Hot times in Ireland

[Bimmerhead]

"It is not even take it or leave it. It's done. Ireland's only role in this now is to implement the programme agreed with the EU, IMF and European Central Bank. Irish voters are not a party in this process, whatever they have been told," said the diplomat.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/8349497/Irelands-new-government-on-a-collision-course-with-EU.html

"We have a hostage, it is called the euro," he said. "The euro is insolvent. The only question is whether Ireland should be sacrificed to keep the Ponzi scheme going. We have to have a Plan B to the misnamed bailout, which is to go back to the Irish Punt."

This is going to fantastic to watch.  Will the Irish stand up to the EU Monster?  They've done it before...

[1714166378]

1714166378

[1714166378]

1714166378

[1714166378]

1714166378

[Cryptoman]

"...Irish voters are not a party in this process, whatever they have been told," said the diplomat.

So this means the Irish voters won't be expected to carry any extra tax burden on account of this either, right?

[Nefario]

They probably wont stand up, they'll do what they are told, and look at their feet while doing so.

[ribuck]

This is is stark contrast with the UK, where the Royal Bank of Scotland is in the taxpayer's hands after being bailed out.

It just posted another  loss, this time of around a thousand million pounds. And, surprise, the bank's expenses included around a thousand million pounds of bonuses, including a hundred bankers who each got a bonus of a million pounds or more.

So every family in the UK is paying fifty pounds of tax to make sure that people richer than them continue to collect these enormous bonuses for a failed bank.

And the UK taxpayer laps this up with barely a murmur.

[genjix]

What's wrong with the Euro currency? Don't know too much about this.

[Nefario]

What's wrong with the Euro currency? Don't know too much about this.

Basically the same as with USD and GBP. Parasite is killing the host.

Its worse than that. With the Euro we have all these different economies in different stages of boom and bust, but with a monitary policy suited to just one stage.
So when Ireland was in a boom the Euro had interest rates for a bust Germany. Now Ireland and others are bust (as a result of being out of sync with the Euro) and the interest rates are being set to suit booming Germany.
And there is nothing Ireland can do as long as it remains in the Euro, and Irelands political class are in the EU's pocket.

[BCEmporium]

Ireland complaint on Euro?! What a laugh!

Irish has no one to blame but themselves, it wasn't "Euro's Ponzi scheme" that went down, it was the Irish one to do it. Growing up by create a sort of offshore has this issues. They waged and still wage too much for the wealth Ireland can produce, they went looking for investors by basically helping them to evade taxes.
On the other hand, an offshore-State right next to UK is little more than unfair concurrence. To get help they need to close their offshore, so the Ponzi scheme goes away and companies like Google may move out... too bad!

[BCEmporium]

Vladimir,

Then you would need at least a portable device able to deal with BTC and still Ireland wouldn't be controlling its own economy. Not much different from what they already have with Euro. They wouldn't be bankrupt of Euros - which can be produced on demand by ECB - would be bankrupt of Bitcoins - which can't be produced on demand - ; either way they would be bankrupt.
Using the Eire would able the government to control (in this case to create) inflation, which ends up to be yet another scam; you wage the same, but your money worth less.

There's no economy other than real economy. All others, are little more than scams.

It's like the "genius western idea" about China. We handle them our real economy, the means of production, and in exchange, as such produces never-ending debt and sooner or later China can buy the World for create its own playground, we sell them our "extremely expensive" services.
I don't know who was the genius behind this Ponzi idea, but he forgot a tiny detail; he though Chinese were stupid and will not develop their own services - ending up controlling not only the real economy but also the "Ponzi" economy.

[Nefario]

Ireland complaint on Euro?! What a laugh!

Irish has no one to blame but themselves, it wasn't "Euro's Ponzi scheme" that went down, it was the Irish one to do it. Growing up by create a sort of offshore has this issues. They waged and still wage too much for the wealth Ireland can produce, they went looking for investors by basically helping them to evade taxes.
On the other hand, an offshore-State right next to UK is little more than unfair concurrence. To get help they need to close their offshore, so the Ponzi scheme goes away and companies like Google may move out... too bad!

Wow you really have no idea do you, Ireland is where I went to school & college, and I left just at the height of the whole thing in 2009.

The problem is not and has never been that ordinary Irish people borrowed too much, many did, but certainly not the majority.The banks however lent massive amounts to a small number of builders and speculators, who when the crash came, brought the banks with them.

And what happened? The Irish government guaranteed to bail out the banks if needed, and that is exactly what has happened. The government essentially said the tax payers will cover it. That is everyone, whether they borrowed or not.

In a way yes the Irish do have themselves to blame, thay are the ones who joined the Euro, and signed away many of their freedoms as a result. But make not mistake, it was membership of the Euro that caused the property bubble, being part of the Euro gave Ireland record low interest rates at a time when the economy was booming. I was there, I saw the crazyness of it all. 100% mortgages at rates of 4%. I saw inflation jump through the roof. Minimum wage was €8.50 an hour.

Now the Uk was doing the exact same at the time, to a certain extent, however they have the pound, which has acted as a buffer using devaluation to give everyone a big wage cut.

You think this is ordinary people who did this? This is the work of a few in powerful places who have f****d up and are making everyone pay. I had a great job, I worked in Sun MicroSystems before being fired. And then there was nothing me or my family could do, I couldn't even get a job in a slaughter house cleaning up animal guts. So we returned to China.

[BCEmporium]

Nefario,

I'm not blaming it on the common people, obviously common people doesn't set tax rates or regulation. But their government policies were aiming to create a state-wide offshore. Ever wonder why Sun Microsystems was settle there? And most heavy-weight American IT companies?

The people just ran after the "candy", as you said 100% mortgages for 4% - same here by the way, Portugal is in the same boat on that one, despite hadn't engaged that "tax-exempt/flee" offshore-like policy to drag foreigner investment, but engaged the "easy-credit" one.

But in the end Euro ends up actually to be one of the reasons Ireland didn't sunk further, as the alternative would be a devaluation of their own currency to nearly nothing.
Prior to blame the Euro, check what happened to Iceland. And this one was just about "easy-credit", like Portugal and Spain. Greece and Ireland includes other reasons.

Now I understand their concern, as the "tax flee fountain dries" those foreigner companies get away to some more attractive places; those companies are indeed the parasites, not the currency, and they find themselves with a huge debt they generated and without means of production to pay it.

[BCEmporium]

Yes, allow the bankers to go bankrupt helps. At least you just "sunk" a few dozen, the alternative of aiding them sunks your whole people. Either one there're some who have to sunk, one to be saved other to sacrifice, question is in the damage-control; "Who worth more to you?"; Iceland answered the people, Ireland answered the bankers.

Also we can't do little more than speculate the outcome. I see many economists to look like regular Astrologists, attempt to preview the future 50+ years ahead in time. As those are little more than an add up to the problem, and none to the solution, I wonder why governments and institutions will not start using Astrologists, Witches, Wizards and alike for such previsions. They are pretty much as valid as those "witchcraft-Economists" and way cheaper.

[srb123]

I've read that their collapse was caused by a Housing Construciton Bubble (1 in 4 irish worked in Construction at it's height.), The Govt let Developers and Banker run wild, and now there are as many as 300,000 unoccupied homes.

Now their saying that yet another generation of irish are jumping ship for greener pastures, but this time they're heading for Australia, instead of New York like they did in the 1800's.

This is great for me, cause they are always great to drink with.

[bitdragon]

Here is one such an article:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/economy/news/article.cfm?c_id=34&objectid=10706907

[Bimmerhead]

The Iceland comparison is interesting, I thought it would be interesting to see how they fair.  I suspect they will do extremely well in the coming years since they choose the less interventionist way forward.

Does anyone on here have first hand Iceland experience?  Any bitcoiners in Iceland?  Any bitcoiners in Ireland, for that matter?

[Nefario]

The Iceland comparison is interesting, I thought it would be interesting to see how they fair.  I suspect they will do extremely well in the coming years since they choose the less interventionist way forward.

Does anyone on here have first hand Iceland experience?  Any bitcoiners in Iceland?  Any bitcoiners in Ireland, for that matter?

I was in Ireland, until the economic situation forced me and my family to leave.

[error]

Also we can't do little more than speculate the outcome. I see many economists to look like regular Astrologists, attempt to preview the future 50+ years ahead in time. As those are little more than an add up to the problem, and none to the solution, I wonder why governments and institutions will not start using Astrologists, Witches, Wizards and alike for such previsions. They are pretty much as valid as those "witchcraft-Economists" and way cheaper.

But they already do use astrologers, witches and wizards! You see, there was once a man named Keynes, who was the godfather of modern economic astrology....

[Nefario]

Ireland complaint on Euro?! What a laugh!

Irish has no one to blame but themselves, it wasn't "Euro's Ponzi scheme" that went down, it was the Irish one to do it. Growing up by create a sort of offshore has this issues. They waged and still wage too much for the wealth Ireland can produce, they went looking for investors by basically helping them to evade taxes.
On the other hand, an offshore-State right next to UK is little more than unfair concurrence. To get help they need to close their offshore, so the Ponzi scheme goes away and companies like Google may move out... too bad!

I'm not blaming it on the common people, obviously common people doesn't set tax rates or regulation. But their government policies were aiming to create a state-wide offshore. Ever wonder why Sun Microsystems was settle there? And most heavy-weight American IT companies?

Having a lower tax rate for companies than your neighboring countries is not "offshoring", it called competition and if a country doesn't want to compete on price then it doesn't have to. But there is nothing wrong with those who do.

The fundamental point of your argument though is wrong, Ireland did not attract foreign companies (such as Google, Microsoft) simply by having a low tax rate. As there are a number of EU coutries with lower tax rates than Ireland. It attracted them with lower tax rates, being English speaking (remember most of these companies were American), and by having a highly educated and capable workforce.

The largest industries in Ireland(not including banking) are Software and Pharma, these require skilled, capable workers and the fact that they happen to speak English and get along quite well with Americans is why Ireland was chosen. OK these companies could have chosen the UK for those reasons but Ireland was more competitive because of the much lower tax rate.

Also on the issue of currency, if Ireland was to switch to bitcoin(not going to happen but lets imagine) yes it would have the same problems. Being that the government took on the debt of the banks and is making the people pay. Changing the national currency to btc won't fix that.

I also think that Iceland and Ireland are two great experiments, both are small countries, both had pretty much the same problem during the credit crisis, and both chose different ways. Iceland let the banks go bust and devalued their national currency, Ireland bailed out their banks and remained part of the Euro. This is about as close as you can get to a countrywide economic experiment as possilbe.

[BCEmporium]

There's Nefario,

Actually the "right thing to do" when Ireland became "a case study" (witchcraft-economists manage to be a joke pretty often) would be to kick it out of the common market. In a common market, such as EU, everybody has to play by the same note, otherwise such market starts to get eaten from inside with internal concurrence.
For the "very qualified" and "very capable" that's little more than part of the statistical scam... one coming down lately as most of the "high educated" Europeans starts to get jobless. The scam was meant to keep people studying for as long as possible, as a student doesn't count as an unemployed displaying a "fictional great result" on employment rate, but such scam has a low time span, ending up uncovered after 1 or 2 decades as all it can do is to delay one generation to enter in the labor market. And to make it worse any factory can work with 100 workers and 1 engineer, but no factory works with 100 engineers and 1 worker. It creates a weird twist in the market, making less qualified jobs to be more valuable than high qualified ones.
Yet being English-speakers aided them out to attract US investors, to that extent I agree.

Also Ireland didn't bail out the banking, ECB did. Obviously by also closing the Irish "offshore"... at medium term it may be bad, taken Ireland was overliving and now competing side-to-side with UK with the same rules and rates it doesn't quite stand a chance but to lower it's lifestyle.

Iceland is finding most of its relief into returning to basic economy, such as fishing. Holidays are over, the subprime proved why it was credit-risk and now it's time to work again. Figures...

[Axel]

Definitely , Irish people would not like the burden of more tax . They are absolutely doing right and in their favor. I hope that government will accept the demands of people because it do not want the uncertain political situation like Libya, Tunis, Egypt  as well .

[Mahkul]

I am in Ireland; as a matter of fact we had the government election yesterday and the party responsible for the mess (Fianna Fáil) has been totally knocked down (their support went down from 68% to 19%). Hopefully the new one will try and fix it.

It is partially true that it is the builders that are responsible for the economy crisis here, but it is mostly banks and the financial regulator, that allowed enormous loans to be taken by the building contractors. It happened, because they were either not thinking or taking bribes (or probably both). It is true that the common people are paying for the mistakes; an extra tax was introduced here two years ago (called levy - 2%); and this year they changed it to something that's called USC (Universal Social Charge) - which varies, but is a little bit similar to levy, depending on how much you earn.

I am doing my best to promote Bitcoin in Ireland, but there hasn't been much interest in it so far (I am actually surprised that the article about Bitcoin showed up in the Irish Times). If you look at the bitcoin users map there are only few IPs in Ireland. If any Irish person is reading this please give me a shout.