Bitcoin and Islam

[darkmule]

This is sort of prompted by the existence of this thread on a specific service called the Islamic Bank of Bitcoin but probably deserves its own thread.

Islam, depending on how you count, is either the largest or the second-largest religion in the world, following Christianity, and indubitably the largest expanding religion in the world.

Islam has a number of interesting rules relating to money (actually somewhat resembling rules Christianity used to follow).  Essentially, interest and gambling are haram (forbidden).  However, the loan service in the thread I linked loans out Bitcoin, and receives payment back in the form of an identical amount of Bitcoin.  This, at least on its surface, avoids the Islamic rule against interest, even though generally, Bitcoin is going to be worth a lot more when you get it back then it was when you loaned it.

This strikes me as potentially violating the rule that gambling is also haram.  However, if this rule were interpreted as strictly as this, it would forbid investing in stocks, bonds, pretty much anything that might increase or decrease in value.  Since many Muslims do these things, and as far as I know, no prominent cleric has denounced them, it seems this is, at least possibly, entirely consistent with Islamic law.

So, my idea, to get to it, is this.  The Islamic world is one of the biggest in the world.  Countries where Islam is the primary religion sometimes have exactly the kind of fiat currency problems that Bitcoin addresses.  A few fatwas (simply statements from a cleric about a religious question) that Bitcoin isn't haram would really open up these markets.

As far as I can tell, the use of Bitcoin is actually entirely consistent with Islam.  It's a bigger market than China.

Anyway, I'll just leave this here.

If you happen to know a prominent Islamic cleric, or know someone who knows one, consider posing this question to them and inviting a fatwa.  Note:  Islam is not hierarchical in structure, as such, and there is no "Pope" of Islam.  Therefore, an opinion would really only be binding or even of interest to followers of that particular school.  

[bryant.coleman]

Islam might be the 2nd largest religion in terms of followers, but I don't think that the Muslim bitcoiners represent more than 1% of all active Bitcoiners.

[Honeypot]

They better learn to watch their mouth first before bothering with bitcoin.

[Wilikon]

They better learn to watch their mouth first before bothering with bitcoin.

No Fatwa against bitcoin = everything is GO!. Fatwa against Islam = time to pick up your marbles.

That's it really.

[beetcoin]

if islam were to adopt bitcoin, wouldn't it possibly be bad news? the american special interest groups that are against BTC would use muslim/arab xenophobia to gain support from people to ban bitcoins, if they wanted to. i can already see the headlines on fox news.. "bitcoin aiding terrorism?"

i know we're all going to say that fiat is used to fund terrorism more than anything, but that doesn't matter.. crazy people will always think that bitcoin is drug money.

[PrintMule]

if islam were to adopt bitcoin, wouldn't it possibly be bad news? the american special interest groups that are against BTC would use muslim/arab xenophobia to gain support from people to ban bitcoins, if they wanted to. i can already see the headlines on fox news.. "bitcoin aiding terrorism?"

i know we're all going to say that fiat is used to fund terrorism more than anything, but that doesn't matter.. crazy people will always think that bitcoin is drug money.

If they are lagging behind rest of the world, then no one would consider them a treat. Also technological level over there is lacking. If anyone could pull it off, I would believe - China or Korea or maaaaaybe Japan. Something exotic and advanced. Without many problems that other countries have.

[Kenshin]

if islam were to adopt bitcoin, wouldn't it possibly be bad news? the american special interest groups that are against BTC would use muslim/arab xenophobia to gain support from people to ban bitcoins, if they wanted to. i can already see the headlines on fox news.. "bitcoin aiding terrorism?"

i know we're all going to say that fiat is used to fund terrorism more than anything, but that doesn't matter.. crazy people will always think that bitcoin is drug money.

Terrorism and Islam isn't the same thing.

[Wilikon]

https://ripple.com/  ? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6tB_DmpMOI

[beetcoin]

if islam were to adopt bitcoin, wouldn't it possibly be bad news? the american special interest groups that are against BTC would use muslim/arab xenophobia to gain support from people to ban bitcoins, if they wanted to. i can already see the headlines on fox news.. "bitcoin aiding terrorism?"

i know we're all going to say that fiat is used to fund terrorism more than anything, but that doesn't matter.. crazy people will always think that bitcoin is drug money.

Terrorism and Islam isn't the same thing.

your comment was pre-empted. read the second paragraph.

if islam were to adopt bitcoin, wouldn't it possibly be bad news? the american special interest groups that are against BTC would use muslim/arab xenophobia to gain support from people to ban bitcoins, if they wanted to. i can already see the headlines on fox news.. "bitcoin aiding terrorism?"

i know we're all going to say that fiat is used to fund terrorism more than anything, but that doesn't matter.. crazy people will always think that bitcoin is drug money.

If they are lagging behind rest of the world, then no one would consider them a treat. Also technological level over there is lacking. If anyone could pull it off, I would believe - China or Korea or maaaaaybe Japan. Something exotic and advanced. Without many problems that other countries have.

doesn't matter whether terrorism is considered a threat, the state uses it as an excuse to do whatever the fuck it wants.

[PrintMule]

if islam were to adopt bitcoin, wouldn't it possibly be bad news? the american special interest groups that are against BTC would use muslim/arab xenophobia to gain support from people to ban bitcoins, if they wanted to. i can already see the headlines on fox news.. "bitcoin aiding terrorism?"

i know we're all going to say that fiat is used to fund terrorism more than anything, but that doesn't matter.. crazy people will always think that bitcoin is drug money.

Terrorism and Islam isn't the same thing.

your comment was pre-empted. read the second paragraph.

if islam were to adopt bitcoin, wouldn't it possibly be bad news? the american special interest groups that are against BTC would use muslim/arab xenophobia to gain support from people to ban bitcoins, if they wanted to. i can already see the headlines on fox news.. "bitcoin aiding terrorism?"

i know we're all going to say that fiat is used to fund terrorism more than anything, but that doesn't matter.. crazy people will always think that bitcoin is drug money.

If they are lagging behind rest of the world, then no one would consider them a treat. Also technological level over there is lacking. If anyone could pull it off, I would believe - China or Korea or maaaaaybe Japan. Something exotic and advanced. Without many problems that other countries have.

doesn't matter whether terrorism is considered a threat, the state uses it as an excuse to do whatever the fuck it wants.

Your scenario could work (kind of) if North Korea or Iran would adopt bitcoin. Then US media could play on some (patriotism?) strings or something.

[darkmule]

if islam were to adopt bitcoin, wouldn't it possibly be bad news?

Islam itself couldn't adopt Bitcoin, because there isn't anything like a "Pope of Islam" who can make Muslims do anything.  However, a lot of Muslims are in countries where the governments engage in the worst forms of abuse of fiat currency that make Bitcoin popular among nerds here in primarily Christian countries.

Frankly, anything that gets smart people anywhere, of whatever religion, into Bitcoin and therefore, on the Internet, can't possibly fail to help the world.  And fuck what governments think about that, or their fraudulent agendas.

[bryant.coleman]

Islam itself couldn't adopt Bitcoin, because there isn't anything like a "Pope of Islam" who can make Muslims do anything.  However, a lot of Muslims are in countries where the governments engage in the worst forms of abuse of fiat currency that make Bitcoin popular among nerds here in primarily Christian countries.

Frankly, anything that gets smart people anywhere, of whatever religion, into Bitcoin and therefore, on the Internet, can't possibly fail to help the world.  And fuck what governments think about that, or their fraudulent agendas.

Muslim banking rules are quite complex and everything should adhere to the Sharia'a law. I don't think Bitcoin will comply with all of their rules. I am not sure, someone with more knowledge on this subject can comment.

[darkmule]

Muslim banking rules are quite complex and everything should adhere to the Sharia'a law. I don't think Bitcoin will comply with all of their rules. I am not sure, someone with more knowledge on this subject can comment.

Which Sharia, though?  There are many schools of Islamic jurisprudence.

[bryant.coleman]

Which Sharia, though?  There are many schools of Islamic jurisprudence.

That depends on the particular Islamic subgroup. I don't think that there can be a single Islamic Bitcoin authority. Various divisions will have (in future?) authorities of their own.

[Wilikon]

There is no one Pope in Islam. They have many many Popes interpreting sharia laws. that is why you have cases with Salman Rushdie or the cartoonist from Denmark. No Muslims cared about those cartoons until Mohammed Yousaf Qureshi, prayer leader at the historic Mohabat Khan mosque in the conservative northwestern city of Peshawar, announced the mosque and the Jamia Ashrafia religious school he leads would give a $25,000 reward and a car for killing the cartoonist who drew the prophet caricatures — considered blasphemous by Muslims.

It would be a very positive move if Muslims using bitcoin would talk early to their Imam before another Mohammed Yousaf Qureshi decides the fate of bitcoin, by himself.

Of course if any Muslims have direct connections to various powerful and rich Qatari into falconery even better 

[darkmule]

There is no one Pope in Islam. They have many many Popes interpreting sharia laws. that is why you have cases with Salman Rushdie

Salman Rushdie is my favorite particular example of stupid fatwas.  The Satanic Verses supposedly insults Mohammed.  Anyone who has read it knows it doesn't.  It does have two particularly pointed parodies of specific people, though.  

One character is obviously a parody of the Ayatollah Khomeini, who just coincidentally issued the fatwa calling for Rushdie's death.  Another is a parody of Cat Stevens, now calling himself Yusuf Islam.  What a surprise that he is also one of the other vocal supporters of the fatwa.

Basically, two Muslims got butthurt about being satirized in a brilliant novel, and then called for the murder of the author of the satire.

This has little to do with Islam itself, and a lot to do with theocracy and the ability of egotistical assholes to get buttmad about anything and everything.

[darkmule]

Muslim banking rules are quite complex and everything should adhere to the Sharia'a law. I don't think Bitcoin will comply with all of their rules. I am not sure, someone with more knowledge on this subject can comment.

Agreed, but business-savvy Muslims do manage to bank.  Kosher rules on diet are also quite complex, and yet Orthodox Jews manage to eat.

My suggestion is simply that it might be a good idea for any Muslim who is pro-Bitcoin and knows someone with authority to issue a fatwa and who is likely to issue a favorable one should go ahead and do it.  Muslims are generally hostile to the way Western banking operates, and frankly, for good reason, and Bitcoin actually lacks many of the characteristics that makes Western banking standards haram (forbidden). 

This is not only an enormous market, but a potential area where cultures that generally clash could be brought together in agreement on a fundamental issue (money and what it means).

[Wilikon]

Muslim banking rules are quite complex and everything should adhere to the Sharia'a law. I don't think Bitcoin will comply with all of their rules. I am not sure, someone with more knowledge on this subject can comment.

Agreed, but business-savvy Muslims do manage to bank.  Kosher rules on diet are also quite complex, and yet Orthodox Jews manage to eat.

My suggestion is simply that it might be a good idea for any Muslim who is pro-Bitcoin and knows someone with authority to issue a fatwa and who is likely to issue a favorable one should go ahead and do it.  Muslims are generally hostile to the way Western banking operates, and frankly, for good reason, and Bitcoin actually lacks many of the characteristics that makes Western banking standards haram (forbidden). 

This is not only an enormous market, but a potential area where cultures that generally clash could be brought together in agreement on a fundamental issue (money and what it means).

Is bitcoin4islam.org taken already?

[Hideyoshi]

I know some muslims in person who also buy bitcoin. They see no problem with it. But they do not live in middle east. As for rest of islam, in islamic middle eastern countries, I would not waste much time on them. Their level of technology is very low, and their culture is similar to what rest of world was like during dark ages. Even their banking without interest is stupid, since they avoid breaking the interest law by charging a "fee" to take out a loan. This "fee" that is paid up front just happens to be exactly amount that normal borrowers would pay in interest. They are just lying to themselves to fit themselves into very rigid, and I think stupid, world view.
Once they stop spending so much time on allah, and start spending time on economy, and scientific and technological development, then maybe we can welcome them to 19th or 20th century. But I fear that will not happen until they all run out of oil, which is what is allowing them such luxury of doing nothing but worshiping allah.

[bryant.coleman]

But I fear that will not happen until they all run out of oil, which is what is allowing them such luxury of doing nothing but worshiping allah.

As long as the OPEC is able to buy up the world leaders, they don't have anything to worry. But I don't know for how long this will sustain them. For example, Saudi Arabia's exploding population is already consuming more than 30% of the oil it produces. For comparison, the No.1 oil producer (Russia) exports more than 75% of its crude (mostly as diesel and gasoline).