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Author Topic: I've contemplated why man has created government...  (Read 2717 times)
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August 24, 2011, 04:57:10 AM
 #1

...then the answer appeared right in front of me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COwfIhvRtNw

Morpheus: God was a dream of great government.

Morpheus: You will soon have your god and you will make it with your own hands.

Humanity has been religious for most of its existence out of the craving for meaning, comfort and judgement. We want to be provisioned and esteemed by a higher cause and the state fills that role. As culture remains, most of us will primally submit to authority. People will deny god but then revere a state to fill the void.

Our dream of authority might be a psychological mutation that may or may not serve a good purpose. Its cores may support other human relationships. It may be higher-level and only be a long-term cultural pandemic that served great purpose in our early inception and has long since become vestigial.

Whatever it may be, humans tend not to look to themselves for comfort but to something above them. Governments, gods and other authorities serve that role. Some have left completely them such as I; however, I am but a part of a minority.  

My conclusion: The need for acknowledgment from a subordinate or a love for being governed upon is religious and probably primal and not out of any particular utilitarian need, as shown by how fallible and evil government can be for as long as it has.

...and this lust -- the lust for power if truly primal is dangerous. As shown by our other desires that have lead to acts of sexual rape, there are rapists of society in this world and our power structures enable them; which comes to no surprise.
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ThomasAnderson
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August 29, 2011, 02:01:59 AM
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Nope, you've got it wrong.

Fear was most probably the first motivator for supernatural, that is religion. After that, somebody offered security through religion as well, hence we found all this bullshit (-> goverment etc).

You can fool people into believing any shit that makes zero sense if they don't have tools in their mind to deconstruct and detect bullshit of that particular kind. Religion, government, sects, racism, nationalism, divine right of kings, human sacrifice as part of some ritual (fear?) etc... I'm not saying everything in this paragraph makes zero sence but stil.

Everything social in this world works because something or somebody has some kind of interest in doing things that particular way... no matter how small it may be or how stupid (just liking the religion?).

http://www.clearbits.net/torrents/164-god-wants-you-dead

Here is some food for your thoughts... Smiley Gives a nice explanation about how ideas work, spread, and become what they become (religion, government, etc)

Basically, the first two chapters explain the important stuff, the rest is the first two chapters in terms of different ideas like religion, government, simple memes like "look both sides when you cross a street" etc...

Let me know what you think if you happen to browse the book (and yes, this is a legal torrent).
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August 29, 2011, 12:34:36 PM
 #3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrW-ZU3X-zU
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August 29, 2011, 01:26:16 PM
 #4

It's no accident that the Gaia Hypothesis was named after the grandmother of Zeus.

Human desire is the netrin which developed the nervous system, satellites, telescopes, computers and networks. Humans, in exploring space are the gametes, zygotes, or spores which may germinate from our conspired creation.

We are god, individually or collectively. Jesus said as much. The kingdom of heaven is upon us in the here and now if we choose to accept. In death, when our senses collapse upon us, we are ultimate, and pass unmerciful judgment upon ourselves, and create our next reality as we see fit for ourselves, whether that is heaven, hell, reincarnation as a toad or god.

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August 29, 2011, 01:40:47 PM
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Religion has next to nothing to do with it.  The term that you are looking for is belief.  Specificly a belief that the unknown constitutes a threat.  In the age of city-states and before, that unknown was the intent and abilities of differing cultures beyond the line of sight of the city tower.  Governments formed for the collective defense of small communities, thus appointing the most able among themselves to direct such a collective defense against threats both real and imagined.  Over generations, however, the families who abandoned yeomanship in favor of professional security became a warrior class; distinct from the community they were intended to protect.  After this point, the lack of identity with the community at large would create a situation wherein the ambitions of those in the warrior class (during periods of particular peace and stability) led to the creation of a political class in command of the warrior class.  And thus the betrayal of the common citizenry was complete.  Essentially, all governments are up-sized protection rackets.  The modern pretense of civil control is simply a matter of progression.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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August 29, 2011, 02:02:31 PM
 #6

Religion has next to nothing to do with it.

The muslims see it most succinctly; Islam=Submission.

I think the human tendency to the collective, to willingly conform and submit must be one and the same explanation for belief (self deception) and worship (engaging in rituals) of imaginary supreme beings, whether they sit on Cloud Nine or One Pennsylvania Ave.

The metaphors of parental figures and deities are all mixed up. Our Father of the Kingdom of Heaven. Father of the Republic. Lord of the Land. Supreme Ruler.

Incidentally, Sin = Guilt = Debt in the original Hebrew. Birth is the original Debt. We're taught at an early age that our birth parents have rights over us granted by the earth parent (government) whose sovereignty is blessed by the ultimate parent (god) who was created by the parent of all ignorance (ourselves).

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August 29, 2011, 02:09:01 PM
 #7

I'm very into awareness, consciousness, spirituality, philosophy, and have always been a non hive thinker.
I've read every (well not every but every major) religions holy books, I've studied all the hermetic, Gnostic, and secret societies and ancient wisdom schools, I have probably also read every major work on sacred texts. I've experimented with everything from occult magic to pyramids to nlp and the one thing that I have found is that you become what you think about, and the more you think about it and take even little steps towards it, and the more you believe this, it manifests and you attract others of like mind.  You can call it law of attraction or whatever you want, but I'm not talking about reading the book "The Secret".

In all I have learned, and then practically applied in tests to see results in my life, dreams, being, it comes down to this:

We are all what you would term 'God' or ONE or energy or connected or chi or the One Infinite Creator or __________ insert whatever fits your bill there.  

Like a heartbeat, and like breathing, we go through energy cycles of separation and connection or oneness.... back to being in oneness, then into our uniqueness.  In actuality we are always one, but our perception shifts. Both are a wonderful thing.  The unique you is a filter through which you get to look at the rest of you - other selves, supposedly physical items, and have experience.  Your belief systems create these experiences.   This 3d/4d world is slower at manifesting but that is speeding up.  In your dreams, things can be non linear and be created out of thin air - here it takes longer and is more linear, but that is only an illusion. Both can be dreams, thought is what is real, the only thing that can be proven is that you exist and are having experience.  Since this is so, you have always existed and will always exist, it is only your experience and form that changes - you are in an eternal moment that is a bubble, time is not linear.  If time were truly linear, there would be an infinite amount of time before your birth, so this current you couldn't possibly be reading this.

Most people give up the quest to really KNOW just what the hell is going on here?  They are too busy running the rat wheel to maintain their material possession life style. It unfortunately usually requires some great tragedy, hardship, sadness, or suffering to form a catalyst to finally wake up out of the sheeple heard that is society.  Most people are not original thinkers and living what they were told to live, but they think they made it up.  This is not bad as it sounds as eventually, everyone will wake up, because everyone is one.

Government & religion, while sometimes having good intentions,  always decay into control & power structures that impose fear on the non adept or uninitiated spirit.  

"I'm too busy to think about my being, I have to go to WORK and do REAL stuff to make money, I have a mortgage for christ's sake, don't talk to me about this new age bullshit." Will be most people's reply to any sort of discussion like this.  The system was designed that way be a few individuals who wished to retain power and the knowledge of everyone's true potential to themselves.

This can clearly be seen all around the world in the massive fear mongering that dominates almost every news broadcast, which is then followed 90% of the time by an anti depressant medication commercial or some other BS drug that does not heal anything, but just makes one sicker.

Because of this, most enlightenment schools simply went secretive, because all of everything is within you, not without you, and you must seek within and grow in your own Gnostic experience. No one can TELL you truth, and every truth is relative until you know something for your own self.  

I don't know what the hell I am doing here talking about this on the bitcoin forums, but I felt like writing it. I hope it stirs something in you, or perhaps I'm just a lunatic.

- Blackout


  

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August 29, 2011, 02:39:16 PM
 #8

We are all what you would term 'God' or ONE
...
Government & religion, while sometimes having good intentions,  always decay into control & power structures that impose fear on the non adept or uninitiated spirit.  

Sure, it's all a conflict between our own desires for comfort against others' desires and against the comfort of the collective, in numerous levels and interdependencies. Ultimately we are organisms that exist only because we can control our environment, which of course includes other organisms. Our strategies include the purely selfish, cooperative, and deceitful.

The primary desire is survival. From this comes the ego, which spawns the whole glorious mess.

On the path to enlightenment we need to find a balance, a middle road, between personal gain and mutual benefit. There are no successfully predefined 'isms' (individualism, socialism, anarchism) that we can blindly follow. The trick is to be aware now and make the wisest choice given the unique situation at hand. The only preparation is diligent concentration on and awareness of the present.

Is Biology among your theological bookshelves. The Selfish Gene is an inspired text.

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August 29, 2011, 02:45:19 PM
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There could be a simpler explanation.  We are tribal by nature and in tribes, the chief acts as decision maker in disputes and leads the defence of the tribe against other tribes.  Once tribes got to a certain size, the chiefs would have needed admin staff to look after decision making and enforcement staff to look after raising fighting forces. And there you have the roots of government.

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August 29, 2011, 02:53:43 PM
 #10

I interpret the OP asking why we continue to submit to governments. I think it's a genetic semi-altruistic tendency, including a deference to parents. Both religion and government are attempts to understand, exert control over, and protection from the frightening unknown. Our susceptibility to control I think is a survival instinct that creates the bond between child and mother that we never quite ween.

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August 29, 2011, 03:01:03 PM
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I interpret the OP asking why we continue to submit to governments. I think it's a genetic semi-altruistic tendency, including a deference to parents. Both religion and government are attempts to understand, exert control over, and protection from the frightening unknown. Our susceptibility to control I think is a survival instinct that creates the bond between child and mother that we never quite ween.

Perhaps thats part of the picture. 

But also a big part of the picture is the same reason we submit to referees in football games.  Society has an agreed set of rules and has an agreed set of people to enforce them.  Very few people "submit" to the state because they regard the state as acting on their behalf.

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August 29, 2011, 04:22:55 PM
 #12

Certainly. Even societies of thieves have rules, morals, customs, and obligations. Which I suppose is part of what 'society' means.

Animals have societies too, many have hierarchies and family raising, but as far as I know, they don't have religion. So it doesn't seem to follow that we are creating government in order to construct a god. I think god is just an ideal, be it family, government, or life. It's inevitable that with man's creation of a perfection in his own image that any powerful imperfection (say nobility) will attribute those qualities upon themselves for marketing and public relations.


But also a big part of the picture is the same reason we submit to referees in football games.  Society has an agreed set of rules and has an agreed set of people to enforce them.  Very few people "submit" to the state because they regard the state as acting on their behalf.

Interesting point, but games, like dreams, are ways for us to hone our survival skills. When games are invented by children, they come up with the rules as compromises to make it mutually beneficial, but both the play and the generation of the rules are a power struggle. Once the rules are codified, they struggle for power within those frameworks and very often break the rules if they think they can get away with it, while appealing to the rules if they've been cheated by others or can convince the ref to their own advantage. Thus the 'rules' are only constraints of reality (even if imagined). The fact that they helped generate (or agreed to accept) the rules that now constrain them are 'sunk costs'.

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August 29, 2011, 04:45:18 PM
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Certainly. Even societies of thieves have rules, morals, customs, and obligations. Which I suppose is part of what 'society' means.

Animals have societies too, many have hierarchies and family raising, but as far as I know, they don't have religion. So it doesn't seem to follow that we are creating government in order to construct a god. I think god is just an ideal, be it family, government, or life. It's inevitable that with man's creation of a perfection in his own image that any powerful imperfection (say nobility) will attribute those qualities upon themselves for marketing and public relations.


But also a big part of the picture is the same reason we submit to referees in football games.  Society has an agreed set of rules and has an agreed set of people to enforce them.  Very few people "submit" to the state because they regard the state as acting on their behalf.

Interesting point, but games, like dreams, are ways for us to hone our survival skills. When games are invented by children, they come up with the rules as compromises to make it mutually beneficial, but both the play and the generation of the rules are a power struggle. Once the rules are codified, they struggle for power within those frameworks and very often break the rules if they think they can get away with it, while appealing to the rules if they've been cheated by others or can convince the ref to their own advantage. Thus the 'rules' are only constraints of reality (even if imagined). The fact that they helped generate (or agreed to accept) the rules that now constrain them are 'sunk costs'.


I agree completely.  And once the rules are set, the power struggle is channelled in a way that all participants agree is good for the group even if as individuals they cheat. 

Sounds like government doesn't it?  We do drive over the speed limit but we still agree that a speed limit is a good idea.  We do dodge taxes but we agree that roads, police, etc. are needed.  There is very little submission really - society is primarily collaborative.

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August 29, 2011, 05:28:14 PM
 #14



My conclusion: The need for acknowledgment from a subordinate or a love for being governed upon is religious and probably primal and not out of any particular utilitarian need, as shown by how fallible and evil government can be for as long as it has.


Yes indeed, and I believe it comes out of the unconscious understanding that "I" (whatever that means) am my own government upon my body, mind, soul and spirit. Just as "YOU" are for yours. By birthright. As such it is deeply and personally religious as opposed to "following" religious.

If we need society as a functioning body, then we need an influencing authority somehow, even if we might not call it government, religion, drug lord or whatever.

We cannot think or create something which does not exist inside ourselves first. And vice versa, if something exists inside, it will sometime find its expression in our conscious life and dealings.

Society and government are made in the image of ourselves. And then we make ourselves in the image of them, because it is the easiest path to take instead of the long winding road of self development and understanding. Alas, this is what fucks things up.


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August 29, 2011, 05:59:12 PM
 #15

once the rules are set, the power struggle is channelled in a way that all participants agree is good for the group even if as individuals they cheat.

I don't think that's strictly true. It is only that the (whole of subset of) participants feel the cost of rebellion is greater than the disadvantages of participation, otherwise they revolt or flee. I don't think even the ruling generals in Burma's junta thought it was a good system or that they were ultimately benefiting.

Even consistent losers may enjoy a game, but if players feel that the rules are stacked against them or that they have better alternatives (with respect to all rules like social cohesion, etc), they won't play.

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August 29, 2011, 06:19:02 PM
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once the rules are set, the power struggle is channelled in a way that all participants agree is good for the group even if as individuals they cheat.

I don't think that's strictly true. It is only that the (whole of subset of) participants feel the cost of rebellion is greater than the disadvantages of participation, otherwise they revolt or flee. I don't think even the ruling generals in Burma's junta thought it was a good system or that they were ultimately benefiting.

Even consistent losers may enjoy a game, but if players feel that the rules are stacked against them or that they have better alternatives (with respect to all rules like social cohesion, etc), they won't play.

True.  But then we are discussing what is a legitimate form of government.  My understand is that OP was regarding the existence of any government at all as based on ignorant superstition and illegitimate.

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August 29, 2011, 07:53:04 PM
 #17

A conclusion reached from a video game?

Government could only have formed with the desire for power. Followers could have been gained through bribes but also fear and confusion. Old governments were largely kept together through the armies and hence the leaders required to satisfy the army. They ruled by might and with an iron fist.

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August 30, 2011, 04:36:29 PM
 #18

I jus discovered that the "newbie protection" in Villages Online is a fig-leaf.

You get to display a dove image on your profile that supposedly indicates you are "protected".

I wondered whether the players would actually honour the thing, so I came here remembering one often finds libertarians here and they apparently are just what such a world needs, since it is a free market in which anyone is free order their armies around as they choose.

Will a libertarian paradise emerge?

How will they deal with the problem that barbarians might rake in more resources than they do due to having no qualms about looting newbies?

Are there still liberatarians around here? Lets see how it actually plays out without a "higher power" (the scripts of the game) providing "protection" to newbies...

Join the coin wars at Villages Online!

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August 30, 2011, 05:41:11 PM
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Yes indeed, and I believe it comes out of the unconscious understanding that "I" (whatever that means) am my own government upon my body, mind, soul and spirit. Just as "YOU" are for yours. By birthright. As such it is deeply and personally religious as opposed to "following" religious.

I'm assuming "I" in quotes alludes to the teachings of anattā (no-self), the negation of the personal ātman (self ego) XOR to the philosophical antithesis, a big daddy of all interconnected Ātman (One, Ultimate Soul, Godself, Reality, Momma's Homemade Cook'n). And either are cool if you aspire toward a selfless, truly kind and loving, Barney the Purple Dinosaur society, but you'll be immune to others' expression of their egos only if you truly abandon your own ego. But there's the rub.

Anarchy would work brilliantly if everyone respected axiomatic moral codes. We build governments because people don't. Either the a$sholes create the government or the meek band together in opposition, but either way egos use whatever power structures are at hand to further express and elevate themselves, otherwise they create those power structures, whether church, government, or knitting club.

Ideal society arises ONLY from the individual, who may inspire by example but must be immune to the uninspired, and be willing to suffer the consequences of his determination to the very end.

Appamāda!

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August 31, 2011, 04:51:14 AM
 #20

Yes indeed, and I believe it comes out of the unconscious understanding that "I" (whatever that means) am my own government upon my body, mind, soul and spirit. Just as "YOU" are for yours. By birthright. As such it is deeply and personally religious as opposed to "following" religious.

I'm assuming "I" in quotes alludes to the teachings of anattā (no-self), the negation of the personal ātman (self ego) XOR to the philosophical antithesis, a big daddy of all interconnected Ātman (One, Ultimate Soul, Godself, Reality, Momma's Homemade Cook'n).
Would someone need to delve into Buddhism to figure out what I stated? I, for what it's worth, haven't. I know it's not new, original thought in the context of the history of world religions, but I'm talking about my personal one.
And either are cool if you aspire toward a selfless, truly kind and loving, Barney the Purple Dinosaur society, but you'll be immune to others' expression of their egos only if you truly abandon your own ego. But there's the rub.
Getting there...

Anarchy would work brilliantly if everyone respected axiomatic moral codes. We build governments because people don't. Either the a$sholes create the government or the meek band together in opposition, but either way egos use whatever power structures are at hand to further express and elevate themselves, otherwise they create those power structures, whether church, government, or knitting club.
Correct deduction, on an imaginary premise. Humans have the ability to choose (that does not mean they choose what is beneficial for them and for society) therefore you will always have some who will choose to not respect those moral codes, given an incentive. And the weak hands will always be influenced by the strong hands, thus a government of sorts. I've lived in anarchic communes when I was young, and I've seen the "government" in action. Regardless of what I would hope for or believe.

Ideal society arises ONLY from the individual, who may inspire by example but must be immune to the uninspired, and be willing to suffer the consequences of his determination to the very end.
Fully agreed with the exception of the "ideal" adjective. I'm not looking for such a thing anymore. A 1% improvement per year is good enough for me.
[/quote]
Appamāda!
Needful indeed.

Fiat no more.
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