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jasonjm (OP)
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December 19, 2013, 07:27:23 AM |
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pretty ridiculous!
there doesn't seem to be one exchange that works correctly / honestly? someone correct me if I am wrong?
half the merchants pull runners and vanish with stuff, or just don't ship stuff
at least 95% of anything to do with mining is a total disaster
Seems like bitcoin is a magnet for scams - and its getting worse not better.
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Stake
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December 19, 2013, 07:35:17 AM |
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Bitcoin has no built-in chargeback mechanism, and this isn't good (myth from source provided below) Why some people think this is bad: Chargebacks are useful for limiting fraud. The person handling your money has a responsibility to prevent fraud. If you buy something on eBay and the seller never ships it, PayPal takes funds from the seller's account and gives you back the money. This strengthens the eBay economy, because people recognize that their risk is limited and are more willing to purchase items from risky sellers. Why it's actually a good thing: Bitcoin is designed such that your money is yours and yours alone. Allowing chargebacks implies that it is possible for another entity to take your money from you. You can have either total ownership rights of your money, or fraud protection, but not both. That said, nothing inherent in the dollar or euro or any other currency is necessary for chargebacks to be possible, and likewise, nothing prevents the creation of PayPal-like services denominated in Bitcoin that provide chargebacks or fraud protection. The statement "The person handling your money has a responsibility to prevent fraud" is still true; the power has been shifted into your own hands. Fraud will always exist. It's up to you to only send bitcoins to trusted entities. It is possible to trust an online identity without ever knowing their physical identity; see the OTC Web of Trust. Obviously it's two fold that Bitcoin is irreversible. We will always see scams be it large or small. The combination of people that don't have morality and want money is fairly high. As you could expect. Source: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths |
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jasonjm (OP)
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December 19, 2013, 07:40:35 AM |
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yeah but it seems like *everything* bitcoin turns out to be a scam in some way or another.
I guess anonymous + no charge backs = scammers delight.
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Stake
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December 19, 2013, 07:51:18 AM |
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yeah but it seems like *everything* bitcoin turns out to be a scam in some way or another.
I guess anonymous + no charge backs = scammers delight.
Yep. You just reiterated my in-depth point in ~10 words. There are pros and cons. It's inherent irreversibility is both of which. It's too easy to scam using Bitcoin. But then again Merchants don't deal with fraud (corporations lose billions combined to fraud every year). |
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shesek
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December 19, 2013, 11:08:45 PM |
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One of the interesting use-cases for Bitcoin multi-signature transactions is arbitrated transactions. This allows the buyer/seller to agree ahead of time of an arbitrator that can help resolve disputes and reverse payments, in a way that doesn't put the funds under his full control (unlike an escrow) and does not require him to intervene if the deal ended successfully. Basically, the buyer deposits his payment to a 2-of-3 multisig address controlled by the buyer, seller and arbitrator. To release the payment, two of the three parties have to cooperate and agree on a transaction that spends the funds from the multisig. I recently launched Bitrated, that allows to do exactly that. If you're interested, you can learn more in the FAQ page or in the BitcoinMagazine article. |
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glendall
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Sugars.zone | DatingFi - Earn for Posting
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December 20, 2013, 01:05:38 AM |
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Ya I've been burned so many times. It really sucks.
A community like this starts quite small and the people who are in it are generally technology enthusiasts, you are more interested in the hobby then making money.
But because BTC has exploded, now a days it is just rife with scams. After losing money to that thieving bastard Ukyo (and WeExchange / Bitfunder) in my latest of three times of I've been scammed just this year, I've basically given up on a lot of the Bitcoin economy.
I'm hoping development will continue on decentralized exchanges. For now I've pulled all my resources out of different securities, services and exchanges, because all the fucking scum of the world scammers, like Ukyo for example, have gotten on board bitcoin and are just wrecking it for everyone, making it really hard to trust anyone to do actual legitimate business with.
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jasonjm (OP)
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December 20, 2013, 02:37:40 AM |
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the arbitration idea will turn out to be a scam, watch
some company will get a good rep for arbitration, then when its holding a lot of coins, it will pull a runner
seems like you just can't win (unless you are a scammer, they never seem to get caught or prosecuted).
I would have lost $25 000 if AMEX hadn't backed me up vs butterfly labs.
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shesek
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December 20, 2013, 12:36:31 PM
Last edit: December 20, 2013, 04:08:02 PM by shesek |
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some company will get a good rep for arbitration, then when its holding a lot of coins, it will pull a runner
This isn't that simple when using arbitration with multi-signature and not an escrow. The company providing the arbitration services doesn't have full control over the funds, and cannot do anything with it without the agreement of the buyer or seller. To pull a runner, they would have to get the buyer/seller to agree to participate in the fraud. This is not simple to do in a large scale as it requires them to contact every buyer/seller and ask them to commit fraud, which could easily get published publicly by someone honest that was contacted by them. When it becomes public, the buyers/sellers can just move the funds to a new multisig with another arbitrator. And besides all that - a popular and reputable arbitration company could be making good money from just acting honest and providing arbitration services. I don't think they would destroy their reputation for some quick buck. |
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MPOE-PR
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December 20, 2013, 06:09:52 PM |
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pretty ridiculous!
there doesn't seem to be one exchange that works correctly / honestly? someone correct me if I am wrong?
half the merchants pull runners and vanish with stuff, or just don't ship stuff
at least 95% of anything to do with mining is a total disaster
Seems like bitcoin is a magnet for scams - and its getting worse not better.
See here. No, not everything is a scam. Yes, however, many things are. And yes, they'll always be around, more or less. The key is to arm yourself such that you're impervious. This means reading. A lot. It means listening to those who have been around longer and who've established they know what they're talking about. Even if it grates. This means not using a product or service if your due diligence shows it's not a good choice. Even if it'd be easy to try, even if the operator seems nice. This isn't a problem intrinsic to bitcoin, it's a problem intrinsic to people. The solution is changing yourself, not BTC. Those who can adapt will prosper, and those who refuse will continue to get fleeced. |
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Rawted
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December 20, 2013, 08:09:57 PM |
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I have never and will never scam anyone, so there's one.
I think one of the main problems is irresponsibility.
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BitcoinAccepted
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December 21, 2013, 07:38:15 AM |
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Likewise have never ripped anyone off - its a poor mans game.
On the surface you get richer - but your heart and soul becomes poorer.
I'd rather die a poor man than fuck about with life energy like that.
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not.you
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December 21, 2013, 03:51:01 PM |
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Yeah I am souring on this whole thing myself. I can't even keep from getting ripped off by the big name exchanges so how the hell can I do anything with bitcoin safely? I have been in this for a while but am seriously contemplating selling all of it and waiting for something better to be invented. I always did sort of see bitcoin as the first experiment in this area and now the shortcomings are starting to actually look huge liabilities as my losses mount into the thousands (of dollars). Death and Taxes' Fastcashforbitcoins was the only totally reliable bitcoin service I was aware of and now that its gone it is like nothing but sharks out there.
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reloaded
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December 22, 2013, 12:22:34 PM |
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...
This isn't a problem intrinsic to bitcoin, it's a problem intrinsic to people. The solution is changing yourself, not BTC. Those who can adapt will prosper, and those who refuse will continue to get fleeced.
Bitcoin is made to be used by people, so if it fails to account for basic human characteristics, it fails as a popular currency. "It works for the knowledgeable and those willing to constantly be on guard" pretty much excludes the majority of people. If I have to consult WOT before buying a stick of gum, I simply won't buy it. Ease of use is pretty important for a currency. If the "expert user" defense works, it works much too well. It would show, for instance, that coding in assembler should obsolete every other language, since a knowledgeable coder, given sufficient time and motivation, would produce the tightest code. |
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MPOE-PR
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December 22, 2013, 04:34:04 PM |
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Bitcoin is made to be used by people, so if it fails to account for basic human characteristics, it fails as a popular currency.
"It works for the knowledgeable and those willing to constantly be on guard" pretty much excludes the majority of people. If I have to consult WOT before buying a stick of gum, I simply won't buy it. Ease of use is pretty important for a currency.
Bitcoin isn't for the masses. Things that've been dumbed down to ensure nobody will have to adapt include child-proof pill caps and cleaning products plastered with warnings. Such things don't belong in the world of finance. Inasmuch as "basic human characteristics" consist of blindly groping at everything without taking a moment to read or think, that which is good will fail to account for them, yes. Those who insist on keeping such characteristics intact so as to not have to change and grow will just add to bitcoin's fossil record. If the "expert user" defense works, it works much too well. It would show, for instance, that coding in assembler should obsolete every other language, since a knowledgeable coder, given sufficient time and motivation, would produce the tightest code.
Taking responsibility for yourself and understanding what bitcoin is before doing anything with it aren't exactly insurmountable tasks. Sure, there are brokers, data aggregators, and so forth out there to put some distance between people and the heart of the machine. That doesn't mean it's alright to stop paying attention and flagellate wildly, throwing coins wherever everyone else seems to be doing it. There's no getting around the fact that in order to act in finance, at some point people will have to learn shit. If they can't be bothered, they'll simply stay poor. |
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reloaded
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December 23, 2013, 01:21:36 PM
Last edit: December 23, 2013, 01:39:35 PM by reloaded |
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Bitcoin is made to be used by people, so if it fails to account for basic human characteristics, it fails as a popular currency.
"It works for the knowledgeable and those willing to constantly be on guard" pretty much excludes the majority of people. If I have to consult WOT before buying a stick of gum, I simply won't buy it. Ease of use is pretty important for a currency.
Bitcoin isn't for the masses. Things that've been dumbed down to ensure nobody will have to adapt include child-proof pill caps and cleaning products plastered with warnings. Such things don't belong in the world of finance. Inasmuch as "basic human characteristics" consist of blindly groping at everything without taking a moment to read or think, that which is good will fail to account for them, yes. Those who insist on keeping such characteristics intact so as to not have to change and grow will just add to bitcoin's fossil record. If the "expert user" defense works, it works much too well. It would show, for instance, that coding in assembler should obsolete every other language, since a knowledgeable coder, given sufficient time and motivation, would produce the tightest code.
Taking responsibility for yourself and understanding what bitcoin is before doing anything with it aren't exactly insurmountable tasks. Sure, there are brokers, data aggregators, and so forth out there to put some distance between people and the heart of the machine. That doesn't mean it's alright to stop paying attention and flagellate wildly, throwing coins wherever everyone else seems to be doing it. There's no getting around the fact that in order to act in finance, at some point people will have to learn shit. If they can't be bothered, they'll simply stay poor. If you feel that bitcoin is not for the masses, you have a tenable viewpoint. Of course, it pretty much precludes bitcoin's mass adoption, on which the success of any currency is predicated. Those who "...blindly grop[e] at everything without taking a moment to read or think" are the essential demographic here, one which must be catered to. This must be done not from misplaced love for the mentally weak, but because their wellbeing is a basic economic necessity. The problem with the "let them eat cake" attitude is things tend to end badly for everyone involved. |
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