Custom FPGA Board for Sale!

[newMeat1]

How does mining actually work with these? I see you need Windows for the driver, that's fine, but will it work with existing windows mining software?? Have you been able to mine with the prototypes?

fpgaminer wrote some scripts to do the mining. This is a picture of it in action, mining from Eligius-


So, it's not going to work with your GUIminer or whatever mining software you use with GPUs. It has its own software. If you want a more detailed answer, feel free to PM fpgaminer. We still need to get a user guide written and hosted somewhere- I realize this.

Li has been mining non-stop for 5 days with our first prototype

Will the firmware become any more optimised do you think, or is the current quoted hash rate the most we are ever likely to get out of the devices? Can they be overclocked at all to give faster rates?

Well, I hear that artForz has gotten up to 113 Mhash/s with this exact same chip. That probably gives you something close to an upper limit. So you will probably see some small increases in the future. That leads directly into your next question...

Is the FPGA reprogrammable? Do I need special cables or software to do so or can it all be done via USB?

Yes it is. All you need is the USB cable.

What kind of warranty are you going to offer? This is experimental equipment so I would expect a few failures here and there...

Well, would it cause a mutiny if I said I don't think we can afford any type of warranty? Our profit margin just isn't high enough, and we know how people abuse mining hardware. But, keep in mind, we'll test everything before we ship it. I really don't expect "a few failures here and there".

Maybe we could look into doing something where the customer pays to ship it back to Li, and he tries to fix it. He already fixes Xboxes and PS3's so I think there's a good possibility of this... Check his blog out to see him repair a cellphone. It's pretty cool.

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[fizzisist]

newMeat1, that's the mining software for the old board, and the new board is expected to be very different. Also, I'm not sure where you got that driver list... drivers are available for Windows, Mac, and Linux. The software is still in development, so the actual requirements to run it are still to be determined. fpgaminer is in charge of developing this software, so any questions about it should be directed towards him.

If the lack of details available at this point make you uncomfortable, please don't pre-order yet! More specifics will be ironed out soon.

[rph]

Nice work everyone

-rph

[eldentyrell_old]

The LX150 is a 484-pin BGA part... Do you send the boards to a professional assembly house for the BGA reflow, or do you reflow it yourself?

[film2240]

How much can I buy this board for with all needed items to get up and running quickly?
How much to buy? in USD and GBP
Academic discounts (as I work in an academic institution)?
Where can I buy them from?
Power use?
MHash/s performance?

Thanx

[li_gangyi]

The LX150 is a 484-pin BGA part... Do you send the boards to a professional assembly house for the BGA reflow, or do you reflow it yourself?

I do the BGA + QFN soldering with a soldering station at work.

[li_gangyi]

How much can I buy this board for with all needed items to get up and running quickly?
How much to buy? in USD and GBP
Academic discounts (as I work in an academic institution)?
Where can I buy them from?
Power use?
MHash/s performance?

Thanx

Unfortunately we're sold out on the initial batch of boards. We're working on a better board the next round and will have firm pricing later.
Power use and performance expected can be found at the 1st post.

[newMeat1]

Well, we have 42 preorders so far. That will help us get some nice bulk discounts. To give you guys an idea-- We have already dropped the cost of our heatsink by $2.51 due to this bulk order. With another few units sold, it will drop by another $0.87. So, on a dual-FPGA board, we are saving over $5 on the heatsinks alone. Thanks everybody for making this happen!

Academic discounts (as I work in an academic institution)?

Nope sorry. We aren't like some industrial giant that charges outrageous rates for commercial customers, then gives stuff away to students practically for free.

Where can I buy them from?
Power use?
MHash/s performance?

cablesaurus.com
For a dual FPGA board, expect less than 15W power draw and >=180 Mhash/s in real pool mining conditions

[fizzisist]

Actually, the size of the order is still going to be quite small, despite the 42 pre-orders. Unfortunately, Cablesaurus can't use any of the deposits that came from Paypal, because of the risk of chargebacks. None of the Paypal money can be touched until the actual order is shipped with a tracking number.

It's great to see that there is so much interest, though! As of right now, the $420/620 price point is still about right, with only a small profit in there for us to compensate us for our time.

The biggest problem with quantity discounts is that we get absolutely no discount for ordering FPGAs in bulk. It's going to be the same price to buy 1 as it is to buy 50. All of the rest of the parts are minor compared to the FPGAs, so I don't see the prices dropping as significantly as newMeat has hoped. Of course, we'll do our best!

[sirky]

Actually, the size of the order is still going to be quite small, despite the 42 pre-orders. Unfortunately, Cablesaurus can't use any of the deposits that came from Paypal, because of the risk of chargebacks. None of the Paypal money can be touched until the actual order is shipped with a tracking number.

It's great to see that there is so much interest, though! As of right now, the $420/620 price point is still about right, with only a small profit in there for us to compensate us for our time.

The biggest problem with quantity discounts is that we get absolutely no discount for ordering FPGAs in bulk. It's going to be the same price to buy 1 as it is to buy 50. All of the rest of the parts are minor compared to the FPGAs, so I don't see the prices dropping as significantly as newMeat has hoped. Of course, we'll do our best!

So since there are no bulk discounts for FPGA's, and they are the most expensive part, you don't have to buy them until you get the full order in for people (or maybe just before).

If you need front money just to buy the boards, and some of the cheaper stuff, you should let us know. I am willing to front some of the money for this, or pay for entire cards up front if it helps you obtain discounts (which you can hopefully pass on to us somewhat).

[eldentyrell_old]

The LX150 is a 484-pin BGA part... Do you send the boards to a professional assembly house for the BGA reflow, or do you reflow it yourself?

I do the BGA + QFN soldering with a soldering station at work.

QFN, sure, of course.

But BGA?  A soldering station isn't really any help with BGA devices -- the pins are underneath the chip; you can't get at them with an iron or hot air gun.  The only approaches involve heating the whole board and chip using a convection oven or hot-plate of some kind.

I guess I'm just curious to know if you're using a PID+Toaster-Oven approach for the BGA part; I've heard very good things about this approach and have been meaning to try it myself.  It would be nice to know at least one person has gotten it to work with a 484-pin Spartan chip -- these parts don't get used very often in small-run products.  Have you gotten this to work?  If so, do you have any tips or hints?

Thanks!

[svojoe]

I think that transparency is really good here and it builds credibility.  We are not you typical buyers either I don't think anyone here would scoff at you guys getting a fair margin for your efforts.  I personally am amazed at what you've created.  I can't wait to see 8 or 16 FPGA's on a single board,    (is that possible?)   

That being said what is the price on the FPGA's?  per unit?  I assume the 150 Model is the best price/performance hence its choice.   

Also I love fabricating so perhaps you could over a heat-sink less version?

[arij]

so you get about 160 mh/s with one of these for what was it $450?? i dont understand how these are better than buying a graphics card for 150 and getting 350 mhs

[li_gangyi]

QFN, sure, of course.

But BGA?  A soldering station isn't really any help with BGA devices -- the pins are underneath the chip; you can't get at them with an iron or hot air gun.  The only approaches involve heating the whole board and chip using a convection oven or hot-plate of some kind.

I guess I'm just curious to know if you're using a PID+Toaster-Oven approach for the BGA part; I've heard very good things about this approach and have been meaning to try it myself.  It would be nice to know at least one person has gotten it to work with a 484-pin Spartan chip -- these parts don't get used very often in small-run products.  Have you gotten this to work?  If so, do you have any tips or hints?

Thanks!

No I'm not using a toaster oven, at my current workplace I routinely fix Xbox360s and PS3 consoles with a IR soldering station. That's what I use.

[svojoe]

so you get about 160 mh/s with one of these for what was it $450?? i dont understand how these are better than buying a graphics card for 150 and getting 350 mhs

Its a lot more complicated than that Arij!

Yes you are going to pay around $450 and get only 100-110 Mh/s it seems,  thats almost 4x-5x more cost than buying GPU's.  But these things are almost magic and this is why.

They connect via USB, So your rig can be anything that has a internet connection (and likely free...,  This means no more $300 Power supplies.  Hell you could run 10 of these cards on a old ATX 300 Power supply from a computer going to the landfill...)

They consume roughly 1/8th 1/10th the electricity.  Perhaps less?  So every month the power savings will slowly eat up the 'savings' you think you have buy buying a gpu.

Really in theory it seems you can put over a 100 of these on a single computer with enough connectivity.  

Its really amazing!

[coblee]

Most barebone? SheevaPlug - $100 and done.

Good luck running the requisite Xilinx software on ARM. Even if you can program the FPGA (using something open like UrJTAG), further communication for actual mining might turn out difficult. This is one reason why I implemented serial port communications in my version of the FPGA miner.

lolwut.

They plan on using a legitimate usb interface for the next gen chips as for the xilinix software, that it entirely independent once programmed a fpga can be anything, this is kind of the point of fpgas.

So the SheevaPlug might work if the mining software will run on ARM. But you still need to find a molex connector from somewhere. The usb does not have enough power.

I imagine in 1-2 years, you guys will come out with gen10 that is just a device (like the SheevaPlug) that has has 10x FPGA inside and a ethernet port. You just plug it in and it will mine at 1Gh/s. Now, that would be cool.

[dserrano5]

Let us get back to you on the quantity-price breakdown. fizzisist and Li are working on some spreadsheets right now. My top-of-the-head guess is $385 for 20 orders.

It's great to see that there is so much interest, though! As of right now, the $420/620 price point is still about right, with only a small profit in there for us to compensate us for our time.

Hmm, I think I must be missing something. How is it possible that the estimation for 20 orders was $385 and now with 42 pre-orders the $420 is still right? Is it only due to the "order" ↔ "pre-order" difference, or are there more reasons? Mind you, I'm fine with that, just a bit surprised about the difference.

[fizzisist]

So since there are no bulk discounts for FPGA's, and they are the most expensive part, you don't have to buy them until you get the full order in for people (or maybe just before).

If you need front money just to buy the boards, and some of the cheaper stuff, you should let us know. I am willing to front some of the money for this, or pay for entire cards up front if it helps you obtain discounts (which you can hopefully pass on to us somewhat).

That's a good point, but then you have to deal with shipping on each of those FPGA orders. Li works in Singapore, so that's international shipping, too. Also, like I said, we can't really use any Paypal money to order parts until the finished board is shipped to the customer. We're working something out, though, so we'll get back to you soon.

[fpgaminer]

Hmm, I think I must be missing something. How is it possible that the estimation for 20 orders was $385 and now with 42 pre-orders the $420 is still right? Is it only due to the "order" ↔ "pre-order" difference, or are there more reasons? Mind you, I'm fine with that, just a bit surprised about the difference.

The X6000 and X6500 boards are being designed and tweaked as we speak, as well as the logistics of fulfilling orders. Consider those ballpark figures, rough estimations based on the information we have at hand. Everyone is working diligently to get good price quotes, but it's a little bit difficult when the technology is still in flux It's like trying to figure out how much your new PC will cost, with an ever changing landscape of discounts and rebates, and you're still waiting for your last paycheck to clear before deciding whether you want blue or red LED fans

[coblee]

Hmm, I think I must be missing something. How is it possible that the estimation for 20 orders was $385 and now with 42 pre-orders the $420 is still right? Is it only due to the "order" ↔ "pre-order" difference, or are there more reasons? Mind you, I'm fine with that, just a bit surprised about the difference.

The X6000 and X6500 boards are being designed and tweaked as we speak, as well as the logistics of fulfilling orders. Consider those ballpark figures, rough estimations based on the information we have at hand. Everyone is working diligently to get good price quotes, but it's a little bit difficult when the technology is still in flux It's like trying to figure out how much your new PC will cost, with an ever changing landscape of discounts and rebates, and you're still waiting for your last paycheck to clear before deciding whether you want blue or red LED fans

Please don't take this post too negatively. I do appreciate what you guys are putting in and I think you should be compensated appropriately. But in the future, please try to come up with better estimates on the price before you ask people to preorder. If you are going to say that >20 orders means $385, then you should stick with it. If not, please don't promise something that you may not be able to deliver. I'm guessing a lot of people ordered them expecting it to come out cheaper than $420 because they saw multiple people already pledging to order 10 of them. I ordered 2, so it doesn't make that much of a difference to me. But still... since everyone who preordered already have $50 in, if you don't give a discount, people will still pay you $420 each, and you guys can pocket the savings on the bulk order. I'm not saying you plan to do that, but there's really no incentives for you to pass along the savings to us since we are already committed to the $420 price. Know what I mean?