I really dont think bitcoin is going to be a day2day currency

[AlbertKing]

The confirmation time is way too long, that's the Achilles' heel.

Imagine you wanna buy a bottle of milk, would you like to wait in the counter for 50mins just to get 5 confirmations? That's ridiculous.

So there is the off chain transaction. We need a trusted third party for that to work right? Then what's the point to creat a p2p cryptocurrency? Why don't we just use some company's own crypto currency instead? what's the difference?

Does anyone has the idea of how to really solve this problem?



Edit:

I think the question is better said like this:

How can we make bitcoin transaction quick enough to support a day2day use, without involvment of the gov or any kinds of third party, to ensure you can do it anywhere globally, and still keep it anonymously?

[Desensitizer]

I think the idea is that it is the same as credit card fraud. It is a possibility for credit card fraud to occur but people do not perform it often and thus checks are not issued to verify credit cards every time you swipe. In the same sense, a small to medium size bitcoin transaction could allow confidence after the payment was shown but confirmations had not occurred. Alternatively, alongside a bitcoin payment a personal identifier/agreement could be attached to insure repercussions if a payment was somehow faked. Two potential resolutions to that issue.

[yenom]

You need to understand bitcoin to make assumptions like that. Waiting time is an agreement between buyer and seller. The transactions is acutally seen on the network within seconds, so for a pint of milk, retailers could simply wait until the transaction is "seen" and take the risk that the transaction is undone. For buying a car or a house, yes you might have to wait 10-30 minutes, or even the full hour. As each block is generated the likelihood of the transaction becoming undone get exponentially lower, esp with the huge hashing power of the bitcoin network.

[TheFootMan]

Does it stand any chance as a night2night currency? Perhaps in the grey market on thedark web that's only roamed in the odd hours?

[AlbertKing]

While for credit card you got your credit records, but for bitcoin, no.

About the attached id, that may work however it do need the goverment to step in.

I think the question is better said like this:

How can we make bitcoin transaction quick enough to support a day2day use, without involvment of the gov or any kinds of third party, to ensure you can do it anywhere globally, and still keep it anonymously?

I think the idea is that it is the same as credit card fraud. It is a possibility for credit card fraud to occur but people do not perform it often and thus checks are not issued to verify credit cards every time you swipe. In the same sense, a small to medium size bitcoin transaction could allow confidence after the payment was shown but confirmations had not occurred. Alternatively, alongside a bitcoin payment a personal identifier/agreement could be attached to insure repercussions if a payment was somehow faked. Two potential resolutions to that issue.

[AlbertKing]

I won't be surprised if we see some wallet software/pluggin designed specially for a convenient double spend to emerge. If it's easy to use and people can do it anonymously/without consequence, then please expect to see the dark side of humankind.

You need to understand bitcoin to make assumptions like that. Waiting time is an agreement between buyer and seller. The transactions is acutally seen on the network within seconds, so for a pint of milk, retailers could simply wait until the transaction is "seen" and take the risk that the transaction is undone. For buying a car or a house, yes you might have to wait 10-30 minutes, or even the full hour. As each block is generated the likelihood of the transaction becoming undone get exponentially lower, esp with the huge hashing power of the bitcoin network.

[franky1]

i love how people exadjurate confirm times required to process a transaction

imagine bitcoin replaced the common banking system (we know it wont, but it can certainly work alongside)

people can store their funds in safety deposit boxes (personal wallet clients)

for ease of use they would put their funds into bank accounts/card issuer EG a certain amount of satoshi's into a third party escrow services/offchain transaction service that's pre-confirmed at deposit, allowing for instant transactions.

then the third party service/bank can move funds across the world instantly to compensate the retailer/recipient and they can be sure its confirmed at the very worse 10 minutes.

[zimmah]

You don't have to wait for confirmations, especially not for a bottle of milk.

Maybe when you sell a Lamborghini you may need to wait for 1 or 2 confirmations, but anything less than $1000 you can just do with unconfirmed transaction.

The changes of someone messing up with the transaction is much smaller than the change of someone committing chargeback fraud, and you don't hear anyone complaining about needed to wait for 20 years for a VISA transaction because of chargeback risks

[justusranvier]

Does anyone has the idea of how to really solve this problem?

Step 1: Learn how to use the Search function.
Step 2: Maybe check the wiki.

[Coin_Master]

The confirmation time is way too long, that's the Achilles' heel.

Imagine you wanna buy a bottle of milk, would you like to wait in the counter for 50mins just to get 5 confirmations? That's ridiculous.

So there is the off chain transaction. We need a trusted third party for that to work right? Then what's the point to creat a p2p cryptocurrency? Why don't we just use some company's own crypto currency instead? what's the difference?

Does anyone has the idea of how to really solve this problem?

Why would you buy a bottle of milk with something that costs 1000 USD?  Bitcoin may have been intended for small value items originally, but that is no longer the case.  Today it makes more sense to use Bitcoin to buy houses and Lamborghinis (yes they accept Bitcoin as payment now).  While Litecoin could be used to buy televisions and household appliances, and perhaps a faster more lightweight coin like Feathercoin could be used for everyday items such as milk.  Think of it as a tool, you "could" drive to the shop in a Truck/18 wheel tractor trailer unit but it would make more sense to drive a sports car (you have to use the right tool for the job)

[AlbertKing]

Thank you and yes I won't put some bullshit here before I do the research and check wiki.
And no I don't think the problem is solved.

Does anyone has the idea of how to really solve this problem?

Step 1: Learn how to use the Search function.
Step 2: Maybe check the wiki.

[AlbertKing]

do you want to use credit card for cars, dollar for tv and JPY for milk?
if the answer is yes, then maybe your way is doable:)

[/quote]
Why would you buy a bottle of milk with something that costs 1000 USD?  Bitcoin may have been intended for small value items originally, but that is no longer the case.  Today it makes more sense to use Bitcoin to buy houses and Lamborghini's (yes they accept Bitcoin as payment now).  While Litecoin could be used to buy televisions and household appliances, and perhaps a faster more lightweight coin like Feathercoin could be used for everyday items such as milk.  Think of it as a tool, you 'could' drive to the shop in a Truck/18 wheel tractor trailer unit but it would make more sense to drive a sports car (you have to use the right tool for the job)
[/quote]

[crazy_rabbit]

The confirmation time is way too long, that's the Achilles' heel.

Imagine you wanna buy a bottle of milk, would you like to wait in the counter for 50mins just to get 5 confirmations? That's ridiculous.

So there is the off chain transaction. We need a trusted third party for that to work right? Then what's the point to creat a p2p cryptocurrency? Why don't we just use some company's own crypto currency instead? what's the difference?

Does anyone has the idea of how to really solve this problem?



Edit:

I think the question is better said like this:

How can we make bitcoin transaction quick enough to support a day2day use, without involvment of the gov or any kinds of third party, to ensure you can do it anywhere globally, and still keep it anonymously?

Anything cheap- you can get by with zero confirmations. A broadcast is enough if you are buying a bottle of milk. Remember the number of people who scam using Checks or Credit Cards or counterfeit money is quite high- higher then the risk of a double spends.

Anything expensive, you can be willing to wait for more confirmations. If you are spending $100000 on a Lamborigni, no one will fault you for enjoying a cup of coffee while waiting to hit 3 confirmations. You can fill out the paperwork during that time. Or $2 Million dollar home, you can wait 30 minutes filling out the insurance or popping open a bottle of bubbly to celebrate.

Everything in proportion to what you are doing. If it's $1 transaction a broadcast is enough, if it's $1million dollars then you have the time to wait for 6 confirmations. If you don't- something shady is 'probably' going on anyway, and most people spending a million dollars won't fall into the category.

[davida]

Why would you buy a bottle of milk with something that costs 1000 USD?  Bitcoin may have been intended for small value items originally, but that is no longer the case.  Today it makes more sense to use Bitcoin to buy houses and Lamborghini's (yes they accept Bitcoin as payment now).  While Litecoin could be used to buy televisions and household appliances, and perhaps a faster more lightweight coin like Feathercoin could be used for everyday items such as milk.  Think of it as a tool, you 'could' drive to the shop in a Truck/18 wheel tractor trailer unit but it would make more sense to drive a sports car (you have to use the right tool for the job)

You clearly have never used bitcoin nor do you understand how it functions.

i love how people exadjurate confirm times required to process a transaction

imagine bitcoin replaced the common banking system (we know it wont, but it can certainly work alongside)

people can store their funds in safety deposit boxes (personal wallet clients)

for ease of use they would put their funds into bank accounts/card issuer EG a certain amount of satoshi's into a third party escrow services/offchain transaction service that's pre-confirmed at deposit, allowing for instant transactions.

then the third party service/bank can move funds across the world instantly to compensate the retailer/recipient and they can be sure its confirmed at the very worse 10 minutes.

This is my dream... Forget gold standard (just like the governments have done), the day 'bitcoin standard' becomes common place and treated as a worldwide currency... I can see it now; universally accepted paper money backed by REAL bitcoin (not government lies), pre-paid debit cards containing REAL bitcoin (yes albeit controlled and held by by a third party, all the smaller transactions will be done off-chain) , heck why not have credit cards, loans, mortgages, 5% interest on deposits... Yes, i know i'm basically describing a bank, but the big difference is everyone is no longer relying on only a fiat currency that the world governments can print/devalue at will.  

Obviously the lending and interest on deposits part of this idea would only work if the value of bitcoin remained stable compared to the rest of the fait currencies, which is a problem i guess, so the only solution would be for bitcoin to become the only trusted currency (which isn't impossible, but not likely any time soon) - wages, taxes and all sales/purchases transacted in bitcoin, only then would that work.. I know it's unlikey but not impossible... i suppose that's why i called it a 'dream'.

It's a shame there are so many people who will blindly use fiat currency without stopping to question, why year upon year does my money become worth LESS AND LESS??

[hilariousandco]

You need to understand bitcoin to make assumptions like that. Waiting time is an agreement between buyer and seller. The transactions is acutally seen on the network within seconds, so for a pint of milk, retailers could simply wait until the transaction is "seen" and take the risk that the transaction is undone. For buying a car or a house, yes you might have to wait 10-30 minutes, or even the full hour. As each block is generated the likelihood of the transaction becoming undone get exponentially lower, esp with the huge hashing power of the bitcoin network.

This. Merchants will also probably use a payment processor service which will insure against bounced payments and such.

Does it stand any chance as a night2night currency? Perhaps in the grey market on thedark web that's only roamed in the odd hours?

 

[bitly]

I think the OP has a valid point. Anything requiring a third party goes against bitcoin's philosophy.

[hilariousandco]

I think the OP has a valid point. Anything requiring a third party goes against bitcoin's philosophy.

I don't think so, but for mainstream acceptance a little help from businesses is going to be needed. With anything that becomes popular capitalists will try to capitalise from it. People can chose not to pay with third-party merchants and just use straight transfer.

[bitly]

I think the OP has a valid point. Anything requiring a third party goes against bitcoin's philosophy.

I don't think so, but for mainstream acceptance a little help from businesses is going to be needed. With anything that becomes popular capitalists will try to capitalise from it. People can chose not to pay with third-party merchants and just use straight transfer.

You also have a valid point. But on the other hand, having third part processors negates some advantages Bitcoins have, such as no chargeback...

[hilariousandco]

I think the OP has a valid point. Anything requiring a third party goes against bitcoin's philosophy.

I don't think so, but for mainstream acceptance a little help from businesses is going to be needed. With anything that becomes popular capitalists will try to capitalise from it. People can chose not to pay with third-party merchants and just use straight transfer.

You also have a valid point. But on the other hand, having third part processors negates some advantages Bitcoins have, such as no chargeback...

True, but the payment processors would probably insure against this if it happened. I also don't think double-spending is such a big issue, as long as you get one confirmation you should be able to accept that it's a done deal.

[FalconFly]

I don't think BTC in its current form is ready or coming to mainstream anytime....

Reasons :

(Edit : - my bad, invalid argument - )

- 256bit encryption

Good for now and an unknown number or years into the future. Eventually it will be hacked by design (depends on how many enemies it has [hint : ALOT already] and available technology).
Given sufficient evil intent, unlimited FIAT (state agencies/governments/banks), it is basically already very vulnerable to various attacks already. No showstoppers so far, but easily enough to significantly shake the trust in the system - which by design is its main backstop.
Multibit Quantum computers today are scarse and very expensive experimental toys even for big universities. Not sure how many years it would take determined governments to take some of the unlimited central bank FIAT into their hands to build a machine with the needed capabilities - but in terms of time I'm afraid we're not too far away from it.

Expiration empirically inevitable.

- cumbersome and techy/for the geeks only

In its current and forseeable usability state, Joe Sixpack will never ever understand how it works and therefor will not use it.
It's a few years in use now and the Software/Hardware architecture to both mine BTC as well as spend BTC or exchange BTC/FIAT is best compared to linux shell scripting or something similar. Yes, it can be "easily" done after a little research, but it's miles away from the usability of a coke can/screw bottle needed that every kid can handle.
There isn't a single "one size fits all", easy to use yet secure Software package at allows for all its core functions in all aspects.

Just getting everything ready to mine a few and a working wallet felt like browsing SourceForge repositories to find a patchwork of software to get something done I need. Works and is for free, but the folks out there aren't like us in that respect. They're more the kind of people who would contact us to help them with their computer problems.

- every transaction is stored indefinitely in the blockchain

*uhm*... dafuq ? In times of the "great espionage" of governments against their property (citizens) on a scale unseen before in human history (and we barely know the tip of the iceberg), that's not a sign of quality for me and doesn't help trusting the current BTC concept.
If identifyable, that's literally the wet dream of all central bankers & most governments on this planet. These are 100% certified not on my side of the boat so to speak.
We're not quite there yet, but dangerously close - the road there is bright lit and hints the sheeple herds are walking on that very road pop up literally every week.
Going with its own philosophy, I would have expected BTC to go exactly the opposite direction.

- BTC is unregulated digital FIAT

There's nothing backing or supporting BTC conversion value except its potential functions/uses and associated qualities. Those DO have a value, that depends on those needing to utilize them (i.e. use of unregulated transfer of "money" across the globe).
Other than that (especially looking at all those newer alt coins, most of which look like ripoff pyramid scheme restarts), it does have alot of similiarities to a ponzi (a few early adopters got rich [IMHO most rightfully so as they took great risks], while by design a great mass of late-adopters can't. Must be said, however, that this mostly is a mining specific issue.
The BTC conversion value is subject to speculation not much unlike Wall St (again, those that held on their BTC took great risk and won, gotta respect that IMHO).

Although genius from a mathematical point of view, I am extremely wary of this possibility simply due to the design. In it - for my taste - too many indicators mathematically point to and work towards supporting and achieving a near-parabolic price rise. The shiny light at the end, indicating fictional terminal value that too easily puts $$$ into common folks eyes and acts like a street light to a moth. The very design of the entire 24Mio BTC growth system appears (at least to me) to plant the seeds of greed, it acts purely as an attractor with the increasing mining difficulty "labour/work" substitute mimicing value to its best abilities (while in terms of mathematically projected difficulty by far the largest part of BTC will have been mined at relatively miniscule diff -> another well-placed ponzi similarity).

Regulation can easily come from intervening with Providers and ISPs anytime the global banking mafia deems fit, they own most western governments. Those could for sure be worked around at the price of increased efforts, but it would shrink the viable userbase well below critical mass needed to maintain a functional and usable BTC infrastructure.

- BTC in terms of physical valuation (core valuation regardless of time, age, issuer or intended use)

Always remember it's just 0's and 1's somewhere in the digital world made up by someone by design, based only on trust of its community in its future viability (another strikingly similarity to central-bank issued FIAT, and in times of failing trust FIAT "trust" can and has been replaced by the fallback "law/enforcement" anytime).
Not much unlike all those international M2 amounts of central-bank issued debt notes, but these are the holy grail of the world controllers that run the show since centuries (if you want to call 'em that).
When it comes to powerplay and a head-to-head scenario... no competition, it's a somewhat smart guppy vs. all international Carrier Battle groups combined.

So if anyone is looking at a potential "killer switch" for BTC, IMHO look no further than your own governments - what they don't know they can't control -> they can't tax aka steal. Hence, they will either want to know&control or eventually intervene, period. It's their lifeblood and they'd kill and rage wars against anything or anyone without hesitation to ensure or restore it. Count on it, their greed and corruption is by far more secure and deep-nested than the amen in a christian church. Try to circumvent them enough to having their evil eye pointing on you working on their very foundation of power - good luck & god speed... You'll need it.

Similarities to the "Globo" international digital currency concepts also don't give me a warm fuzzy feeling.
Having people actually work whole lifetimes (even steal or kill) for small bunches of printed paper is one thing (native indians received glass marbles for their land, which at that time were in high demand/no supply to them, the modern system slave receives paper & digital bank accounts).
Setting the stage for a NWO where Billions of people work their entire lifes (or steal or even kill) for virtual 0's and 1's is a new level though...

BTC may or may not be a test ballon, the timing of BTC IMHO smells like a test ballon to me. Nothing structurally so fundamental happens by chance in the global financial system, so the "qui bono" question IMHO would point at a result not in favor of BTC.

But still, for as long as you don't bet your life savings on it - it's a great adventure. Just be careful, fearless adventurer, and have a rock solid exit strategy...

PS.
I do support the BTC philosophy 100%, so although my arguments/lines of thought may appear I'm a notorious BTC critic - that is not the case.
I wish that system (its ideas and visions) the best of luck, I'm simply sceptical of its ability to survive against extremely potent enemies and technology in the long run.
Fundamental changes to its infrastructure could render most of my arguments invalid at any time.