Bitcoin + Boinc - A truly revolution?

[paladini]

Bitcoin - Economic Revolution
I thought create this post a lot of time ago, but just now I have courage to really post it.

Please, read full text, you will not regret. Everyone knows we're really making a economic revolution. I must say, I'm left-wing (for many reasons, like I don't like see people starving while another minoritary people are swimming in golden pools), but I really trust that we're going to a great revolution, and any revolution is valid. Maybe in future, with Bitcoin, we can solve a lot of social problems of our world. Now we're going to where I want...

Use mining power to solve real problems

According Ripple website, "it is estimated that bitcoin is using approximately 23,312 megawatt hours per day (see electric consumption at blockchain.info/stats) of electric for block solving algorithms". Another important information is that bitcoin is the most powerful supercomputer in the world (this topic).

I was wondering, why we don't use this computacional power to solve real problems in our planet? If we use this power to process data for projects like Folding@home and Boinc, this way we are helping scientists and directly, the world, studying diseases, mathematical, physical theorems, searching for extraterrestrial life, find solutions to problems not solvable today and MUCH more. Why no one asks about it? Why can't we create two of the greatest revolutions the world has ever seen, and at same time?

A little more real.

I want know, why Bitcoin community don't talk about that? We really can change the world, for ever. We're doing the hardest thing, we're creating a decentralized currency that is being used by a lot of people / stores. We just need adapt what we have to solve real problems, with the power we're using to mine Bitcoin. The spent time studying and implementing this adaptation don't worth?

I want know, what's the real problem about implement it? It need be implemented in Bitcoin core or just in the mining softwares? It's possible integrate Bitcoin with Boinc / Folding@Home projects? If not, why we don't create our own project, based on Bitcoin limitations? It is not worth enough for you to at least be studied thoroughly?

Am I going crazy or are we putting our electricity in the trash while hundred thousands people die?

Already see (discarded):

• Ripple Coin - This site tell that this is a scam (centralized currency)
• "Bitcoin vs boinc discussion" - In my opinion, this topic don't is a good quality topic. And no one give this topic the deserved attention.
• Gridcoin - A friend told me read something about this currency be another scam (someone can confirm?)

[Meuh6879]

why we don't use this computacional power to solve real problems in our planet?

well, economy ... is a problem for people (but not for banks and government).
so ... solve economy "problem" is more easy in time. 

retrieve all money to a complet vault controled by nothing except "people".

[cr1776]

This has been discussed numerous times.

See eg

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=197000.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=193084.0

:-)

Searching using SETI or folding or ... Shows a ton more.

[Rannasha]

The problem of combining useful computation with a proof-of-work blockchain is far from trivial.

The idea behind the proof-of-work done by Bitcoin (and its array of clones) is that the computational problem that miners try to solve and its solution depend on the transactions in the block (among other things). It is precisely this property that makes transactions included in mined blocks almost impossible to reverse, as different block-contents mean that the proof-of-work has to be redone.

Projects like BOINC deliver units of work to its users with specifics of what has to be computed. The computer then performs the calculations and returns them to BOINC. No matter exactly what is being calculated, it is predetermined by a centralized organization and not dependent on unpredictable data such as transactions.

The solution of a proof-of-work should be hard to find, but easy to verify. Each node that receives a block should be able to verify its correctness with relatively small effort. Hashing works well for this, because a verification of the hash takes only a single computation of the hash-function, which is very fast. A BOINC project could consist of running a relatively slow simulation of a, say, a molecule, rather than a brute-forcing calculation like hash-function proof-of-work. This means that if a BOINC-related computation would be used as proof-of-work, the solution may not be quickly verifiable by other nodes, which would make block propagation very slow.

Finally, the difficulty of the computation needs to be adjustable based on network hashrate. With hashing, the approach is obvious, but how do you apply variable difficulty to an arbitrary computation?

GridCoin is hailed as a "useful" coin because it's coupled with BOINC. Sadly, the integration isn't as advanced as one might think. GridCoin is, in essence, just another Scrypt-coin that uses the regular proof-of-work hashing to secure its blockchain. What makes it different is that the block reward is higher if BOINC is running during the mining process. This doesn't make GridCoin much better than mining any other Scrypt-coin and leaving BOINC running. Scrypt-mining uses the GPU, leaving the CPU free for BOINC computations. If you mine GridCoin for maximum profits, you use both your GPU and CPU.

Typical distributed computing projects require a central organization to collect and verify contributions to prevent cheating. It's possible for such an organization to reward its users with some form of crypto-currency, but this currency would still need it's own miners to secure its blockchain. There may be a way to seemlessly integrate useful computations into a proof-of-work scheme, but as I said at the start of this post: It's far from trivial.

[paladini]

why we don't use this computacional power to solve real problems in our planet?

well, economy ... is a problem for people (but not for banks and government).
so ... solve economy "problem" is more easy in time. 

retrieve all money to a complet vault controled by nothing except "people".

Yes, I understand your point of view and believe that too. But we are wasting time, energy and money while we don't adapt cryptocurrencies to do this data processing.

This has been discussed numerous times.

See eg

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=197000.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=193084.0

:-)

Searching using SETI or folding or ... Shows a ton more.

Thanks for your comment and links! (:

But I'm nothing talk about new currencies, I'm talking about adapt Bitcoin for this tasks - how this can be done and why this wasn't done yet is my main question. It was already discussed numerous times, but I didn't find any results. In a practical way, nothing was done.

Later I will search again for 'folding@home' and 'boinc', thanks.

P.S:
ScienceCoin appears to be deactived, no new update/commit to Github in 8 months.
I don't understand this topic about Curecoin. I'm a programmer, if I can't understand the topic (don't find any useful information in this topic), how we can expect "normal" people will understand this currency project? They also don't have a good home page explaining the project, just a ugly forums where I didn't find any useful information about what is this project.

The question and discussions persist, can Bitcoin be adapted to this new 'design / philosophy'?

[allgoodthings1]

There's really no conflict here. Let the miners mine away; that requires special, dedicated hardware, anyway. And let EVERYONE run BOINC humanitarian tasks on all their PCs, too. Projects like World Community Grid (worldcommunitygrid.org). BOINC runs unobtrusively in the background, 24/7.

[Carlton Banks]

Bitcoin mining is solving a real problem. If you've not worked out what that is, start at bitcoin 101, page 1.

[Sukrim]

computingforgood.org already does this (it is a distribution mechanism for XRP, where you apparently found TradeFortress' "description" of it) and there are 2 altcoin projects that also try something like that.

The power consumption estimate is likely far off, as nowadays BTC are probably mined with ASICs almost exclusively (even large botnets do not make much sense any more for SHA256 coins). BOINC also is a generic infrastructure project and does not equal "meaningful work" in any way.

[traderman]

The mining subsidy for Gridcoin is calculated in a different way now. %50 is coming from the cpu utilization and the other %50 is coming from the average daily credits.

Gridcoin is NOT just another scrypt coin!!!!

People usually start using Boinc and then they forget about it or loose interest. If there is a financial incentive people will be a lot more willing to continue using it. That is why Gridcoin is not just another scrypt coin. Go and get the client and see how much work has been put into this coin.

The problem of combining useful computation with a proof-of-work blockchain is far from trivial.

The idea behind the proof-of-work done by Bitcoin (and its array of clones) is that the computational problem that miners try to solve and its solution depend on the transactions in the block (among other things). It is precisely this property that makes transactions included in mined blocks almost impossible to reverse, as different block-contents mean that the proof-of-work has to be redone.

Projects like BOINC deliver units of work to its users with specifics of what has to be computed. The computer then performs the calculations and returns them to BOINC. No matter exactly what is being calculated, it is predetermined by a centralized organization and not dependent on unpredictable data such as transactions.

The solution of a proof-of-work should be hard to find, but easy to verify. Each node that receives a block should be able to verify its correctness with relatively small effort. Hashing works well for this, because a verification of the hash takes only a single computation of the hash-function, which is very fast. A BOINC project could consist of running a relatively slow simulation of a, say, a molecule, rather than a brute-forcing calculation like hash-function proof-of-work. This means that if a BOINC-related computation would be used as proof-of-work, the solution may not be quickly verifiable by other nodes, which would make block propagation very slow.

Finally, the difficulty of the computation needs to be adjustable based on network hashrate. With hashing, the approach is obvious, but how do you apply variable difficulty to an arbitrary computation?

GridCoin is hailed as a "useful" coin because it's coupled with BOINC. Sadly, the integration isn't as advanced as one might think. GridCoin is, in essence, just another Scrypt-coin that uses the regular proof-of-work hashing to secure its blockchain. What makes it different is that the block reward is higher if BOINC is running during the mining process. This doesn't make GridCoin much better than mining any other Scrypt-coin and leaving BOINC running. Scrypt-mining uses the GPU, leaving the CPU free for BOINC computations. If you mine GridCoin for maximum profits, you use both your GPU and CPU.

Typical distributed computing projects require a central organization to collect and verify contributions to prevent cheating. It's possible for such an organization to reward its users with some form of crypto-currency, but this currency would still need it's own miners to secure its blockchain. There may be a way to seemlessly integrate useful computations into a proof-of-work scheme, but as I said at the start of this post: It's far from trivial.

[BittBurger]

Even if this has been discussed many times, I couldn't agree with the sentiment more.

The insane amounts of computing power being developed could be put towards curing cancer, and AIDS, and other folding@home projects.

Obviously saying "BOINC runs in the background" is pointless, because the point of this thread is dedicating 100% of the computing power to BOINC.  Not idle time background power.

If you want to get rich, find a way to take the obsolete mining equipment and put it to use with BOINC. 

There must be some way.  Even if its just providing a service that collects / buys mining rigs from people, so they don't get split up, sold on ebay, or tossed in the trash.

Bitcoin is going to fuel computing power innovation like we've never seen in the history of computing. 

I realize mining technology doesn't equal BOINC technology ... but what a waste if we can't harness the old hardware for BOINC.

[Bigeyeone]

Gridcoin is a good initiative https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=324118.0

However I think it just too complicated right now, you have to be mining their scrybt coin and then at the same time you have to run the BOINC client and then the block reward is dependent on your BOINC client utilization.

They should just build the gridcoin mining into the BOINC client period, that way everyone that participates in the world community grid network gets rewarded with gridcoins

[traderman]

Either you build boinc into the gridcoin client or gridcoin into boinc client, it is the same thing really. The whole point is to insensitivity people to run Boinc. And so far Gridcoin is doing a great job I think.

Gridcoin is a good initiative https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=324118.0

However I think it just too complicated right now, you have to be mining their scrybt coin and then at the same time you have to run the BOINC client and then the block reward is dependent on your BOINC client utilization.

They should just build the gridcoin mining into the BOINC client period, that way everyone that participates in the world community grid network gets rewarded with gridcoins

[traderman]

Boinc has been around a long time, and guess what? Outside of the science and technical people, most of the population doesn't know about it or doesn't care enough.

Dedicating 100 percrent to Boinc is just no going to happen.

Even the people that start out with Boinc eventually either get bored or forget and they stop running it.

I hate to say it, but these days greed rules and you need to give people a pretty powerful incentive to get things done, otherwise it just doesn't work.

Even if this has been discussed many times, I couldn't agree with the sentiment more.

The insane amounts of computing power being developed could be put towards curing cancer, and AIDS, and other folding@home projects.

Obviously saying "BOINC runs in the background" is pointless, because the point of this thread is dedicating 100% of the computing power to BOINC.  Not idle time background power.

If you want to get rich, find a way to take the obsolete mining equipment and put it to use with BOINC.  

There must be some way.  Even if its just providing a service that collects / buys mining rigs from people, so they don't get split up, sold on ebay, or tossed in the trash.

Bitcoin is going to fuel computing power innovation like we've never seen in the history of computing.  

I realize mining technology doesn't equal BOINC technology ... but what a waste if we can't harness the old hardware for BOINC.

[doof]

Sunnys whitepaper on prime coin explains why projects like folding @ home can't be used as the proof of work protocol.

[Rannasha]

The mining subsidy for Gridcoin is calculated in a different way now. %50 is coming from the cpu utilization and the other %50 is coming from the average daily credits.

Gridcoin is NOT just another scrypt coin!!!!

People usually start using Boinc and then they forget about it or loose interest. If there is a financial incentive people will be a lot more willing to continue using it. That is why Gridcoin is not just another scrypt coin. Go and get the client and see how much work has been put into this coin.

[...]

That is exactly what I said... GridCoin pays out a larger block reward to miners that run BOINC software while mining. Okay, nice. But that doesn't change the fact that BOINC is in no way integrated into the operation of the coin. You're essentially renting out computing power while simultaneously mining. The power consumption of GridCoin mining with BOINC will be higher than the power consumption of just mining a coin or just running BOINC. No progress was made towards making the Proof-of-Work function contribute results that are meaningful outside securing the blockchain.

[traderman]

Yes it does. Some people who want to only run boinc with their cpu will be given gridcoin too. That is the how the integrated pool mining in Gridcoin works.
Also there is a new sleep algo that will be implemented that will throttle mining and donating resources with Gpu to Boinc. That will change the game completely.

The mining subsidy for Gridcoin is calculated in a different way now. %50 is coming from the cpu utilization and the other %50 is coming from the average daily credits.

Gridcoin is NOT just another scrypt coin!!!!

People usually start using Boinc and then they forget about it or loose interest. If there is a financial incentive people will be a lot more willing to continue using it. That is why Gridcoin is not just another scrypt coin. Go and get the client and see how much work has been put into this coin.

[...]

That is exactly what I said... GridCoin pays out a larger block reward to miners that run BOINC software while mining. Okay, nice. But that doesn't change the fact that BOINC is in no way integrated into the operation of the coin. You're essentially renting out computing power while simultaneously mining. The power consumption of GridCoin mining with BOINC will be higher than the power consumption of just mining a coin or just running BOINC. No progress was made towards making the Proof-of-Work function contribute results that are meaningful outside securing the blockchain.

[ElectricMucus]

Sunnys whitepaper on prime coin explains why projects like folding @ home can't be used as the proof of work protocol.

You can do proof of work on the results and use them as a currency.

[Jochen]

I already use BOINC for ripple, and it runs well.
http://www.bitcoinutopia.com/index_boinc.php ?

[Gridcoin]

The mining subsidy for Gridcoin is calculated in a different way now. %50 is coming from the cpu utilization and the other %50 is coming from the average daily credits.
Gridcoin is NOT just another scrypt coin!!!!
People usually start using Boinc and then they forget about it or loose interest. If there is a financial incentive people will be a lot more willing to continue using it. That is why Gridcoin is not just another scrypt coin. Go and get the client and see how much work has been put into this coin.

[...]

That is exactly what I said... GridCoin pays out a larger block reward to miners that run BOINC software while mining. Okay, nice. But that doesn't change the fact that BOINC is in no way integrated into the operation of the coin. You're essentially renting out computing power while simultaneously mining. The power consumption of GridCoin mining with BOINC will be higher than the power consumption of just mining a coin or just running BOINC. No progress was made towards making the Proof-of-Work function contribute results that are meaningful outside securing the blockchain.

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for the interest in Gridcoin!

I wanted to start off by saying in the 2nd paragraph on Page 1: "it is estimated that bitcoin is using approximately 23,312 megawatt hours per day (see electric consumption at blockchain.info/stats) of electric for block solving algorithms..":  the author claims this is from the Ripple web site.  It's not:  I wrote that and it's actually from the Gridcoin web site.


2) Ranasha says Boincs tasks cannot be used for a PoW:  Incorrect.  There are 60 official boinc projects that have an underlying work unit called cobblestones.  We are already 50% Boinc PoW, and these PoW units are verified by 3rd party GPU users using one of the 60 official boinc APIs.   I invite you to see how much our userbase and process has changed.


3) Sunny King's whitepaper claims you cannot use PoW for F@H -- Correct, if its not done correctly, you cant; however a lot of people believe new things are impossible resisting change; that does not make things impossible.  There will be new specs, new protocols and new whitepapers that prove people will have to change opinions eventually.  It IS possible to have for example an SQL p2p ledger that settles new blocks and stores information other than transactions (generic data) that can be used itself as a PoW; while storing useful information; for example our SQL server and our cpu mining project.  Ripple itself is an example of a non-scrypt based ledger with no classic PoW (sha or scrypt) that uses a similar technology but without the SQL row hash and is proving to be secure.

4) Gridcoin will pay boinc users rewards that are based on their boinc avg_daily_credits and those will be verified by other 3rd party gpu users; there will be no question these users are earning exactly those boinc credits by helping humanity advance.  We will also pioneer the crypto frontier by adding SQL to Gridcoin with an integrated additional SQL PoW for generic data.

Best Regards,
Grid

[BigJohn]

Gridcoin, what you're saying sounds like it's a bit centralized, isn't it? If you need a central SQL database to keep track of things, then there has to be an entity in charge of it right?

I've also never heard a solution to the problem of people mining random problems, and then just waiting for one of the solutions to become relevant. Is there a way around that now?

With hashes you can't tell what hash is going to be next. So it's pointless to try and premine the next block. This is how I understand it anyway.