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Author Topic: Trusted members and The Escrow League  (Read 3675 times)
nelisky
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August 18, 2011, 12:24:35 AM
 #1

Ok, The Escrow League is kinda lame, but this is what I was thinking;

In the process of trying to do business with new members on the forum that may or may not be scammers, those that say "we'll work something out" and then when asked to choose someone trusted to escrow the bitcoins either ask half now half later (what could ever go wrong with this plan?) or appoint another new and unknown member as their trusted counterpart, which for all we know might be the same person. you know who you are, I've come to the conclusion that it's really not fair to ask new members to trust old, known members because, well, the new members don't know them.

It was quite simple back in the days, there were a few very active members that put that extra effort and became known and trusted. Many are still around, so here's my idea... Lets use a thread (this thread?) to state who we trust, and those that get appointed can say if they would be willing to serve as middleman in these potentially shady deals.

There is nothing wrong with the existing escrow services, except I don't know/trust those behind them, so it's square one all over again.

Those that would accept to act as escrow would get a fee, say 0.1%, min 0.1 max 1.0, or something of the kind.

Finally a simple set of conflict resolution rules need to be set... btcs are sent to escrow, and if either seller fails to deliver or buyer says they did, a new thread is opened for proof gathering, so sellers show the proof of having shipped stuff, sellers show proof that what they got isn't what they requested. All members of this 'league' vote and majority wins, either buyer or seller take the coins, no discussions or appeals. If resolution is needed then maybe an extra fee is in order?

Ok, next post I'll put forward some names of those I'd like to see in this league. If your name appears and you don't want it there, or if someone I put there has done you wrong, speak up and it goes away.

Or if you think I'm full of it, I can be convinced to shut up, but this community has done some great things, and scammers are having way too much bandwidth on this forum.
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nelisky
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August 18, 2011, 12:28:56 AM
 #2

Potential members of the league:

davout
Garrett Burgwardt
bencoder
davidonpda
FreeMoney
Gavin Andresen
jgarzik
mndrix
nanotube
noagendamarket

Just to name a few. Additions or removals, just speak your peace.

[edit] Added by self appointment
Garrett Burgwardt (fees 0.5%)
davout (fees 0.25%)
shakaru (fees 0.0%)
BiddingPond.com (fees 4.0%)
payb.tc (fees 1.0% + 0.01 BTC on http://thrucoin.com)

[edit] Added by request
mndrix
nextshare

[edit] removed by request:
The Madhatter
enmaku
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August 18, 2011, 12:35:04 AM
 #3

I'd be more for setting up some kind of web-based escrow service BACKED by human intelligence. Let there be some kind of automated system that covers all undisputed transactions but let humans settle all disputes. Your list is pretty decent so far, and though I don't have much in the way of free time I'm willing to spend some of that free time helping wherever I can. Let me know what becomes of this.

nelisky
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August 18, 2011, 12:40:08 AM
 #4

I'd be more for setting up some kind of web-based escrow service BACKED by human intelligence. Let there be some kind of automated system that covers all undisputed transactions but let humans settle all disputes. Your list is pretty decent so far, and though I don't have much in the way of free time I'm willing to spend some of that free time helping wherever I can. Let me know what becomes of this.

I'm totally with you, that's also what I'd like to see. But the simple truth is I don't have the time or the energy to code that, particularly not in these hacker infested days.

If ClearCoin was still around I wouldn't even consider this. Oh, and thanks!
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August 18, 2011, 03:57:39 AM
 #5

I could probably hack something together. I doubt my code would be hacker-proof either but I've at least got enough knowledge / skill to put it out there and let people pentest the hell out of it and i can fix whatever they find Smiley

I'm crazy busy with work and school right now but I'll see if I can find the time.

nelisky
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August 18, 2011, 04:06:59 AM
 #6

I get that people want automated escrows, but those exist already. Again, either I trust the one doing it or I'll have to review the code. Even then I need to trust the ISP, server admin, etc.

What I'm proposing here isn't trying to mitigate the need for a full blown, trusted, secure escrow service, but rather allow for an alternate solution while such a service gets established. And frankly, I like the idea of a community operated / scrutinized escrow, but the software layer just gets in the way right now.

Of course if you do implement the service and open the code then "The League" can find among its ranks a sysadmin, grab a server and run that code Wink
Binford 6100
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August 18, 2011, 07:07:12 AM
 #7

i'm in for the ruleset discussion
thread per dispute
publishing escrow status changes updates
escrow request results in a escrow address with a known established person, sending btc to such middleman is proof of payment
bitcoins release upon acceptance of service/good

disputes for goods
- proof of sending vs claim of not receiving (time frame in days)
- pictures & description of traded item (no comment)

extra work for middleman - send address, wait, release coins or wait dispute outcome

bootstrapping the web of trust / joining data?

You can't build a reputation on what you are going to do.
SomeoneWeird
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August 18, 2011, 07:12:33 AM
 #8

Potential members of the league:

nanotube
bencode
noagendamarket
FreeMoney
davidonpda
Gavin Andresen
jgarzik
The Madhatter

Just to name a few. Additions or removals, just speak your peace.

umm... yeah... remove madhatter from your list.
nelisky
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August 18, 2011, 12:20:33 PM
 #9

umm... yeah... remove madhatter from your list.

I was hoping for a little more detail regarding the removals, but given your sig and the fact you are a moderator here, I'll assume it isn't just a personal thing Wink Thanks!
Garrett Burgwardt
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August 18, 2011, 12:35:05 PM
 #10

umm... yeah... remove madhatter from your list.

I was hoping for a little more detail regarding the removals, but given your sig and the fact you are a moderator here, I'll assume it isn't just a personal thing Wink Thanks!

The MadHatter has been 'flakey' at best recently.

And I'll throw my hat into the ring with a .5% fee, though it seems like you have a bunch of good people already.

-Garrett
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August 18, 2011, 12:48:09 PM
 #11

umm... yeah... remove madhatter from your list.

I was hoping for a little more detail regarding the removals, but given your sig and the fact you are a moderator here, I'll assume it isn't just a personal thing Wink Thanks!

The MadHatter has been 'flakey' at best recently.

And I'll throw my hat into the ring with a .5% fee, though it seems like you have a bunch of good people already.

-Garrett

We think he was in league with mybitcoin aswell.
nelisky
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August 18, 2011, 12:50:18 PM
 #12

The MadHatter has been 'flakey' at best recently.

And I'll throw my hat into the ring with a .5% fee, though it seems like you have a bunch of good people already.

Well, all the times I interacted with him he felt very trustworthy, though truth be told it was a long time ago.

Your name will be added to the list, thank you! Just a note that all is open to discussion and I'm not taking the lead on anything (I only leaded this thread because I *need* such a service myself) but my idea is to have a known fee structure and everyone just doing that. Would you be ok with the min and max fees or 0.1 and 1.0?

Also, I believe we each see risk in different ways, so maybe each member of "The League" puts forward a maximum amount they are comfortable processing?
davout
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August 18, 2011, 01:05:51 PM
 #13

You can add my name if you want, I'll take a .25% fee.

At some point Bitcoin-Central.net will also have an escrow feature, but god knows days are only 24h long Smiley

nelisky
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August 18, 2011, 01:10:58 PM
 #14

You can add my name if you want, I'll take a .25% fee.

At some point Bitcoin-Central.net will also have an escrow feature, but god knows days are only 24h long Smiley

I can hardly wait for that! That would kill "The League" for sure Wink

And thanks for stepping forward.
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August 18, 2011, 01:12:33 PM
 #15

I can hardly wait for that! That would kill "The League" for sure Wink
Hah yeah, there are more features that I want to implement than hair on my head, and god knows I'm not very aerodynamic Smiley

logansryche
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August 18, 2011, 03:22:56 PM
 #16

Creating a "League" for escrow services is redundant imo. I mean, that'd be like suggesting every group that makes up the merchant list to go league. What really needs to be done is to take all the good merchants out there and place them on a site so folks know who to trust. Don't mention this web of trust thing that was started because that comes off as a private gentleman's club then a public place. Just my 2 cents.
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August 18, 2011, 03:40:15 PM
 #17

All members of this 'league' vote and majority wins, either buyer or seller take the coins, no discussions or appeals.

A league can be great only to hold bitcoins in different wallet, exactly what my escrow service do btw.

The problem with the vote is that people could be corrupted and or make bad judgment according to a transaction. The only thing an escrow could rely on is proof. Proof of delivery, Proof of receipt, Proof of service completion etc.

Third party (escrow or league) should not never been able to buy word from a party instead of another without relying on proof, so that mean that the league is useless because if everyone rely on proof, all league will vote for the same person.

IMO This could maybe only be useful to verify proof or hold bitcoins in different wallet.

nelisky
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August 18, 2011, 04:03:23 PM
 #18

@BTCrow: your service is exactly what I would like to have, only done by someone I already trust (*wink* davout). This does not mean I distrust you or your service in any way, and with time I'll probably use it consistently, but right now, with all the scandals and people running away with fat wallet.dat's full of other people's coins, I tend to trust only the "family".

So, I'm not trying to get a justice league going, or an exclusive gentleman's club or anything. I just want a few of the older and trusted forum members to accept the escrow job temporarily, and I want everyone to know about that and who they are, so I don't get fooled by incomplete information (like regarding madhatter, I would trust him with no reserves).

This *is* redundant, and will become unneeded with time. This is not a business model, rather a volunteer escrow service to fill in a need I, selfishly, need.

As such, and while I understand there are many faults and potential pitfalls to this plan, I still think it is quite useful at least for now.
logansryche
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August 18, 2011, 04:21:54 PM
 #19

If you're going to go for a "trusted" escrow service I don't see the need to a "League" imo.
To everyone their own I s'pose.
nelisky
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August 18, 2011, 04:27:51 PM
 #20

If you're going to go for a "trusted" escrow service I don't see the need to a "League" imo.
To everyone their own I s'pose.

Because not everyone will trust the existing services, and I don't know of one I'll trust with anything more that pocket money right now.

I thought that was clear? Maybe I worded things incorrectly...
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