Learning from Imperial Rome

[Adrian-x]

"How about restarting blocsoldiers every 49 years, or better yet have older blocks phase out gradually as , wouldnt that create a rolling reboot of the economy."

The economy would need to be in a dire state before enough people agreed to such a measure,
and, as pointed out elsewhere, property would likely have to be returned as part of the deal.
While I'm hopeful that I'm wrong and the global economy rights itself, history suggests that
some form of radical solution may be required, not immediately, but eventually. 

While Bitcoin may bring a new paradigm to banking, and make dishonesty more difficult, it will
not alter debt. At best, Gresham's law will apply, bitcoins will be hoarded, driven out by fiat
currencies.

The simplest proposal is for the new cryptocurrency to wipe out its entire blockchain and restart.

As for this idea I believe inflation of fiat is more a sustainable idea.  Ultimately Joseph Proudhon nailed it with "property is despotism"

Whatever the reset if it doesn’t reset to the original condition pre-man it is a form of Despotism.

[aminorex]

At best, Gresham's law will apply, bitcoins will be hoarded, driven out by fiat
currencies.

I do not believe that fiat will exist as we know it in 10 years.  Specifically, debt money inevitably collapses.  The can will only kick so far before catastrophe wipes out hubris.  There may not be any bad money to drive the good money out of circulation.

[Kungfucheez]

At best, Gresham's law will apply, bitcoins will be hoarded, driven out by fiat
currencies.

I do not believe that fiat will exist as we know it in 10 years.  Specifically, debt money inevitably collapses.  The can will only kick so far before catastrophe wipes out hubris.  There may not be any bad money to drive the good money out of circulation.

I don't believe human beings will exists in 10 years. Instead we will undergo a massive extinction and dinosaurs will start walking the earth again. Also the ocean will turn into chocolate and all the sea animals will get diabetes

[thaaanos]

It’s more like we kept the bits that worked and called it common law. In Roman law it was OK to have a Coup d'état, so long as you could manage the military.

we (west) kept more than bits, take a look at sharia and you will see how bad a law system can go.
it still is, only problem now you now have more heads to coup.

[garcias]

WTF im reading 
Srsly?

[aminorex]

At best, Gresham's law will apply, bitcoins will be hoarded, driven out by fiat
currencies.

I do not believe that fiat will exist as we know it in 10 years.  Specifically, debt money inevitably collapses.  The can will only kick so far before catastrophe wipes out hubris.  There may not be any bad money to drive the good money out of circulation.

I don't believe human beings will exists in 10 years. Instead we will undergo a massive extinction and dinosaurs will start walking the earth again. Also the ocean will turn into chocolate and all the sea animals will get diabetes

Sneering is a good way to protect yourself from facts and logic, for a while.  They do tend to come crashing through eventually, however.

[Kungfucheez]

At best, Gresham's law will apply, bitcoins will be hoarded, driven out by fiat
currencies.

I do not believe that fiat will exist as we know it in 10 years.  Specifically, debt money inevitably collapses.  The can will only kick so far before catastrophe wipes out hubris.  There may not be any bad money to drive the good money out of circulation.

I don't believe human beings will exists in 10 years. Instead we will undergo a massive extinction and dinosaurs will start walking the earth again. Also the ocean will turn into chocolate and all the sea animals will get diabetes

Sneering is a good way to protect yourself from facts and logic, for a while.  They do tend to come crashing through eventually, however.

So does an asteroid, just wait for the dinosaurs when they come back to life and start using the human remains as gasoline to power their dino-cars

[SirBitsalot]

When in Rome...

[semaforo]

   First off, thanks to the OP for this excellent and informative post. As this forum grows it's good to see that quality posters are still around.


  I haven't noticed the ecological collapse hypothesis in the discussion here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_during_the_Roman_period


  Just one more factor to add to the consideration of everything else discussed here.

  As for the comment about sharia law-

   First off, I'm guessing you haven't made any effort to look beyond a smear campaign unprecedented in human history to discredit the ideological foundations of the Islamic civil and judicial system (we're talking a propaganda campaign in the tens if not hundreds of billions of $$$)- the same ideology that just happens to underlie the only group that presents a credible threat to the hegemony of the Egyptian-Greco-Roman intellectual tradition that is today manifest in US dominance and the institution of the nation-state and the structure of the UN.

    Secondly, the justice of the Roman system, or the "freedom" of America looks a lot different if you broaden your perspective to the planetary rather than national level. While it is possible to point out the criminal basis for American empire on a national level, it is much easier to point out that the pathetic masquerade of justice in the Roman legal system used in the US right now is entirely dependent on supporting vassal states around the world where simply speaking against injustice means immediate persecution and torture for the one speaking up, and their whole family/tribe. That is to say, if you look at the hundreds of thousands of corpses in the middle east whose deaths can be directly linked to US policies in parallel to the economic boom of the 90's, maybe the political order of the Roman legal system of the US would not seem like "the lesser evil."

     The crime rate, including drug addiction and child abuse, continues to grow in the US, as does the prison population, with an average cost of about 30,000 dollars a year per inmate. The prison population in the US is higher than the combined population of all Soviet gulags at any point in the Soviet Union, and at a much higher cost- taken at gunpoint directly from the working people who pay a disproportionate share of income to support the system.

  Maybe the reason the media, owned entirely by a few of the elite who pay such a tiny fraction of their income in tax compared to the working people, is so hostile to sharia isn't because it goes contrary to human rights- maybe it's because THERE IS NO INCOME TAX in sharia... oh, but how is it that that was never mentioned on the news? There is, however, a WEALTH tax... so who would the implementation of this system really hurt? No wonder the people who control your mind are afraid of this "fundamentalist" ideology that through free movement of people, goods, and ideas provided the basis for the European renaissance and thereby the technology we enjoy today. Just to recap- the media is owned by a few people who are extremely rich, and sharia would tax this wealth, leading to the extreme rich waging war (both christians and nominal muslims) against the people seeking to institute the application of this law. Ever seen the treasury at the vatican?

  Do you honestly think that the hundreds of millions of people who want to apply this law in their homelands and are violently put down by regimes supported by US tax dollars are just totally bereft of all sense? Why is it that some Arab "barbarians" defeated the numerically and technologically superior Roman and Persian empires in such a short span and instituted a golden age that outshone the brightest days of Athens? Why is it that you have never, ever heard even one, not even ONE report on TV that even mentioned offhand a single positive aspect of sharia? And why are you still swallowing what they feed you?

  As Spengler puts it, democracy is the rule of money, and the mechanism of that rule is the media. Whoever is interested in the truth, can find it. Whoever denies the truth because accepting it would mean having to change their lifestyle, will probably continue to do so.

  Again, awesome thread, keep up the good work.

[FenixRD]

  First off, thanks to the OP for this excellent and informative post. As this forum grows it's good to see that quality posters are still around.

No shit. OP,

...

(tagged so you see a reply to you specifically)

I'm going to run through your work, and I'm very pleased to have the opportunity. 12 posts, activity = 12. God, we need more of you and less of... well, mostly everyone else new. Quality over quantity, and original thought. (I assume. This is all original work? In that, the summarization and inference are yours?)

[thaaanos]

 
  As for the comment about sharia law-
  [...]

Concerning democracy and roman law
You cannot attribute the post-2000+ years degeneration of an Idea as Flaw in the Idea, rather as society's failure to properly implement the idea.
Not arguing that *any* Idea can be ever properly implemented mind you, see Capitalism, Communism, Democracy.

And not claiming that sharia is a barbaric law, The west simply prefered roman law, It could be simply that the strong decoupling of Law from Religion was preferable, and IMHO better. The East never managed to do that decoupling.

Concerning the Fatmids Glory I wouldn't root it to sharia, Maybe the Muslim states should revisit that Era.

[semaforo]

 
  As for the comment about sharia law-
  [...]

Concerning democracy and roman law
You cannot attribute the post-2000+ years degeneration of an Idea as Flaw in the Idea, rather as society's failure to properly implement the idea.
Not arguing that *any* Idea can be ever properly implemented mind you, see Capitalism, Communism, Democracy.

And not claiming that sharia is a barbaric law, The west simply prefered roman law, It could be simply that the strong decoupling of Law from Religion was preferable, and IMHO better. The East never managed to do that decoupling.

Concerning the Fatmids Glory I wouldn't root it to sharia, Maybe the Muslim states should revisit that Era.

    Quite simply put, the West never managed it either. The separation of Church and state are an illusion- the enlightenment was a power grab by merchants and guilds on the Church and aristocracies monopoly on manufacture/interpretation of "truth", and thereby political and economic power. The values of humanism, like human rights, that form the basis for the law in the "secular" democracies, are based firmly in Christian theology. If you try to take them to their logical extreme by applying reason to them, they collapse into a sociopathic utilitarianism where the combined potential of society is directed towards hedonism with a pyramidal hierarchy as the socio-economic structure and impetus for all progress, much like the one we live in today. In other words, democracy is a religion where the god that is worshipped is the human intellect, or the human worships its self- and the possibility of humanity to supplant the divine is provided for beautifully by the interpretation of Jesus, a human, as the manifestation of God, laying the humanist foundation for communism and democracy. This worship manifests itself in an endless cycle of trying vainly to fulfill desires that only grow the more you feed them, as noted by Buddha.

     We now get to watch as this mode of existence proliferates in China.

    I don't think even the most Islamophobic historian would try to limit the Islamic golden age to the Fatimid dynasty. Do an image search for Samarkand.

[SirBitsalot]

Can somebody here give us a brief summary as to what the OP is trying to tell us? I fear there is some sort of language barrier.

[Kungfucheez]

Can somebody here give us a brief summary as to what the OP is trying to tell us? I fear there is some sort of language barrier.

No clue man, apparently he wants to compare Ancient Rome to modern digital currency, or at least I think he is??? I have no idea man

[Adrian-x]

Can somebody here give us a brief summary as to what the OP is trying to tell us? I fear there is some sort of language barrier.

No clue man, apparently he wants to compare Ancient Rome to modern digital currency, or at least I think he is??? I have no idea man

He is saying to prevent wealth accumulation debt needs to be forgiven approximately every 42-49 years. This is historically how civilization has managed to get this far. He is making an argument that we can do this with a new altcoin.

Check out An introduction to the history of the Roman empire.

"ROME: Rise and fall of an empire - Part 1/14" on YouTube

It will take you 2 weeks - try and spot mistakes we are repeating.

[Kungfucheez]

Can somebody here give us a brief summary as to what the OP is trying to tell us? I fear there is some sort of language barrier.

No clue man, apparently he wants to compare Ancient Rome to modern digital currency, or at least I think he is??? I have no idea man

He is saying to prevent wealth accumulation debt needs to be forgiven approximately every 42-49 years. This is historically how civilization has managed to get this far. He is making an argument that we can do this with a new altcoin.

Check out An introduction to the history of the Roman empire.

"ROME: Rise and fall of an empire - Part 1/14" on YouTube

It will take you 2 weeks - try and spot mistakes we are repeating.

I thought a debt that could not be repaid or had no possibility of being repaid meant ending up in debtors prison or you had to undergo some sort of debt bondage?

[Adrian-x]

Can somebody here give us a brief summary as to what the OP is trying to tell us? I fear there is some sort of language barrier.

No clue man, apparently he wants to compare Ancient Rome to modern digital currency, or at least I think he is??? I have no idea man

He is saying to prevent wealth accumulation debt needs to be forgiven approximately every 42-49 years. This is historically how civilization has managed to get this far. He is making an argument that we can do this with a new altcoin.

Check out An introduction to the history of the Roman empire.

"ROME: Rise and fall of an empire - Part 1/14" on YouTube

It will take you 2 weeks - try and spot mistakes we are repeating.

I thought a debt that could not be repaid or had no possibility of being repaid meant ending up in debtors prison or you had to undergo some sort of debt bondage?

Working a minimum wage job is effectively a debt bondage.

Debtors prison idea goes hand in hand with modern banking it was short lived in the history of civilization, economists realized there was untapped economic potential there*. Re-read the tread to see how it was resolved in feudal times. Debt as you know it is a relatively new idea.

Today we resolve the problem of income inequality with inflation and bankruptcies.**

Check out  David Graeber,  DEBT: The First 5,000 Years

Edit
* keeping someone in debtors prison is a liability. Forgiving them by allowing bankruptcy puts them back in the economy as an asset.

** the solution is ineffective the 1% avoid inflation and as the wealth of the 99% moves to up the pyramid it impoverished the poor and is now eroding the middle class.

[thaaanos]

 
  As for the comment about sharia law-
  [...]

Concerning democracy and roman law
You cannot attribute the post-2000+ years degeneration of an Idea as Flaw in the Idea, rather as society's failure to properly implement the idea.
Not arguing that *any* Idea can be ever properly implemented mind you, see Capitalism, Communism, Democracy.

And not claiming that sharia is a barbaric law, The west simply prefered roman law, It could be simply that the strong decoupling of Law from Religion was preferable, and IMHO better. The East never managed to do that decoupling.

Concerning the Fatmids Glory I wouldn't root it to sharia, Maybe the Muslim states should revisit that Era.

    Quite simply put, the West never managed it either. The separation of Church and state are an illusion- the enlightenment was a power grab by merchants and guilds on the Church and aristocracies monopoly on manufacture/interpretation of "truth", and thereby political and economic power. The values of humanism, like human rights, that form the basis for the law in the "secular" democracies, are based firmly in Christian theology. If you try to take them to their logical extreme by applying reason to them, they collapse into a sociopathic utilitarianism where the combined potential of society is directed towards hedonism with a pyramidal hierarchy as the socio-economic structure and impetus for all progress, much like the one we live in today. In other words, democracy is a religion where the god that is worshipped is the human intellect, or the human worships its self- and the possibility of humanity to supplant the divine is provided for beautifully by the interpretation of Jesus, a human, as the manifestation of God, laying the humanist foundation for communism and democracy.
 This worship manifests itself in an endless cycle of trying vainly to fulfill desires that only grow the more you feed them, as noted by Buddha.

But is there any other god but the Human Intellect? If we listen to Buddha we may as well spend our lives in mental masturbation oops sorry "meditation". Epicurus slaps Buddha everytime, and Chryssipus tells him to get over it.

     We now get to watch as this mode of existence proliferates in China.

I would also add North Korea too...

    I don't think even the most Islamophobic historian would try to limit the Islamic golden age to the Fatimid dynasty. Do an image search for Samarkand.

Barbarians, with silk road money. nothing exceptional about them.

[troy112]

Wow! would take me atleast a week to read it all and absrorb. too much info. And yes like history.

[minor-transgression]

The easy question first: The summary and opinion are mine, as are any mistakes in
calculation or transcription. I've tried to provide links to source material
where possible, so if something is not clearly linked, wikipedia is the likely source.
I'd add that I am approaching this as a not particlularly bright Engineer, who happens
to have an interest in economics and history.

I'd add this to earlier comments:
a) All systems fail eventually, good design provides for graceful failure.
b) Ancient civilisations placed limitations on interest rates, including prohibition of usury
to make their civilisation more robust.
c) To get over the problem of unpayable debt, debt forgiveness was written into Law, and
sometimes applied by edict. Slaves were set free. (Graeber defines freedom as freedom from debt)
d) Arguably, Imperial Rome failed to follow ancient practice, thus their trimetallic system
became debased because of too much debt, leading to hyperinflation and collapse.

Note that prohibition of usury was commonplace prior to the late middle ages:
See Tiberius for an instance during the Imperial Roman period, and Christian Rulers
adopted the practice for many years - currently sharia law has a similar prohibition.

I've gained the impression that some have placed their faith in gold and bitcoin
to remain viable if or when the system collapses. I have to admit I have some of these
myself, but if the System goes down, putting sticking plasters (band-aids) on a torn
artery is not a solution. I have suggested designing a suitable alt-coin as a way
forward, but for various reasons, I doubt it will work.

One point in bitcoin's favour is that this population is somewhat familiar with
exponential change.