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Author Topic: Internet billionaire donates $1.25 million to create libertarian islands  (Read 5652 times)
Anonymous
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August 22, 2011, 03:44:02 AM
 #41


What do they do with the human wastes, particularly sewerage?

Any specific rules, codes on that I wonder?

Do you think people want to walk on streets of filth? Hell yes there will be sewage because people will want it.

So straight into the ocean?, treated?, one company?, competing sewage networks?, etc?

What rules/codes I wonder? Who says what goes?

Human desire.

Do you have the audacity to put money towards a company that dumps your waste directly into an ocean? The people will say what goes with their dollar.

Without wanting to rub your nose in it, so to speak, you haven't offered any specific details how these messy intricacies get sorted out in such confined quarters as an offshore floating rig. Have you ever worked on one?

That's the thing: no one individual could plan this out. It would be a coalition of many desires and projects. Can you really say it's impossible to achieve a result? One could argue its impossible to predict one.

Who deciphered the intracities of the web today when it was first started? Nobody planned this all out. People built the individual parts as they willed and this is what we have today: a vast collection of information cataloged by competing searching engines. That wasn't predicted nor planned beforehand.

I can't offer a complete solution but I can theorize. What you can't do is say it can't happen because we don't know. As history has shown, man has built in the face of all adversity without central planners.
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August 22, 2011, 04:06:21 AM
 #42


What do they do with the human wastes, particularly sewerage?

Any specific rules, codes on that I wonder?

Do you think people want to walk on streets of filth? Hell yes there will be sewage because people will want it.

So straight into the ocean?, treated?, one company?, competing sewage networks?, etc?

What rules/codes I wonder? Who says what goes?

Human desire.

Do you have the audacity to put money towards a company that dumps your waste directly into an ocean? The people will say what goes with their dollar.

Without wanting to rub your nose in it, so to speak, you haven't offered any specific details how these messy intricacies get sorted out in such confined quarters as an offshore floating rig. Have you ever worked on one?

That's the thing: no one individual could plan this out. It would be a coalition of many desires and projects. Can you really say it's impossible to achieve a result? One could argue its impossible to predict one.

Who deciphered the intracities of the web today when it was first started? Nobody planned this all out. People built the individual parts as they willed and this is what we have today: a vast collection of information cataloged by competing searching engines. That wasn't predicted nor planned beforehand.

I can't offer a complete solution but I can theorize. What you can't do is say it can't happen because we don't know. As history has shown, man has built in the face of all adversity without central planners.

Without wanting to get into a shit-fight, I see you have stuck steadfastly to platitudes and generalities. Theorising is wonderful but it doesn't get rid of shit; ask your local authority who deals with the stuff you flush down the toilet.

Moving sewage around and disposing of it hygienically for 2-3000 confined people is an engineering problem in this day and age, unless you have some masterful new technology that does away with the nastiness magically?? Questions remain as to who pays for it and how do you collect the expenses equitably? How do you police it if someone chooses to opt out and save a few bitcoins by just chucking shit out the porthole?

We'll use this sticky problem as a test case "example solution" for your general solution offered above, if you are the type of Libertarian that is game to roll your sleeves up and get shit done.

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August 22, 2011, 03:59:14 PM
 #43

Cruise ships can hold several thousand people, it seems to have the same issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_ship_pollution_in_the_United_States

Which would make me a prefer a floating city with sewage regulation, due to the public choice problem behind it. My understanding is that modern septic tanks get rid of exess water, leaving only solid waste behind to be pumped every few years. So not everywhere will need a waste treatment plant. The first seasteads are going to ship it back to shore.
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August 22, 2011, 04:12:48 PM
 #44

Remember the idea is to make government itself a marketable good with open competition. Which means central planning can still be selected for (by the migration of people) if it's done well. Libertarians will generally expect the winners of it to be similar to their views, but there's nothing stated in the rules that it's true.

I'm unsure why socialists or traditional anarchists are not as interested.
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August 22, 2011, 07:53:02 PM
 #45

Just sell your shit as fuel

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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August 31, 2011, 12:59:05 PM
 #46

I don't want my tax money spent to defend it.
I think it's much more likely that your tax money will be spent to attack it.
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September 01, 2011, 12:17:13 AM
 #47

I don't want my tax money spent to defend it.
I think it's much more likely that your tax money will be spent to attack it.
Yes, please. =p

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September 01, 2011, 05:10:39 AM
 #48

A powerful nation can come in and conquer these tiny island nations because they could never pack enough military to fight off a much larger nation like China or even North Korea.

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September 01, 2011, 08:14:42 PM
 #49

A powerful nation can come in and conquer these tiny island nations because they could never pack enough military to fight off a much larger nation like China or even North Korea.

rofl NK is going to stage an attack off the US coast? you must be up out your mind.



Anyway, does anyone here have objections - in principle - to people seceding in such a way if they pay for their own way?
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September 01, 2011, 08:27:24 PM
 #50

A powerful nation can come in and conquer these tiny island nations because they could never pack enough military to fight off a much larger nation like China or even North Korea.

rofl NK is going to stage an attack off the US coast? you must be up out your mind.


Oh yes, you'd better believe it.  They will paddle their bathtubs over to the US coast and then throw rocks at the coast guard.

Actually, they probably can't afford bathtubs.
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September 01, 2011, 08:50:58 PM
 #51

A powerful nation can come in and conquer these tiny island nations because they could never pack enough military to fight off a much larger nation like China or even North Korea.

rofl NK is going to stage an attack off the US coast? you must be up out your mind.



Anyway, does anyone here have objections - in principle - to people seceding in such a way if they pay for their own way?


Yes.  In fact, your post demonstrates why I object to it.  I don't want people paying no taxes to be afforded protection by the US or any other nation.  I don't want a colony of pedophiles and druggies to be living freely off the coast of my country.

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September 01, 2011, 09:02:24 PM
 #52

A powerful nation can come in and conquer these tiny island nations because they could never pack enough military to fight off a much larger nation like China or even North Korea.

rofl NK is going to stage an attack off the US coast? you must be up out your mind.



Anyway, does anyone here have objections - in principle - to people seceding in such a way if they pay for their own way?


Yes.  In fact, your post demonstrates why I object to it.  I don't want people paying no taxes to be afforded protection by the US or any other nation.  I don't want a colony of pedophiles and druggies to be living freely off the coast of my country.

Can you expand on how my post "demonstrates" why you object to it? I'm dense or something. I don't get it.

By the clause "if they pay for their own way" I meant to exclude the possibility of the US contributing protection. Either the colony did it themselves or it didn't happen.

Thanks for your thoughts.
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September 01, 2011, 10:01:06 PM
 #53

A powerful nation can come in and conquer these tiny island nations because they could never pack enough military to fight off a much larger nation like China or even North Korea.

rofl NK is going to stage an attack off the US coast? you must be up out your mind.



Anyway, does anyone here have objections - in principle - to people seceding in such a way if they pay for their own way?


Well if a libertarian island starts having laws the US doesn't like, then they won't defend it.  If the island abolishes all those sex laws like age of consent, age of pornography, age of prostitution, etc. then the USA will let it be invaded.  Also if it becomes a haven for drugs and software piracy, they'll let it be invaded.

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September 02, 2011, 01:17:12 AM
 #54

They might even send a team or two of their own

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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September 02, 2011, 09:16:13 AM
 #55

A powerful nation can come in and conquer these tiny island nations because they could never pack enough military to fight off a much larger nation like China or even North Korea.

rofl NK is going to stage an attack off the US coast? you must be up out your mind.



Anyway, does anyone here have objections - in principle - to people seceding in such a way if they pay for their own way?


Well if a libertarian island starts having laws the US doesn't like, then they won't defend it.  If the island abolishes all those sex laws like age of consent, age of pornography, age of prostitution, etc. then the USA will let it be invaded.  Also if it becomes a haven for drugs and software piracy, they'll let it be invaded.

I have a hard time believing that a country that was so scared of communism spreading close to its borders would let any foreign power invade a colony THAT close off US shores. No way.

The US would not "let" it be invaded simply because they'd be the invaders Wink
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September 02, 2011, 08:14:08 PM
 #56

I have a hard time believing that a country that was so scared of communism spreading close to its borders would let any foreign power invade a colony THAT close off US shores. No way.

The US would not "let" it be invaded simply because they'd be the invaders Wink


This island will be a protectorate of the USA and so it can't have libertarian laws that upset society too much.  Obviously it won't legalize rape or murder, but it might you know:
* If your neighbor's dog barks nonstop, you can shoot the dog in self defense
* Gets rid of copyright and patent laws
* No laws of sexual pruditry
* All the US bills named with Orwellian doublespeak (e.g. Patriotic Act, Clear Skies Act, Healthy Forests Act) will be officiall referred to by honest names.

Etc.

That kind of thing would make people in the US to complain and the freedoms would be taken away.

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September 03, 2011, 01:04:47 PM
 #57

I think I'll ask a similar question instead: does anyone here have objections to secession from the state? If the state's territory is not being lost? If taxpayers bear no brunt? Etc. etc.

Obviously this relates to the thread topic, but right now I'm more interested in the principle behind seasteading than I am in objections to possible cases.
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September 03, 2011, 01:22:01 PM
 #58

Has anyone written a fictional story about what it would be like to live on a libertarian island that was intentionally built that way? I'm having a difficult time with understanding how it would work. After the headache Ayn Rand left me, I would hope that this idea has improved in the last several decades.

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September 03, 2011, 02:47:30 PM
 #59

Has anyone written a fictional story about what it would be like to live on a libertarian island that was intentionally built that way? I'm having a difficult time with understanding how it would work. After the headache Ayn Rand left me, I would hope that this idea has improved in the last several decades.

Some "author" - not sure if he's a hack or not - is apparently writing one right now. I recall him saying it'll be "even-handed" but we know how such claims go. He wrote about the Seasteading idea on his blog, too. I'll try to look it up.

Also I think someone wrote a book about island countries. Not having any luck remembering the author or title name, though, so hopefully it all comes back to me.
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September 03, 2011, 05:20:56 PM
 #60



Also I think someone wrote a book about island countries. Not having any luck remembering the author or title name, though, so hopefully it all comes back to me.

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