Religions and business

[Bimmerhead]

Why play chess if in the end the pieces return to original position? 
It does change, slowly, but does. At least lately we don't have people being burning in the plazas for heresy.

Well in Canada they don't burn them physcially for heresy, but the liberals have something called the CHRC with which they burn Christians financially for heresy for violating secular orthodoxy.  You should check it out, quite scary.  So I'm not sure how you think we have 'advanced'. 

[BitterTea]

Well in Canada they don't burn them physcially for heresy, but the liberals have something called the CHRC with which they burn Christians financially for heresy for violating secular orthodoxy.  You should check it out, quite scary.

Oh! You poor Christians are so oppressed!

"The 2001 Canadian census reported that 77% of Canadians claim adherence to Christianity, followed by no religion at 16%."

So I'm not sure how you think we have 'advanced'.

This is how: [1]

"With Christianity having once been central and integral to Canadian culture and daily life, it has been recently suggested that Canada has come to enter a post-Christian or secular state, where practice of the religion has "moved to the margins of public life", and irreligion is on the rise."

But more in general, this is an excellent video:

http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Canada

[Bimmerhead]

So are you arguing Canada is Christian or post-Christian?

If you are saying the establishment (CHRC and their minions) is more post-Christian than the populace, we are in agreement. 

[BCEmporium]

Well in Canada they don't burn them physcially for heresy, but the liberals have something called the CHRC with which they burn Christians financially for heresy for violating secular orthodoxy.  You should check it out, quite scary.  So I'm not sure how you think we have 'advanced'. 

If you mean Canadian Human-Rights Commission may put one "out of commission" to practice "group-oriented and restricted goodness" I don't see what's the problem with it.
You see, unlike the monolithic view of religions and their primal state and condition, the intentions of secularism doesn't go on make it more acceptable that you hire, taken an example on employment, atheists or agnostics instead of Christians, Muslims or Hindus.
The statement about secularism and proper lay states is that religion isn't up to account on such matters (which is then considered exogenous), therefore you are meant to seek and hire people by their qualification to the job you're offering. Unless you are looking for a priest of some religion, whether your employee is Muslim, Christian or neither has nothing to do to his job.
On the other hand, for this to work out, the employee himself must abide by the same sense. You could refuse to employ a Muslim because he wants 5-pray breaks each day and you'll not see him one whole month during Ramadan. But in this subject is the Muslims himself who's make religion a part of his job and hereby makes it endogenous to the function.
Also wouldn't make much sense in a accountant job to have to pray for Jesus... probably a boss could come up with this sort of idea, but his costumers would have the creeps to be interrupted for a some sort of medieval ritual to be performed.

But in the end you can't blame secularism to force people to non-religion, because all it does is to prevent religions to be the center of social life, as they were by the times referred on the video posted by BitterTea.

[Bimmerhead]

http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

So he argues one possible reason for the decline in violence is because of the rise of leviathan.  Is this what you are advocating?

Interesting that he points out a significant decline in the number of pogroms in Europe after WWII.  Gee, I wonder why that was?

Of course in measuring the decline of violence it helps to have a very narrow definition of violence.  For example, by excluding over 1 million abortions/year in the US alone is an interesting approach.  Whether you are pro or anti abortion, there is no doubt that 'violence' is taking place during an abortion (lesbian libertarian feminist Camille Paglia has an honest view of what an abortion is, articulated here.

Really though to deny the positive impact of true Christianity on raising the status of women, children, immigrants, the poor and others from the time of Rome to the present day displays a significant ignorance of history.  Also, Pinker should investigate Elliott Wave theory before declaring the death of violence in society.

[genjix]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IH4iLhhL7k&t=6m30s
And part2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN_A_NIDjM0 (until 2 mins in)

This puts it all in perspective for me.

[BCEmporium]

Bimmerhead,

Don't make or take for assumption that atheists and agnostics are a sort of "organized mono-thinking" religion. They aren't! There's "one rule", but a enormous set of arguments and counter-arguments in the seek of the best outcome. What we'd been doing so far as humanity, in case you hadn't notice, is an endless "try and fail" chain of events. We try what we may think to be best, but we just happen to know the outcome after a while, and if it ends up to be for the worse we have to change what went wrong and try again.
Speaking for myself I see abortion a plain murdering and punishable as such. Specially late-time abortion.

[Bimmerhead]

Bimmerhead,

Don't make or take for assumption that atheists and agnostics are a sort of "organized mono-thinking" religion.

Then surely you have considered that there is a difference between people who claim to be Christians, and the actual teachings of the Bible?

Speaking for myself I see abortion a plain murdering and punishable as such. Specially late-time abortion.

That is refreshing.  And pretty rare amongst atheists, I would guess.  Congrats on standing outside the mainstream on this issue.

[BCEmporium]

Then surely you have considered that there is a difference between people who claim to be Christians, and the actual teachings of the Bible?

Thanks... God for that one!
Ever saw the Old Testament?! That's probably the worse more horrific manual of torture created by man!
As for JC, I can't see nothing "that bad" on it, thus I would like to know which drug was the guy who wrote Apocalypse on, but I see him as philosopher for simple life things. He also didn't went by regulating markets or loans and alike (unlike Islam, which is a typical "Mercantile Religion").

That is refreshing.  And pretty rare amongst atheists, I would guess.  Congrats on standing outside the mainstream on this issue.

Not quite, not being a group we've no "group statements". I found most of the pro-abortion arguments to be fallacious, because they're based on things that are no more. Most of them would just make sense if we were still on Middle Ages and by fallacy the only thing they end up to support is irresponsibility and at expenses of another human life.

[BitterTea]

So he argues one possible reason for the decline in violence is because of the rise of leviathan.  Is this what you are advocating?

I'll have to watch that again, I must have missed that quote. Does he actually say "leviathan"? What does that mean to you?

Interesting that he points out a significant decline in the number of pogroms in Europe after WWII.  Gee, I wonder why that was?

Care to enlighten the rest of us?

there is no doubt that 'violence' is taking place during an abortion

Yes, there is in fact doubt. Up until the point that a fetus can survive outside of the mother's body, it is essentially a parasite. Once the fetus is externally viable, any "abortion" procedure should be limited to removing the fetus from the mother's body, not intentionally killing it. Until that point, I consider the mother's rights to outweigh those of the fetus.

Really though to deny the positive impact of true Christianity on raising the status of women, children, immigrants, the poor and others from the time of Rome to the present day displays a significant ignorance of history.

Please. Without Christianity we would be at least a few hundred years more technologically advanced. Thanks for the dark ages, bro. Science has brought humanity out from the grip of religion.

Then surely you have considered that there is a difference between people who claim to be Christians, and the actual teachings of the Bible?

There is no such thing as a true Christian. Everyone interprets the bible differently. You are just as Christian as those in Africa who burn children as witches, and no more.

I once again point out to you that the bible is full of examples of behavior that is completely unacceptable by today's standards. I'm sure you agree that these things are horrible, yet you claim to derive your morality from this "holy" book. How can you not see the ridiculous nature of that assertion? You derive your morality from yourself, and using that tool you pick and choose which parts of the bible are good, and those that are not.

[Bimmerhead]

Interesting that he points out a significant decline in the number of pogroms in Europe after WWII.  Gee, I wonder why that was?

Care to enlighten the rest of us?

Because the Europeans had just murdered 6 million Jews.  No one was left to pogrom.

[BCEmporium]

Interesting that he points out a significant decline in the number of pogroms in Europe after WWII.  Gee, I wonder why that was?

Care to enlighten the rest of us?

Because the Europeans had just murdered 6 million Jews.  No one was left to pogrom.

There's ALWAYS people to pogrom, if not Jews, Muslims, Hindus, «put your religion here» and so on...
The question lies if the society is or wants to be violent or not.

[fornit]

Of course in measuring the decline of violence it helps to have a very narrow definition of violence.  For example, by excluding over 1 million abortions/year in the US alone is an interesting approach.  Whether you are pro or anti abortion, there is no doubt that 'violence' is taking place during an abortion (lesbian libertarian feminist Camille Paglia has an honest view of what an abortion is, articulated here.

there is also violence taking place during kidney transplantations. so what?

Really though to deny the positive impact of true Christianity on raising the status of women, children, immigrants, the poor and others from the time of Rome to the present day displays a significant ignorance of history. 

yeah, thanks for the no true scotsman.