My experience with waldohoover from Coiningsolutions.com

[malvino]

At the end of October I decided to buy some shares. There were many offers and one of the best was this one:

[OPEN] HashFast Sierra Shares ฿1 = 20GH/s | Ships in Nov *All Miners PAID

Don't ask me why, after reading the terms of the share buy, I thought the mining would start in November, so I hurried up to make the transaction before the month starts (October 31). But after a few days someone asked when will the Sierra be shipped, so I asked when will the mining start. The answer was December.

That wasn't my intention, so I sent Waldo an email explaining that I thought the mining would be on November and if I could have a refund. That was his answer: "Sorry brotha, all miners have been paid for already. So all the BTC is out of my hands. Sorry about that man." What? You say *All Miners PAID, but you spend my BTC in it?

After some emails I told him that in his terms is very clear specified that if the miner wouldn't be shipped in November I would be entitled to get the refund.





His answer was the same: No BTC in hands and wait till the miner comes.

After some days I thought about that and I emailed Waldo again, apologizing (I told him in one email he was cheating) and trying to find a way to resolve that. My propose was that at this time (November 11th) his price wasn't competitive, he must lower the prices, so when he will do that he could make this offer to me too (assigning more GH/s or refunding the difference). This way both give in to something. What was his answer? "I'm going to make my formal announcement tomorrow.. but I will be making shares now 0.8BTC for 20GH/s- this will be for FUTURE purchased shares starting tomorrow." I will make that but not for you. Nice…

So I waited till December 1st and requested my refund. His answer was: "HashFast dates moved to Dec 31- If they do not ship they will refund, then I will refund all share holders once I get that." Where did you put that on your terms?

One thing is the terms between Hashfast and you, and other the terms between me and you (coiningsolutions). I made a contract with you, not with Hashfast.

You specified that the miner was paid (with your money) and you sell shares of this machine that would be shipped in November. If it's not delivered you'll refund the money (-3%). Is what you said in this post and it's the reason I gave you 1 BTC. So we can resume that in some points:

- Miners were paid:
If that is true you'll still have the BTC the people gave to you. Maybe you lied? If not why don't you make a refund? What are you doing with our Bitcoins?
-
Quote
Refunds will be given in case of non-delivery less 3% for management of the Group Buy.
If the machine wasn't shipped in November as you announced that's non-delivery. If for you "non-delivery" is 2014, 2015 or 2020 you must specified that. On the paper, no miner shipped on november -> non-delivery -> refund.

I don't know the terms of other group buys you made, but for this one things are very clear… Aren't?

I'm with malvino on this. You bought the miners and then made promises to us. You said you would refund us if they didn't deliver by the time you promised, they didn't deliver by the late November as you stated so you should honor your word and refund us our btc. You will still get the hashing power from the refunded shares plus the 3%. Our agreement was with you, not hashfast. I realize that it sucks for you but unless you bought the btc used to buy the miner for more than $125 per btc in you are still coming out ahead. Do the right thing and offer refunds.

While all this happened, Waldo is buying more miners (November 26th): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=347907.0 Wasn't all BTC out of your hands?

The last post I wrote on the thread was this:

(Dec-10) I ask you once again and all the people is defending you to tell me where in your terms is written that the refund will be on December 31st. If you show me that I'll shut up. If you write some terms you must fulfill them, that's the way contracts are made.

(Dec-12) And? What is your answer? Silence… (or wait till December 31st, but this isn't an answer with valid arguments)

Well, this is the whole story. Here's the thread starting with my first post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=300992.msg3444214#msg3444214

Buying a share is a contract with the terms that are written and both parts must fulfill them. I think one part is not making that…

Make your own conclusions…

(Sorry for my english) 

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[LittleD]

I am part of a couple different GroupBuys... I'm curious what some of the Account GB admin's think about this thread

*Please feel free to give your opinion GB Admins :?)
List of some GB Account Admins (Admins I trust):
~DyslexicZombei 
~soniq
~Ultibit 
~SebastianJu
~CanaryInTheMine
~waldohoover

What should GB Admins do different concerning Refund/wording of contracts/delays/dates/etc. ?
Thanks guys and Thanks malvino for making this thread. (We share holders should keep our account Admins accountable and honest)

[amer]

Per the TOS on HashFast's site on 9/22/2013, Sierra's are guaranteed to be delivered by Jan 31, 2014. I think waldohoover made a mistake by telling you the deadline for the BabyJet Batch 1 shipments. That being said, HashFast has not "not delivered yet". They made everyone think that it was November and they were wrong, but the Sept 22 TOS does say "by Jan 31" for refunds, so they are late and that sucks.

That being said, on 10/30, you paid $208 for 20GH. That's $10.40/GH - still better than anything currently shipping and better than a bunch of group buys still open today.

I think lots of people are upset that they were led on to believe investing in mining would be better than just buying Bitcoin, but that's just a gamble many made and some of us lost. That's not someone else's fault, that's a judgment call you made based on a group buy of pre-order hardware.

Group Buys are just "hey, let's all pool our money together and buy this expensive thing, hopefully it works out!" You're not being singled out, Hashfast is late and everyone who trusted them with their money is feeling the pain. (I'm right there with you).

[yomamanodros]

The problem with waldohoover was that when we started asking questions about the terms that we all agreed to, he responded with silence and when he did comment in the thread, he refused to address any of our concerns. Communication is the key element of these Group Buys that seems to be ignored when things aren't going well.  DyslexicZombie's co-op should be the model that other group buy coordinators strive for when it comes to communication.  They are always publicly responding to every single concern that is brought up.

[amer]

The problem with waldohoover was that when we started asking questions about the terms that we all agreed to, he responded with silence and when he did comment in the thread, he refused to address any of our concerns. Communication is the key element of these Group Buys that seems to be ignored when things aren't going well.  DyslexicZombie's co-op should be the model that other group buy coordinators strive for when it comes to communication.  They are always publicly responding to every single concern that is brought up.

I totally agree that communication is one of the most under-appreciated parts of business, which is unfortunate considering how important it is and the impact it has. It's unusually bad across all Bitcoin mining operations on these forums. (That being said, I am not making a comment about waldohoover because I've never dealt with him/her)

[LittleD]

The problem with waldohoover was that when we started asking questions about the terms that we all agreed to, he responded with silence and when he did comment in the thread, he refused to address any of our concerns. Communication is the key element of these Group Buys that seems to be ignored when things aren't going well.  DyslexicZombie's co-op should be the model that other group buy coordinators strive for when it comes to communication.  They are always publicly responding to every single concern that is brought up.

I totally agree that communication is one of the most under-appreciated parts of business, which is unfortunate considering how important it is and the impact it has. It's unusually bad across all Bitcoin mining operations on these forums. (That being said, I am not making a comment about waldohoover because I've never dealt with him/her)

hear! hear! This is exactly what we mean :!) GB admins need to respond to share holder concerns and communicate if something goes wrong or you gave some wrong info on your contract agreement. And YES! DZ does have a Good Model of GBs

[malvino]

The problem with waldohoover was that when we started asking questions about the terms that we all agreed to, he responded with silence and when he did comment in the thread, he refused to address any of our concerns. Communication is the key element of these Group Buys that seems to be ignored when things aren't going well.  DyslexicZombie's co-op should be the model that other group buy coordinators strive for when it comes to communication.  They are always publicly responding to every single concern that is brought up.

+1 

[LittleD]

When waldohoover posted the offer, the terms were pretty clear.  He collects BTC from each person who wants to participate, he uses that BTC to purchase a miner, he then runs the miner for as long as there is a profit (or max 30 months), he then divides any BTC mined per share to each person.  He also said he takes no responsibility of HashFast does not deliver.  That statement is in no uncertain terms.  He has absolutely no control over HashFast.

There is a statement that refunds will be delivered in the event of a non-delivery.  However, "non-delivery" could be interpreted to mean "delivery by the date the manufacturer stated" or it can be interpreted to mean "it is never delivered".  In any case, while even I cannot state in certain terms what qualifies as non-delivery, logic would suggest that there was a shipment guarantee date.  HashFast definitely does that.  What folks have said was the guarantee date was December 31.  If it was sooner than that, then waldohoover would likely have already asked HashFast for a refund (after polling the shareholders).  He certainly has nothing personally to gain by sitting on his hands.  Logic would therefore suggest he cannot yet request a refund.

In any case, I think it's really poor form to pick over every word in the offer.

The point we were making is that the terms were not actually clear at all.  He stated from the beginning that all miners were already paid for.  He wasn't collecting money to buy miners, he was collecting money to reimburse himself.  He called it a group buy, but the title of the thread stated that the miners were already paid for.

Also, there was no where in the terms that stated that Dec. 31 was the guaranteed delivery date, the only date mentioned was the end of November.  When I bought my shares I was under the impression that delivery was by the end of Nov. or refund or waiting was an option.  Had I known the actual guaranteed delivery date was the end of Dec, I would have taken my money elsewhere.  I passed on other GBs with much better terms for late Dec early Jan deliveries for one that I thought would refund me if it wasn't delivered by the end of Nov.

I was much more upset with waldohoovers lack of communication than I was with not getting a refund.  Once we started asking for clarification of the terms, waldo stopped responding with any details at all.  Personally I would have been fine with it if he had just said that he made a mistake by not including the manufacturer's guaranteed delivery date.  

I am willing to wait and I do appreciate what waldo is doing, but he is being compensated for his work and does have a responsibility to those of us who trusted him with our money.  He is getting 3% of every single miner that he runs a group buy for and that is a significant hashrate when you add that all up.  This is why it is important that we hold him to the terms that we all agreed to.  GB coordinators are being trusted with many thousands of dollars and should act like professionals when communicating with their customers.  This is a customer service job as well as a tech job.

I agree that this discussion has gone on too long and this is that last I am going to say about the issue.  Hopefully the miners are not delivered on time and we will get our btc refunds, but if we do get our delivery or the only refund option is US$, I have confidence that waldo will do a good job hosting our miners.

I totally agree with yomamanodros well said bro. i do hope waldo hears our voice and concerns before more and more people start complaining about his lack of communication and service and I will hate to start comparing his company to Butterfly Labs

[+Tatogo+]

Thanks for such an interesting post. We make it clear to all that is what happened.

Many people should read it.

[HadToLookTwice]

I agree. Communication is key.

However, just a warning to anybody considering to join the group buy. Waldo will absolutely not give anybody a refund. I tried backing out a few hours after sending a payment and he refused. He should've mentioned it in the original post but instead he fails to disclose it.

Also I've messaged him yesterday and he has still yet to respond. If there is a better way to keep in contact with you waldo, please let me know. The untimely responses make your group buyers extremely frustrated.

Fellow group buyers, let's keep in touch.

[ninjaboon]

I agree. Communication is key.

However, just a warning to anybody considering to join the group buy. Waldo will absolutely not give anybody a refund. I tried backing out a few hours after sending a payment and he refused. He should've mentioned it in the original post but instead he fails to disclose it.

Also I've messaged him yesterday and he has still yet to respond. If there is a better way to keep in contact with you waldo, please let me know. The untimely responses make your group buyers extremely frustrated.

Fellow group buyers, let's keep in touch.

Communication is essential in any relationship and if it is lacking in any of the GBs, then please raise your concerns and bring your bitcoins elsewhere.
Digital Coin Mining is a high risk business and there are so many things to consider.
I've seen my fair share of scams and dodgy people in the past 1.5 years dealing in bitcoin business.

[HadToLookTwice]

I agree. Communication is key.

However, just a warning to anybody considering to join the group buy. Waldo will absolutely not give anybody a refund. I tried backing out a few hours after sending a payment and he refused. He should've mentioned it in the original post but instead he fails to disclose it.

Also I've messaged him yesterday and he has still yet to respond. If there is a better way to keep in contact with you waldo, please let me know. The untimely responses make your group buyers extremely frustrated.

Fellow group buyers, let's keep in touch.

Communication is essential in any relationship and if it is lacking in any of the GBs, then please raise your concerns and bring your bitcoins elsewhere.
Digital Coin Mining is a high risk business and there are so many things to consider.
I've seen my fair share of scams and dodgy people in the past 1.5 years dealing in bitcoin business.

I got my response but it was basically the same thing. No refunds. I replied to him but he has ignored the message for now. I would love to bring my Bitcoins elsewhere and put it to good use in mining but it's now too late for me. It's ridiculous.

[jamesc760]

I am a shareholder in one of waldohoover's many groupbuys, it's a knc jupiter groupbuy. I had a problem with him increasing his fees from 3% originally to 7-8% AFTER miners arrived and started hashing. Also, I have bought a share in another groupbuy with tyrion and blastbob and they are professional and kept their word, excellent groupbuy admins, I mention them because tyrion&blastbob PAYS higher than waldohoover, exact same hashrate share in both of them, yet tyrion and blastbob pays out more btc every week than waldohoover. Needless to say, I am not a happy camper/shareholder in waldohoover's groupbuy. Oh yeah, one more thing, waldohoover's neighborhood lost power one morning and the miners didn't come back online for almost 4 days, even though power was restored the very same day. No one was reimbursed for the lost days.

Is waldohoover a good guy? I don't doubt for a second that he's a good guy. Will I do another groupbuy with him as the organizer? No way. Can you trust him? You can trust him like you can trust any random person on the Internet. Caveat Emptor.

[jski]

Is waldohoover a good guy? I don't doubt for a second that he's a good guy. Will I do another groupbuy with him as the organizer? No way. Can you trust him? You can trust him like you can trust any random person on the Internet. Caveat Emptor.

I second that emotion.

[jamesc760]

No reputable entity will engage in shady business practices, such as changing terms of agreement after all parties agreed to them or refusing to refund for any reason. Karma is a biatch, you will receive what you dish out, thousand-folds.

I am not singling out waldohoover, I am making a general statement.

It shocks me to see people like ragingazn628 still running groupbuys here. I was lucky enough to get a refund before his groupbuy went bust, leaving many buyers stranded and without refunds. I guess most people don't do their homework before sending in their precious bitcoins to strangers on the forum sites. If you feel something's not right, something is NOT right. Read the groupbuy organizer's original thread about his groupbuy and if you dont' get any bells ringing, red flags waving, some vague uneasiness in the pit of your belly, it's time to start digging in a bit more. If any of these warning signs are there, then stop, go no further, don't even pm or email the groupbuy organizer, there's nothing he/she can say that will address your concern because he will say whatever, spin it his way, to get your btc.

[TheWoodser]

I am part of a couple different GroupBuys... I'm curious what some of the Account GB admin's think about this thread

*Please feel free to give your opinion GB Admins :?)
List of some GB Account Admins (Admins I trust):
~DyslexicZombei 
~soniq
~Ultibit 
~SebastianJu
~CanaryInTheMine
~waldohoover

What should GB Admins do different concerning Refund/wording of contracts/delays/dates/etc. ?
Thanks guys and Thanks malvino for making this thread. (We share holders should keep our account Admins accountable and honest)

Little D,

I am going to chime in even though I am not on your list...(But I am a GB admin)

I wanted to make sure in my GB that refunds would be given IF the manufacture gave a refund.  Honestly, that money has already been spent, Unless the manufacture gives the money back, there is no money to give.....I would offer to let the shareholder sell his share, but that would be on him to complete the transaction.

I feel like this was a misunderstanding between the GB admin and the purchaser.

Woods