Bitcoin Forum
June 16, 2024, 07:25:47 PM *
News: Voting for pizza day contest
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Alt Coin Scams - Quark, Dogecoin etc.  (Read 6481 times)
hypostatization
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 350
Merit: 250


View Profile
December 29, 2013, 03:56:43 AM
 #21

ripple is the biggest scam coin then comes quark

How is Ripple a scam?

xrptalk.org :: setup a wallet + trade all currencies :: gateway reviews @ coinist.co :: deposit to buy xrp @ snapswap [now supporting PayPal withdrawls + instant ACH transfer deposits]
CrossCoin Ventures startup accelerator - offering XRP funding up to $50,000 USD equivalent
r0ach
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000


View Profile
December 29, 2013, 04:05:27 PM
Last edit: December 29, 2013, 04:34:32 PM by r0ach
 #22

Someone told me all you have to do is limit transaction sizes to defeat the integer or floating point limit.  Can original poster respond to that.  I know dogecoin has a limit for transaction sizes from the start.

......ATLANT......
..Real Estate Blockchain Platform..
                    ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
                    ████████████░
                  ▄██████████████░
                 ▒███████▄████████░
                ▒█████████░████████░
                ▀███████▀█████████
                  ██████████████
           ███████▐██▀████▐██▄████████░
          ▄████▄█████████▒████▌█████████░
         ███████▄█████████▀██████████████░
        █████████▌█████████▐█████▄████████░
        ▀█████████████████▐███████████████
          █████▀████████ ░███████████████
    ██████▐██████████▄████████████████████████░
  ▄████▄████████▐███████████████░▄▄▄▄░████████░
 ▄██████▄█████████▐█████▄█████████▀████▄█████████░
███████████████████▐█████▄█████████▐██████████████░
▀████████▀█████████▒██████████████▐█████▀█████████
  ████████████████ █████▀█████████████████████████
   ▀██▀██████████ ▐█████████████  ▀██▀██████████
    ▀▀█████████    ▀▀█████████    ▀▀██████████

..INVEST  ●  RENT  ●  TRADE..
 ✓Assurance     ✓Price Discovery     ✓Liquidity     ✓Low Fees





███
███
███
███
███
███





███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███

◣Whitepaper ◣ANN ThreadTelegram
◣ Facebook     ◣ Reddit          ◣ Slack


███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███





███
███
███
███
███
███








Hero/Legendary members
markm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090



View Profile WWW
December 29, 2013, 04:11:22 PM
 #23

It varies. If the coin wants to have a "how many in total have been issued so far" readout then yeah, problem.

(e.g. Proof of Stake coins, with their "money supply" readout.)

Coins based on Bitcoin though, like DevCoin, nothing in the code tries to add it all up, so as long as no individual transaction, wallet, or address has too many coins it should work.

Java, python etc programmers writing external systems to interface with it might have to resort to bignum libraries or something though.

Exchanges for example, how many exchanges written in PHP use some kind of bignum library?

-MarkM-

Browser-launched Crossfire client now online (select CrossCiv server for Galactic  Milieu)
Free website hosting with PHP, MySQL etc: http://hosting.knotwork.com/
gnode
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 492
Merit: 250


View Profile
December 29, 2013, 04:13:06 PM
 #24

"Hi BitcoinTalk,

I'm new to Bitcointalk but not new to cryptocurrency so I wanted to point out a couple of observations Ive made regarding alt coins.

Floating point numbers in modern computers can go up to 2^53 or aprox 9.0x10^15 units... after this point the numerical system goes haywire (google it).

Bitcoin is 2.1 x 10^15 units, at 21,000,000 bitcoins divisible to 0.00000001 and Litecoin has 8.4x10^15 units (which is uncoincidentally close to the above mentioned limit)

In simple terms therefore DO NOT put money into any coin with more than 90,000,000 coins divisible to 8 decimal places (Quark, Dogecoin etc) unless you are a speculator playing the pump n dump market well as by definition its dead in the water. "

Your kidding right? We survived Y2K I'm sure we will survive this.

Oh sorry google Y2K, since it was before you were born.
r0ach
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000


View Profile
December 29, 2013, 04:31:46 PM
Last edit: December 29, 2013, 05:35:51 PM by r0ach
 #25

The post here by a bitcoin developer himself says that values are stored in signed 64 bit integers, which if true, would limit total coins to 92 billion with 8 decimal places after it if my math is correct.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=13837.msg189952#msg189952

Others claim limiting transaction sizes can defeat this limit.  Others claim that Bitcoin PoW systems don't use any functions to reference total coin count, making this entire thread irrelevant.

I'm not a mathematician, but a graphics card is basically a daisy chain of floating point processing units.  Since GPUs are so fast at hashing, I can only assume lots of floating point math is going on here, so it seems like some kind of floating point limit would apply somewhere in the mix, unless, like the guy said, you're just hashing and not actually referencing total coin counts anywhere.

I'm not really sure what to make of it all, but there doesn't appear to be a problem.

Dogecoin is not a scam coin either.  It was a fair launch coin with no pre-mine.  It was a more "fair" launch than even Bitcoin itself.  You can question Doges economic model of block rewards, but claiming Dogecoin is a scam just makes you look like a fool. Most people consider Quark a scam coin though.

Worst case scenario, Quark is owned almost entirely by developers and a small amount of random people.  Best case scenario, Quark is owned almost entirely by developers + botnets + a few other people.

CPU coins really are kind of a joke just from the botnet issues alone + cloud computing.

......ATLANT......
..Real Estate Blockchain Platform..
                    ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
                    ████████████░
                  ▄██████████████░
                 ▒███████▄████████░
                ▒█████████░████████░
                ▀███████▀█████████
                  ██████████████
           ███████▐██▀████▐██▄████████░
          ▄████▄█████████▒████▌█████████░
         ███████▄█████████▀██████████████░
        █████████▌█████████▐█████▄████████░
        ▀█████████████████▐███████████████
          █████▀████████ ░███████████████
    ██████▐██████████▄████████████████████████░
  ▄████▄████████▐███████████████░▄▄▄▄░████████░
 ▄██████▄█████████▐█████▄█████████▀████▄█████████░
███████████████████▐█████▄█████████▐██████████████░
▀████████▀█████████▒██████████████▐█████▀█████████
  ████████████████ █████▀█████████████████████████
   ▀██▀██████████ ▐█████████████  ▀██▀██████████
    ▀▀█████████    ▀▀█████████    ▀▀██████████

..INVEST  ●  RENT  ●  TRADE..
 ✓Assurance     ✓Price Discovery     ✓Liquidity     ✓Low Fees





███
███
███
███
███
███





███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███

◣Whitepaper ◣ANN ThreadTelegram
◣ Facebook     ◣ Reddit          ◣ Slack


███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███





███
███
███
███
███
███








Hero/Legendary members
Seccour
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1619
Merit: 1004


Bitcoiner, Crypto-anarchist and Cypherpunk.


View Profile
December 29, 2013, 06:39:03 PM
 #26

ripple is the biggest scam coin then comes quark

How is Ripple a scam?

Ripple isn't really decentralized.

You can look at this site if you want : http://ripplescam.org/

digicoin
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1106
Merit: 1000



View Profile
December 29, 2013, 06:45:08 PM
 #27

CPU coins are bad technically.

Doge is not a scam coin.  Grin
LevelUP (OP)
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 11
Merit: 0


View Profile
December 29, 2013, 06:48:02 PM
 #28

Hi BitcoinTalk,

I'm new to Bitcointalk but not new to cryptocurrency so I wanted to point out a couple of observations Ive made regarding alt coins.

Floating point numbers in modern computers can go up to 2^53 or aprox 9.0x10^15 units... after this point the numerical system goes haywire (google it).

Bitcoin is 2.1 x 10^15 units, at 21,000,000 bitcoins divisible to 0.00000001 and Litecoin has 8.4x10^15 units (which is uncoincidentally close to the above mentioned limit)

In simple terms therefore DO NOT put money into any coin with more than 90,000,000 coins divisible to 8 decimal places (Quark, Dogecoin etc) unless you are a speculator playing the pump n dump market well as by definition its dead in the water.

 

Care to elaborate more on this topic ?

Why can't such coins reach the top of the foodchain in cryptocurrencies ?

I'm genuinely interested in the explanation. Quark seems to be holding quite nicely and according to you it shouldn't.

Fractalbc said it quite well above, essentially however, if the foating point number system goes above this number it's analogous to an odometer at 9,999,999 ticking over to 0,000,001, except the numbers dont follow a noticable pattern and can become negative. The concept reminds me of Y2K. Furthermore, how can one expect anyone to ultimately embrace a fundamentally flawed protocol when there are a plethora of viable currencies to choose from.

As for Quark, I have no crystal ball but I believe that most people dont understand the bigger picture and are essentially being manipulated by some clever players, hence why it has value. Short term go for it, but I see no intrinsic value to a premined, poorly distributed quark.   

As for some of the other comments, I dont disagree with anyone speculating for a quick and profitable turn using alt-coins, what is destructive and ultimately unethical is 'communities' of scammers.

R0ach, anyone who thinks that issuing a currency with an outrageous block reward resulting in a highly skewed money supply for early adopters isnt a scam is fooling themselves, but more than anything else, fooling those around him or her. Its a way of pseudo pre-mining... noone knew the race was about to start, noone knew the race would exponentially benefit those at the start more than anyone else by many factors and a few miners/insiders have large amounts of processing power ready to switch on at the word GO.

There is no economic justification, and ultimately economics will prevail here, for anyone to adopt a coin which has already centralized most of its value in the hands of a few, like quarkcoin.

Dogecoin is a meme, its money supply is a joke, akin to a premine and I wont be investing in a single coin long term when the money supply doesnt even compute on most computers. If there's a lesson to be learned it's that social media and a robust community and implementation of a cryptocurrency protocol can open the door for a legitimate coin to scoop some market share. That coin is not Doge. WOW.
MaGNeT
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526
Merit: 1002


Waves | 3PHMaGNeTJfqFfD4xuctgKdoxLX188QM8na


View Profile WWW
December 29, 2013, 06:51:56 PM
 #29

Hi BitcoinTalk,

I'm new to Bitcointalk but not new to cryptocurrency so I wanted to point out a couple of observations Ive made regarding alt coins.

Floating point numbers in modern computers can go up to 2^53 or aprox 9.0x10^15 units... after this point the numerical system goes haywire (google it).

Bitcoin is 2.1 x 10^15 units, at 21,000,000 bitcoins divisible to 0.00000001 and Litecoin has 8.4x10^15 units (which is uncoincidentally close to the above mentioned limit)

In simple terms therefore DO NOT put money into any coin with more than 90,000,000 coins divisible to 8 decimal places (Quark, Dogecoin etc) unless you are a speculator playing the pump n dump market well as by definition its dead in the water.

Also look out for 

1. Premined coins
2. Coins with very large block reward changing at rapid intervals. These coins don't need to be premined as the early adopters reward is so skewed there's no need to pre-mine in secret when a couple days headstart will do it. 
4. Coins which bring no utility to the marketplace.

The only positive thing I will say about Dogecoin is that it demonstrates the potential to use social media to distribute and educate the masses on a cryptocurrency, and ultimately, cleaning up the image is a matter branding if the coin is useful. With that said, it upsets me to see so many people getting scammed out of money by being greedy and believing the hype. Welcome to a world market, real businesses offer real service and real return. Leave the doges and cats to the young hackers/scammers. 

So actually you are saying CENT / Pennies (not divisible) is a good investment Smiley Thanks Smiley
Sukrim
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2618
Merit: 1006


View Profile
December 29, 2013, 09:52:10 PM
 #30

ripple is the biggest scam coin then comes quark

How is Ripple a scam?

Ripple isn't really decentralized.

You can look at this site if you want : http://ripplescam.org/
The informations on there are mostly wrong or misleading and there is no way to post comments to give a different opinion or updates (they are just not being "approved") like Ripple actually being Open Source for months now.

Please do some real research, https://www.google.com/search?q=bitcoin+scam turns up also pages that are very similar to ripplescam.org and still I rarely see people around here arguing that Bitcoin itself is a scam.

https://www.coinlend.org <-- automated lending at various exchanges.
https://www.bitfinex.com <-- Trade BTC for other currencies and vice versa.
blueangel01
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 406
Merit: 250

Hello! Send me a message.


View Profile
December 29, 2013, 10:16:27 PM
 #31

Anybody with 100 million doge coins to test it ?  Smiley

I have more than 100 million DIME... so how do we test it?

Msg me if you want me to put anything here.
Slingshot
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 616
Merit: 250


View Profile
December 30, 2013, 07:06:52 AM
Last edit: December 30, 2013, 07:31:26 AM by Slingshot
 #32

ripple is the biggest scam coin then comes quark

How is Ripple a scam?

Ripple isn't really decentralized.

You can look at this site if you want : http://ripplescam.org/
The informations on there are mostly wrong or misleading and there is no way to post comments to give a different opinion or updates (they are just not being "approved") like Ripple actually being Open Source for months now.

Please do some real research, https://www.google.com/search?q=bitcoin+scam turns up also pages that are very similar to ripplescam.org and still I rarely see people around here arguing that Bitcoin itself is a scam.

+1

 Just because some state something it doesn't make it so! Also there are lots of maybe well meaning folks that are simply wrong when they state certain things.

 Beware of anything and everything you read in these parts, and elsewhere, about any and every crypto, plus others such as Ripple. Some of it is clearly incorrect. And some are on a cruel mission to discredit honorable intentions by others.

 As for Ripple - it is NOT a scam. Not in the least! First and foremost Ripple is an electronic railroad of sorts. For hopefully a superior, more efficient, and much less costly Payment and Transfer of Funds Network. As compared to the present ones utilized at banks, western union and pay pal for instance.

 There is as much disinformation and misinformation as there is accurate information concerning many Crypto's, as well as Ripple and it's Payment & Transfer Network. In fact that's likely an understatement.

 Ripple as a crypto-currency is merely Ripples requirement for it's Network of Services, not not meant to be Ripples main value, nor will Ripple be valued like for instance Bitcoin since Ripples are meant to be the small fees for utilizing the Ripple Payment & Transfer Network, at least if I understand it all correctly, and finally I think I for one do.

 Ripple and Bitcoin are not in competition with each other in the real sense, unlike all the other Crypto's that of course are not bringing any such service feature as their main offering such as the Ripple Network offers right now.

 Will Ripple succeed? Only time will tell. But it is offering a possibly game-changing era for electronic payments and transfers, much like what e-mail did to postal mail, and that right there very well explains how game changing Ripple is apt to be if proven successful.

 Yet it's Bitcoin and other Crypto's that can ride on Ripples electronic railroad tracks for merely a few Ripples. So get one's facts clear before rushing to any conclusions first. Ripple is offering an Electronic Payment & Transfer Service first and foremost. It's "Ripples" are merely it's form of payment for said services. Much like a token elsewhere that one purchases for say maybe a bus or commuter train ride.

 Starting out like Ripple did doesn't make it a scam. It doesn't matter if it didn't start out as open source either. It's Open Source NOW in case anyone cares to review all the source code from what I understand. As for not starting out Decentralized well yea, that's true. Instead another novel approach was had. And if one pays closer attention then they too can get plenty of free Ripple with all the giveaways. Or merely purchase as few as needed for their 'electronic postage stamp' needs as they arise.

 Some think if it's not free, and Open Source, and Decentralized then it's no good at all. Or if the developers were greedy then it's no good at all. Well I likely have a real shock & awe breakthrough below for those types!!! Those same types would likely prefer Communist China too, as long as their the Dictator in Chief that is! These same ones are often as hypocritical as it gets when they then turn around and play the Pump and Dump with many others, or maybe pass along misinformation and disinformation without fully vetting that data first themselves. Or merely want to ride the coat-tails of what they believe to be the best Crypto's around without themselves doing much if anything for the causes herein.

 Since the reader made it this far: Figure out which crypto is by far to date the most profitable for it's creator(s) when it comes to the greed level of it's very own creator(s).
 
Hint:
Bitcoin Mints Its First Billionaire: Its Inventor, Satoshi Nakamoto
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=37333.0;all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWtNeaZxT54
http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/bitcoin-mints-its-first-billionaire-satoshi-nakamoto
http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/who-is-satoshi-nakamoto-the-creator-of-bitcoin
http://bitslog.wordpress.com/2013/04/17/the-well-deserved-fortune-of-satoshi-nakamoto/

Then look at the link below and notice that one cannot even tell by the graph that bitcoin was essentially massively insta-mined:
http://cryptometer.org/bitcoin_90_day_charts.html
http://cryptometer.org/index.html

 No, I am not against Bitcoin. Instead I am a firm backer of it, and any other deserving Crypto type too. I just refuse to play favorites, or hide any of the truth's.


 Back to Ripple. Ripple is no more a scam than any of the other Crypto-Commodity-Currencies. period. Fact is none of the Crypto's so far are anything remotely like a 'scam' since their very foundations are Bitcoin, at least all but the other novel types which are very few so far in number, and even they so far haven't been 'scams' at all. In fact the original founder of Mt. Gox is one of the founders of Ripple. And that gentleman has done a ton for Bitcoin in many various ways that obviously few even realize since they too haven't done their due diligence anywhere near as much as they had likely thought they have already! Instead they merely drank some cool-aid and took the hook, and line, with the sinker too. And swallowed it all whole when it comes to Ripple!


On to Crypto's in General:

 Just because so far not enough organic support has been had to usher in other crypto's to the level of bitcoin that doesn't mean it will always be that way. In fact somewhere during 2014 to 2016 will very likely be the arrival period of crypto's such as LTC and PPC into the mainstream, and very likely many other types of Crypto's too. Maybe not..., but I for one believe strongly this will be extremely motivated by those with larger stakes in them, and they plus others will blaze similar trails, just like Bitcoin already has. And it's apt to be an easier trail to blaze since Bitcoin already cut a path and broke through the forest, so to speak.

 With about 200 countries and over 7 billion souls on board this ship called earth the odds are extremely high imo that many types of crypto's, if not over a dozen, and ultimately maybe even dozens of crypto-currencies end up extremely well adopted thus successful long term. The only question is are they mostly already here, or are they mostly yet to even be created?

 Sure, some are more greedy, and others even much more unethical than others. That's the way of this world btw. But once the dust settles all that matters is how well their Adopted by the mainstream users, thus how well their MARKETED, and of course their very Foundations too, that are likely to set them up for the longer haul to the success circle of winners, at least as far as I am concerned that's how I see all this playing out.

 As for those that demanded more through either pre-mining or insta-mining, well as long as their greed factor wasn't too outrageous it really might not make any difference, and might just encourage those same developers to be much better motivated in making their creations a success in the longer term. And even if they are extremely greedy or demanding it doesn't make that a bad thing. At least for certain ones, if not many of them. Satoshi obviously deserves much credit and a ton of compensation. Yet so to does anyone else bringing new developments to the table, as in superior offerings. As long as the marketplace deems them worthy. It's not up to any of us, except as a group, as in the entire marketplace. And those that keep slighting and slanting things for their very own selfish, self centered greed are the lowest of all imo.

 Obviously there are many pump and dumps, but not really by design, instead merely opportunistic folk seeking opportunity with through new services or products. Except for maybe certain types which were mere copy cat clones offering little to nothing new at all, not even maybe a wonderful brand name which really helps in marketing anything to the masses!

 Simply put there is nothing wrong with demanding everything that the marketplace is willing to pay, up to a point at least, as long as it's not overwhelmingly a ripoff. Just like for instance our existing traditional debt fiat currencies loaned to all of us at usury rates of interest into perpetuity, and at such increasingly ruinous levels of interest payments that the debts are obviously both UN-payable, and unsustainable without what's laughably termed QE to near infinity at this extreme point in time, and all to merely attempt re-balance things barely enough to make it sustainable for another short while, all in the mean time is destroying the fiat savings of the masses of fools tolerating such blasphemy and evil, and that has enslaved many generations for the last century, and even longer in some parts of this world we share.

 I laugh all the time with the sorry state of bad information and wishful thinking around here. And the double standards many have. In fact maybe my own thoughts about just how many crypto's that will ultimately break through to see wide spread adoption is totally incorrect. Okay. But I for one will never merely trust and store my own assets in just one, two or even just three crypto types unless I am forced to do so, nor trust merely just one major type of traditional fiat with my liquid currency savings either. No chance of any of that ever again.

 Just realize their is a shit-storm of bad information and many parrot types thinking it's their duty to keep spreading (parroting) the very same misinformation and out right lies simply because they of course believe it's the gospel truth themselves are are trying to help others in the process of their efforts.

 There are lies, damn lies, and then there are Crypto-Lies. Best advice that anyone here can offer is do your very own due diligence and don't take anything offered at 'face value'. Instead always VERIFY. verify, verify. Otherwise the reader may end up getting played by the very ones he least suspected.

 For the NOOBS; click on the names of each the Crypto-types at http://coinmarketcap.com/ and start your own due diligence research there. Then of course explore this board, and use https://www.ixquick.com/ and https://startpage.com/ to safely and privately do your own searches on the web.

  Learn what all the various terms mean, compare the differences of each type of crypto, figure out which types are superior or offer something different, and which offers something else as well. Then ask yourself what is each one really aimed best at if anything in particular (target audience). Then realize this is all a community effort. Without us, or others supporting any of them these are not going anywhere.

 IMO: Odds are extremely high that many more than merely Bitcoin succeeds in the longer term, as does Decentralization of much more than mere currencies also succeed in the longer term. But it will take just as much community effort to make any of that happen. Bitcoin backers in general are not other crypto-types friends. Where as other types of crypto's are indeed supporting Bitcoin's meteoric rise by utilizing bitcoin to trade into and out of other crypto's so far. But that's about to end as soon as fiat to crypto is allowed, and when that hits suddenly the need for bitcoin to trade other crypto's is greatly diminished, oops. And unless Bitcoin backers care to be friends instead of foe then it's goodbye to needing bitcoins to trade anything else as far as some will be concerned and then finally Bitcoin will be left on it's own to fend for itself, just like every other type of Crypto.

 The point is no one is going to make anything succeed without a lot of real effort. Same thing for bitcoin. A lot of effort went into making Bitcoin get to where it is today. But it's not as advanced as certain other crypto types, and not as efficient to utilize as certain other crypto types, nor as well thought out either. Simply put bitcoin was the first, and everything else is built and designed with it in mind, but in general tried to improve upon that original Model T Ford (bitcoin), if one catches the point I am making. Yet Bitcoin has a substantial lead, and has broken through and become nearly a household name and brand. The other Crypto's have a long way to go to get that far, and a lot of efforts will be required to get that far to say the very least.




Caveat emptor - let the buyer beware!

fdylstyx
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 158
Merit: 100



View Profile
July 29, 2015, 03:20:38 PM
 #33

Some link out in "the wild" brought me to this thread. Considering the date of it's composition, and from members who may not even be around anymore, I, as a noob in crypto, still found it illuminating and thought others noobs might as well.

I wonder, seeing as there are so many cryptos and exchanges on which to trade these days, if any of the members (new and old) would care to spend some time adding to the arguments/reasoning in the light of today's crypto scene and how you foresee it playing out in the short term (2015-2020) and beyond.

NOTE to the mods; When I went to reply to this thread I encountered this...

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

...after consideration I chose to go ahead with my thoughts as stated above. Please allow this thread to continue on the course that serendipity allows.



Furthermore I came late to the crypto scene. I watched Bitcoin's fall continue from it's seemingly inevitable resurgence (from it's ATH of 2013) in the late spring of '14 where I almost bought in but decided to wait and watch. I consider myself a fortunate man but I do not consider myself a learned one. I did continue to watch Bitcoin tumble down as the Altcoins proliferated.

I stayed out and as counting myself as what would be considered by most (who have a full understanding of the math and the potential of Bitcoin and the Blockchain) a layman I tried my best to use what due diligence I could muster. I read, much was beyond my understanding but the potential I could not deny. Nor could I turn my attention away from the scene.

I watched the "fiat" value of bitcoin decline, joined in the fall of 2014 and watched through the winter of 2015 but I continued reading through much of the distractions here at btctalk and other sites. I watched real money being invested in this tech. I had an agenda myself but have since left that for a more amicable time, if one should ever come.

I am at this time a small holder and trader of BTC and other Alts. I personally believe this all is going to be a big part of the future. Well not all but the cream will rise to the top.


So, what do you people think about the term "scam"? Is it deserved? Is not all publicity good publicity? This crypto currency scene is very much like the discovery and harnessing the power of fire. Never mind the internet. Fire is still with us and causes great calamity but where would humanity be without it?

Crypto is math and math has been around at least as long as fire, imo longer because before fire was harnessed there were always a certain number of bellies to fill.

So will mankind learn to live with Crypto? Will Crypto find a way to improve the human condition as did fire?

Or is this all about money? And isn't money just fiat, and after all is said and done just a zero sum game?   



~may all hatred cease and let there be peace~

fdyl
KlondikeBear
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 115
Merit: 10


View Profile
July 29, 2015, 09:28:00 PM
Last edit: July 29, 2015, 09:58:34 PM by KlondikeBear
 #34

Hi BitcoinTalk,

I'm new to Bitcointalk but not new to cryptocurrency so I wanted to point out a couple of observations Ive made regarding alt coins.

Floating point numbers in modern computers can go up to 2^53 or aprox 9.0x10^15 units... after this point the numerical system goes haywire (google it).

Bitcoin is 2.1 x 10^15 units, at 21,000,000 bitcoins divisible to 0.00000001 and Litecoin has 8.4x10^15 units (which is uncoincidentally close to the above mentioned limit)

In simple terms therefore DO NOT put money into any coin with more than 90,000,000 coins divisible to 8 decimal places (Quark, Dogecoin etc) unless you are a speculator playing the pump n dump market well as by definition its dead in the water.

This topic has surprised me, because 99,999,999 MOON transactions are quite usual (the current worth of 100 mln is $65).
It works fine. I know it works fine for Karmacoin, too, and regarding some other bln coins.

Anybody with 100 million doge coins to test it ?  Smiley
If you want to test it with Dogecoin, 100 mln DOGE = 64 BTC, unfortunately currently I have not this amount of available bitcoins to buy DOGE and test it.
 


I've googled the subject and have found this information:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proper_Money_Handling_(JSON-RPC)
"If you are writing software that uses the JSON-RPC interface you need to be aware of possible floating-point conversion issues. You, or the JSON library you are using, should convert amounts to either a fixed-point Decimal representation (with 8 digits after the decimal point) or ideally a 64-bit integer representation. In either case, rounding values is required."

http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2009/04/06/numbers-are-a-leaky-abstraction/
"Most explanations I’ve heard for the limitations of machine numbers are pedantic. “There are only a finite number of floating point numbers so they can’t represent real numbers well.” That’s not much help. It doesn’t explain why floating point numbers actually do represent real numbers sufficiently well for most applications, and it doesn’t suggest where the abstraction might leak.

A standard floating point number has roughly 16 decimal places of precision and a maximum value on the order of 10^308, a 1 followed by 308 zeros. (According to IEEE standard 754, the typical floating point implementation.)"

http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2009/04/06/anatomy-of-a-floating-point-number/
"A floating point number has 64 bits that encode a number of the form ± p × 2e. The first bit encodes the sign, 0 for positive numbers and 1 for negative numbers. The next 11 bits encode the exponent e, and the last 52 bits encode the precision p. The encoding of the exponent and precision require some explanation.

The exponent is stored with a bias of 1023. That is, positive and negative exponents are all stored in a single positive number by storing e + 1023 rather than storing e directly. Eleven bits can represent integers from 0 up to 2047. Subtracting the bias, this corresponds to values of e from -1023 to +1024. Define e min = -1022 and e max = +1023. The values e min – 1 and e max + 1 are reserved for special use.

Since the largest exponent is 1023 and the largest significant is 1.f where f has 52 ones, the largest floating point number is 2^1023≈ 1.8 × 10^308. In C, this constant is defined as DBL_MAX, defined in <float.h>."


If you don't agree, please argue.

the Nash equilibrium?
Monopoly
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 546
Merit: 500



View Profile
July 30, 2015, 12:20:22 AM
 #35

All centralized coins and some uncentralizer coins that premined are scams .
markm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090



View Profile WWW
July 30, 2015, 04:27:33 AM
 #36

In a way DOGE is the scam that showed up Litecoin as a scam.

Because the security basis of Proof of Work coins, if they are to have significant real value, is not simply that they are so worthless that they aren't worth deploying enough hashing power to beat them but, rather, that the quantity of the world's ability to perform such hashing that is devoted to defending the chain exceeds the rest of the hashing power on the planet.

DOGE was a scam in the sense that it scammed people into undermining Litecoin, which some people had imagined to have so much hashing power that it was secure, or at least "sufficiently secure".

It scammed people, by using a stupid meme, into providing it so much hashing power almost overnight that if the meme had bee "lets trash litecoin" instead of being "lets churn out yet another garbage clone coin", it could have accomplished that and even gone on the defeat all the scrypt coins if the meme had been, say, "lets trash ALL the scrypt coins".

So basically by scamming people into showing how little hashing power the most highly hashed of all scrypt coins really had, so fickle that just some stupid meme could beat it almost overnight, DOGE showed that all the scrypt coins were basically scams, whose devs might even have scammed even temselves into imagining they were secure enough to be taken seriously as a currency or store of value.

It basically also thereby showed itself up as equally a scam.

The fundamental scam here is implying to potential users that the pathetically insecure scrypt coins were secure enough to risk putting real wealth into.

But hey, at least DOGE and Litecoin did, between them, actually have quite a lot of hashing power.

There is an even worse scam, the sheer marketing wins all scam, which I have seen around here from time to time, where some marketer who is probably of the school of thought that once you can scam enough people out of real wealth by making vapourware claims you can then hire or buy-up any real solutions that happen along that can even be remotely marketed as being just the very thing their vapourware claims were on about thus that it is okay to bullshit and lie and obfuscate and go on about some vapourware possibly technically impossible greatest thing since sliced bread because if you thus raise enough money you can always afford to cover your actual arse later.

They say things like "it isn't the university with the most security guards that is the best university but, rather, the best university, by attracting the most money, that affords the most security guards" to justify scamming money out of people using some utterly insecure bullshit such as a litecoin clone, figuring if they do happen to decide not to run off with all the wealth they could in principle hire enough miners to secure the thing.

Thing is, bank vaults aren't quite like universities, are they?
Because the security basis of Proof of Work coins is that

"Lets pile all our money on one windowsill in one wet paper bag with one "steal me please" sign on it and we'll have such a huge pile we'll be able to afford to buy a vault" isn't that great a foundation for a bank vault, is it?

Proof of work is a hideously expensive way of securing a blockchain. Diverting hashing power away from all the chains it could be securing at once via merged mining is an attack, in effect, against all those chains.

DOGE initially demonstrated their full open eyes intent to scam by refusing to support being merged mined as a child chain, which of course should have been something built into it from launch.

Because the security basis of Proof of Work coins is that
They preferred to victimise all the users of scrypt coins by undermining the security of all scrypt-secured wealth, and didn't give a damn about that so long as they could make a buck by doing it.

So not only was it a scam, it was, clearly, perpetrated by scammers. They scammed miners into under-mining (pun intended, it seems) the security of all the chains that had been basically the customers of the miners, admittedly doing the service of showing us all that scrypt PoW chains were not, and probably still are not, secure.

-MarkM-

Browser-launched Crossfire client now online (select CrossCiv server for Galactic  Milieu)
Free website hosting with PHP, MySQL etc: http://hosting.knotwork.com/
KlondikeBear
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 115
Merit: 10


View Profile
July 30, 2015, 08:11:53 AM
 #37

MarkM,    
if PoW coins are so insecure, why then altcoin exchanges, Cryptsy, Bittrex still exist?   
If they are just "in a wet paper bag on a windowsill of an open window with a big sign saying "steal me!" on it."   

Scams, scams... but what about a floating point number?

the Nash equilibrium?
Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!