Bitcoin Forum
December 11, 2016, 06:37:15 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.13.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Techreview : Bitcoins are not a currency with horders  (Read 2050 times)
the founder
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448


Bitcoin


View Profile WWW
August 23, 2011, 04:54:10 PM
 #1

The bitcoin, a virtual medium of exchange, could be a real alternative to government-issued money—but only if it survives hoarding by speculators.

http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/38392/?p1=Mag_story1


Bitcoin RSS App / Bitcoin Android App / Bitcoin Webapp http://www.ounce.me  Say thank you here:  1HByHZQ44LUCxxpnqtXDuJVmrSdrGK6Q2f
1481438235
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481438235

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481438235
Reply with quote  #2

1481438235
Report to moderator
1481438235
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481438235

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481438235
Reply with quote  #2

1481438235
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481438235
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481438235

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481438235
Reply with quote  #2

1481438235
Report to moderator
1481438235
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481438235

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481438235
Reply with quote  #2

1481438235
Report to moderator
FreeMoney
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


Strength in numbers


View Profile WWW
August 23, 2011, 05:03:35 PM
 #2

Lol, yeah, things that no one wants to keep are super valuable.

Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.
the founder
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448


Bitcoin


View Profile WWW
August 23, 2011, 05:10:53 PM
 #3

Lol, yeah, things that no one wants to keep are super valuable.


That's the blessing and the curse of this...   if everyone keeps hording them and not spending them on stuff.. it's not a currency it's a speculator market ....  if people start spending them then of course it becomes a currency.

It's up to the bitcoin community on how it proceeds....    in my opinion it needs to turn into a useful currency or else it becomes tulip mania.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania



Bitcoin RSS App / Bitcoin Android App / Bitcoin Webapp http://www.ounce.me  Say thank you here:  1HByHZQ44LUCxxpnqtXDuJVmrSdrGK6Q2f
Trader Steve
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 725


"How do you eat an elephant? One bit at a time..."


View Profile
August 23, 2011, 05:13:32 PM
 #4

Deflation and hoarding are non-issues:

Bitcoin and the Virtue of Hoarding and Deflation
http://economicsandliberty.wordpress.com/2011/06/10/bitcoin-and-the-virtue-of-hoarding-and-deflation/

In Defense of Deflation
http://mises.org/daily/4623
Trader Steve
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 725


"How do you eat an elephant? One bit at a time..."


View Profile
August 23, 2011, 05:17:48 PM
 #5

One more for good measure:

Bitcoin's Deflationary Economy Not A Problem In Itself
http://falkvinge.net/2011/08/21/bitcoins-deflationary-economy-not-a-problem-in-itself/
BitPay Business Solutions
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756


View Profile WWW
August 23, 2011, 05:18:40 PM
 #6

I posted a comment on that article.  With the innovation that companies like flexcoin and bit-pay are doing, the exchange risk is completely isolated from the merchant.  People use this as a savings or spending account at a bank, but with more control than you have with a traditional bank.

BTW I created an account with you.  Did you get any quotes on that policy we talked about?

BitPay : The World Leader in Bitcoin Business Solutions

https://bitpay.com

Does your website accept bitcoins?
Piper67
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1008



View Profile
August 23, 2011, 05:21:55 PM
 #7

Lol, yeah, things that no one wants to keep are super valuable.


That's the blessing and the curse of this...   if everyone keeps hording them and not spending them on stuff.. it's not a currency it's a speculator market ....  if people start spending them then of course it becomes a currency.

It's up to the bitcoin community on how it proceeds....    in my opinion it needs to turn into a useful currency or else it becomes tulip mania.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania




I respectfully disagree. The key to adoption in large numbers will be at least a perceived notion that bitcoin's value will rise. This obsession with stability is very misguided. Nobody has a true incentive to engage with a perfectly stable currency or commodity of any sort.

A steady, continuous rise in price, on the other hand, will act as a constant lure to people to engage with bitcoins, learn about them, then buy some... once people HAVE bitcoins, they will start to use them in transactions. Not the other way around.

Of all the incentives bitcoin has to offer to the masses out there, it is its deflationary nature that will appeal to most. The uncounterfeitable aspects of it, the fact that it's decentralised and can be transmitted around the world almost instantly for almost no fee at all... that doesn't come close to acting as an incentive for the vast majority of people. A rise in value will.

Oh, and if you truly compare it with tulips, you haven't read enough about either bitcoins or tulips... which I'm sure is not the case, so let's not make silly comparisons, shall we?

Cheers
evoorhees
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 994


Democracy is the original 51% attack


View Profile
August 23, 2011, 05:23:42 PM
 #8

Let's assume for a second that the author's thesis is true - that people won't spend Bitcoins on day to day transactions. That's fine... a successful medium of exchange doesn't need to necessarily be used in such a way. Gold is a great example. It's not used ever in day to day trade, yet it's the most reliable and successful form of money in history.

The author misses that vast benefits of this technology exist regardless of day to day use. For example, the international remittance market. Even if the only long-term use of Bitcoin was for international money transfers, it would be enormously valuable. The Mexican immigrant in the US can transfer money to an exchange in his home country for a fraction of the cost of what he would pay with dollars and bank systems today (and the transfer could be done in 5 minutes, instead of 3-10 days). There is no need for him to be buying food and gas with Bitcoin for there to be value in the international transfer of funds. All that's required is a relatively stable exchange rate, and this will stabilize over time as the market grows and decides the value of Bitcoins. There have already been days where BTC was less volatile in percentage terms than the USD. Consider that in an efficient market, the immigrant's USD could be sold at the exchange in Denver, then transferred via Bitcoin to Mexico City, and then converted to Pesos at the Mexican exchange in the span of a few minutes (using trusted "green addresses") - in such a case even volatile exchange rates are not a big deal.

"Hoarding" of Bitcoin may perhaps be a hindrance to daily use, but daily use is but a fraction of Bitcoin's potential value.


Piper67
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1008



View Profile
August 23, 2011, 05:25:43 PM
 #9

Let's assume for a second that the author's thesis is true - that people won't spend Bitcoins on day to day transactions. That's fine... a successful medium of exchange doesn't need to necessarily be used in such a way. Gold is a great example. It's not used ever in day to day trade, yet it's the most reliable and successful form of money in history.

The author misses that vast benefits of this technology exist regardless of day to day use. For example, the international remittance market. Even if the only long-term use of Bitcoin was for international money transfers, it would be enormously valuable. The Mexican immigrant in the US can transfer money to an exchange in his home country for a fraction of the cost of what he would pay with dollars and bank systems today (and the transfer could be done in 5 minutes, instead of 3-10 days). There is no need for him to be buying food and gas with Bitcoin for there to be value in the international transfer of funds. All that's required is a relatively stable exchange rate, and this will stabilize over time as the market grows and decides the value of Bitcoins. There have already been days where BTC was less volatile in percentage terms than the USD. Consider that in an efficient market, the immigrant's USD could be sold at the exchange in Denver, then transferred via Bitcoin to Mexico City, and then converted to Pesos at the Mexican exchange in the span of a few minutes (using trusted "green addresses") - in such a case even volatile exchange rates are not a big deal.

"Hoarding" of Bitcoin may perhaps be a hindrance to daily use, but daily use is but a fraction of Bitcoin's potential value.




Precisely... I venture to say that if there were only ever going to be 21 million tulips in the world, that you could not ever forge a tulip, and that you could send them instantaneously around the world... tulips would still be worth a whole shipload of money  Grin
onesalt
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 308


View Profile
August 23, 2011, 06:11:54 PM
 #10

Lol, yeah, things that no one wants to keep are super valuable.

That implies bitcoin currently has real value instead of speculativity driven value.
hugolp
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 742



View Profile
August 23, 2011, 06:17:32 PM
 #11

The deflation argument again reshufled. I really think that these people get a lot of hits (and thus ad money) by trashing Bitcoin and that is why they do it.
evoorhees
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 994


Democracy is the original 51% attack


View Profile
August 23, 2011, 06:19:09 PM
 #12

Lol, yeah, things that no one wants to keep are super valuable.

That implies bitcoin currently has real value instead of speculativity driven value.

I just sent my friend in Dubai $50 worth of value. After clicking "send" I went to pee, and upon my return he had confirmed receipt of payment. Zero fees.
tvbcof
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1988


View Profile
August 23, 2011, 06:27:31 PM
 #13

I personally see Bitcoin as being most useful as a 'reserve currency' of sorts.  I think it would be most useful as backing for a myriad of alternative currencies each with different inflationary properties, transaction fees, etc.

The alternative currencies would compete with one another and win or lose based on the usefulness to the users, and exchanges can easily keep track of things.  The bitcoin backing the alternatives would rise or fall in value accordingly.  This would produce a situation where the holders of the backing currency would be induced to use it in a way which benefits the users as well.

I believe that we are approaching the end-of-life of our current debt-based monetary systems and for a probably brief transition period will have a non-debt-based currency. Relative to Gold, I prefer bitcoin in the role of a reserve currency.  The reason why is that if the reserve currency is abused to huge degree, and it is bitcoin, a majority of real users can render it useless by updating their software.  This cannot be said for Gold which is inevitably hoarded and abused (and very difficult to shake out of the hands of abusers.)

These are, of course, my own personal thoughts on Bitcoin at the present time.  I realize that they do not match the thoughts of others.  I did not formulate or develop the Bitcoin solution.  But then neither did almost any of you.

Piper67
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1008



View Profile
August 23, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
 #14

I personally see Bitcoin as being most useful as a 'reserve currency' of sorts.  I think it would be most useful as backing for a myriad of alternative currencies each with different inflationary properties, transaction fees, etc.

The alternative currencies would compete with one another and win or lose based on the usefulness to the users, and exchanges can easily keep track of things.  The bitcoin backing the alternatives would rise or fall in value accordingly.  This would produce a situation where the holders of the backing currency would be induced to use it in a way which benefits the users as well.

I believe that we are approaching the end-of-life of our current debt-based monetary systems and for a probably brief transition period will have a non-debt-based currency. Relative to Gold, I prefer bitcoin in the role of a reserve currency.  The reason why is that if the reserve currency is abused to huge degree, and it is bitcoin, a majority of real users can render it useless by updating their software.  This cannot be said for Gold which is inevitably hoarded and abused (and very difficult to shake out of the hands of abusers.)

These are, of course, my own personal thoughts on Bitcoin at the present time.  I realize that they do not match the thoughts of others.  I did not formulate or develop the Bitcoin solution.  But then neither did almost any of you.

I have a feeling a good chunk of us actually agree with you, but the mantra of "stability so that bitcoin can become a viable currency" has been brandied about for so long in this community that it has become almost an article of faith.

The fact is, bitcoin implies a paradigm shift, and one of the paradigms that has to go is the necessity for a currency to be stable... in a world where a price can be changed several hundred times a second, that simply isn't the case.
the founder
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448


Bitcoin


View Profile WWW
August 23, 2011, 06:35:21 PM
 #15

BTW I created an account with you.  Did you get any quotes on that policy we talked about?

yes...  though it appeared not to be expensive, they want to have their own auditors at flexcoin's cost audit the system...   I have to debate that as the audit appears to cost thousands of dollars prior to buying the insurance policy...

I agree though and I might proceed.

It was great meeting you guys!


Bitcoin RSS App / Bitcoin Android App / Bitcoin Webapp http://www.ounce.me  Say thank you here:  1HByHZQ44LUCxxpnqtXDuJVmrSdrGK6Q2f
BitPay Business Solutions
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756


View Profile WWW
August 23, 2011, 06:36:11 PM
 #16

The fact is, bitcoin implies a paradigm shift, and one of the paradigms that has to go is the necessity for a currency to be stable... in a world where a price can be changed several hundred times a second, that simply isn't the case.

Forex trading between currencies like the USD/EUR/JPY trades millions of times per second.  What's needed is more participants volume in the bitcoin exchanges to reduce volatility and narrow the spreads. We will get there.


BitPay : The World Leader in Bitcoin Business Solutions

https://bitpay.com

Does your website accept bitcoins?
Phinnaeus Gage
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1302


Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending


View Profile
August 23, 2011, 07:13:06 PM
 #17

Let's assume for a second that the author's thesis is true - that people won't spend Bitcoins on day to day transactions. That's fine... a successful medium of exchange doesn't need to necessarily be used in such a way. Gold is a great example. It's not used ever in day to day trade, yet it's the most reliable and successful form of money in history.

The author misses that vast benefits of this technology exist regardless of day to day use. For example, the international remittance market. Even if the only long-term use of Bitcoin was for international money transfers, it would be enormously valuable. The Mexican immigrant in the US can transfer money to an exchange in his home country for a fraction of the cost of what he would pay with dollars and bank systems today (and the transfer could be done in 5 minutes, instead of 3-10 days). There is no need for him to be buying food and gas with Bitcoin for there to be value in the international transfer of funds. All that's required is a relatively stable exchange rate, and this will stabilize over time as the market grows and decides the value of Bitcoins. There have already been days where BTC was less volatile in percentage terms than the USD. Consider that in an efficient market, the immigrant's USD could be sold at the exchange in Denver, then transferred via Bitcoin to Mexico City, and then converted to Pesos at the Mexican exchange in the span of a few minutes (using trusted "green addresses") - in such a case even volatile exchange rates are not a big deal.

"Hoarding" of Bitcoin may perhaps be a hindrance to daily use, but daily use is but a fraction of Bitcoin's potential value.



Precisely... I venture to say that if there were only ever going to be 21 million tulips in the world, that you could not ever forge a tulip, and that you could send them instantaneously around the world... tulips would still be worth a whole shipload of money  Grin


Quote
tulips would still be worth a whole shipload of money

Visit Heirloom Tulip Bulbs to see what tulips are going for today. I choose the one below (and there are way more expensive ones) because one cost about 1 BTC. http://www.oldhousegardens.com/display.aspx?cat=Tulip

ABSALON, 1780  Rarest:  Most people have never even seen a brown tulip, let alone grown one. Here’s your chance! 18th-century ‘Absalon’ is intriguingly patterned with swirling flames of dark chocolate and chestnut brown on gold. It’s a true broken tulip, a Dutch Bizarre from the Hortus Bulborum – and sure to cause a buzz. 16” late, zones 4b-7a, from Holland. Chart to compare.
TU73   Add to basket:   1/$9.50   3/$26.00   5/$41   10/$76   25/$171   Link to basket:
http://www.oldhousegardens.com/basket.asp?qpr=1/9.50&act=Add&pp=TU73




Steve
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 868



View Profile WWW
August 23, 2011, 07:22:44 PM
 #18

Hoarding is not the problem...not spending is the problem.  Hoarding and spending are not mutually exclusive things.  You can very easily be both a hoarder and a spender of bitcoin and both things are good for the bitcoin economy.

(gasteve on IRC) Does your website accept cash? https://bitpay.com
onesalt
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 308


View Profile
August 23, 2011, 10:42:23 PM
 #19

Lol, yeah, things that no one wants to keep are super valuable.

That implies bitcoin currently has real value instead of speculativity driven value.

I just sent my friend in Dubai $50 worth of value. After clicking "send" I went to pee, and upon my return he had confirmed receipt of payment. Zero fees.

What's your point? The bitcoins you had were only worth 50 dollars because speculators and hoarders drove the price high, rather than because bitcoins have any practical use at the moment other than converting them back into USD or otherwise. It's like saying "well this dust I picked up off the side of the road is valued at 50 dollars a gram!!" but only if you could find someone who's actually willing to pay that for it.
jrtubs
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 43



View Profile
August 23, 2011, 11:01:55 PM
 #20

Lol, yeah, things that no one wants to keep are super valuable.

That implies bitcoin currently has real value instead of speculativity driven value.

I just sent my friend in Dubai $50 worth of value. After clicking "send" I went to pee, and upon my return he had confirmed receipt of payment. Zero fees.

What's your point? The bitcoins you had were only worth 50 dollars because speculators and hoarders drove the price high, rather than because bitcoins have any practical use at the moment other than converting them back into USD or otherwise. It's like saying "well this dust I picked up off the side of the road is valued at 50 dollars a gram!!" but only if you could find someone who's actually willing to pay that for it.

But you couldn't send that 50$ a gram of sand across the world for no fees, and in the time it takes to take a piss
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!