How and why to hold bitcoins in your Roth IRA (yes, you can do it today!)

[skivrmt]

Somebody in the bitcoin community needs to set up an IRA custodian specializing in cryptocurrency that doesn't charge an arm and a leg.  Is anybody out there listening?

Those three I mentioned above all do a lot of alternatives in IRA's.  There's a reason they charge what they charge, there's a lot of risk to them holding these securities as trustee of your IRA/Roth.  Plus, in the scheme of things they really aren't make -that- much money.  I think PENSCO charges $100/yr plus some small asset based charge.  They aren't going to make commission or a management fee of of you in that IRA so that's their only fees.  It's expensive for $5,500 account, not so much for a $100k account.

[1714153811]

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[1714153811]

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[calian]

I have about 10% of my net worth in bitcoins, and my goal is to keep it about the same. 

If it lives up to its potential, you don't need to own huge numbers of bitcoins to be set for life.

While that's true, if you continually sell down your holdings to stay at 10% you'll never end up with a significant holding. Probably better to go with the SSS plan if you don't just plan to hold for the longest time. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345065.0

[BitchicksHusband]

Aren't long term capital gains (meaning the assets are held for at least a year) taxed at 20%?
Could be a lot of work/limitations to save the 20%....
But it is an interesting idea.

It depends on your tax bracket.  Check the brackets above.  This is why I plan on retiring when bitcoin gets high enough because I get the same amount of money without going to work.

[skivrmt]

I have about 10% of my net worth in bitcoins, and my goal is to keep it about the same. 

If it lives up to its potential, you don't need to own huge numbers of bitcoins to be set for life.

While that's true, if you continually sell down your holdings to stay at 10% you'll never end up with a significant holding. Probably better to go with the SSS plan if you don't just plan to hold for the longest time. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345065.0

Be he's actually doing the proper asset allocation strategy, never hold all your eggs in one basket.  I'd bet most people on these forums are "all-in" or really close to all in on Bitcoins.  And that's fine.  It's gambling, but it's fine.  Most people suggest never have more than 5% in any given stock, bond, commodity etc.  While he is limiting is upside, he is also greatly limiting his downside.

[jzcjca00]

A lot of custodians will let you open up an IRA or Roth and hold alternative assets, gold and real estate are the two most popular but bitcoins are usually allowed.  Check with PENSCO, Entrust, & Equity Institutional as starters.   One or more of them should be able to do this for you.

This can be done.  I hold most of my bitcoins in an IRA.  I did it from rollover from a 401k account.

Do you control the private keys?

The government requires the "IRA custodian" to hold the assets.

If you find a custodian who will hold bitcoins for you, they would have the private keys.  I'm not sure there are any custodians currently willing to do that, and it makes me uncomfortable, anyway.

PENSCO, Entrust, & Equity Institutional have agreed to hold shares of the SecondMarket Bitcoin Investment Trust in IRA accounts, but I believe you must be an accredited investor, with net worth over a million dollars.  That makes it unreachable for most bitcoiners.

I'm suggesting a third option.  You need an IRA custodian (like IRA Services Trust Company) who is willing to hold your funds in the form of 100% ownership of an IRA LLC.  This IRA LLC is a company which you manage yourself, and it holds assets for you.  In the case of bitcoin, as the manager of the IRA LLC, you hold the private keys.  It is your responsibility to keep them safe and secure.

The IRA LLC does not require you to be a high net worth investor.  It does not require you to let someone else hold your private keys.  You are not limited to bitcoins.  You could also hold gold and silver.  Again, you would be responsible for keeping them safe.  Your IRA LLC can also hold real estate and thousands of other things.  As the manager of the LLC, it is your job to follow all the laws about IRA investments.

There is an important difference between you owning the bitcoins outright, and you managing a company that owns the bitcoins.  In both cases, you control them, but when they belong to the IRA LLC, you are not legally allowed to use them for your own personal benefit.  If you want to use those bitcoins to buy a new house or car or whatever for your own personal use, the laws require you to do a withdrawal through the IRA custodian first.

I am not a financial advisor.  Seek the advice of a qualified financial advisor, preferably one who knows something about bitcoins and IRA LLCs, before making any investment decisions.  

[bitpop]

I think there's a conflict of interest in you having access to the private keys where you can use funds and replace them without anyone noticing.

[URSAY]

Custodians legally have to work within a traditional organization that is approved by the IRS?

Edit:

Looks like the answer is partially yes...?

http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans/Approved-Nonbank-Trustees-and-Custodians

[bitpop]

Anyway, this proves early adopters should be rewarded. Some people have liquidated savings and retirement. High risk, high reward.

Damn I wish my vanguard ira supported it today before it's too late.

[skivrmt]

Custodians legally have to work within a traditional organization that is approved by the IRS?

Yes.  Custodians are highly regulated usually by the federal government in some fashion, SEC, FINRA, etc.  Banks, financial companies, etc.

[jzcjca00]

Damn I wish my vanguard ira supported it today before it's too late.

The point of the OP is that you CAN do it today.  You do not need to wait for Vanguard, Fidelity, or anyone else to support it.  It just takes a modest effort and expense to set it up.

[skivrmt]

Damn I wish my vanguard ira supported it today before it's too late.

The point of the OP is that you CAN do it today.  You do not need to wait for Vanguard, Fidelity, or anyone else to support it.  It just takes a modest effort and expense to set it up.

I agree. I don't think Vanguard will ever support this, not really in their mantra.  Fidelity did support buying the BIT for a little while but then decided against it.  Very few firms around the country, including the bigger boys like Morgan Stanley, Merrill Lynch, etc, will take the risk of holding alternative securities in an IRA.  Like jz says, you can do it today, it just takes some legwork!

[Keyser Soze]

A lot of custodians will let you open up an IRA or Roth and hold alternative assets, gold and real estate are the two most popular but bitcoins are usually allowed.  Check with PENSCO, Entrust, & Equity Institutional as starters.   One or more of them should be able to do this for you.

This can be done.  I hold most of my bitcoins in an IRA.  I did it from rollover from a 401k account.

Am I correct to assume (in your case) they are custodian of the BIT and not actual bitcoins?

[URSAY]

Damn I wish my vanguard ira supported it today before it's too late.

The point of the OP is that you CAN do it today.  You do not need to wait for Vanguard, Fidelity, or anyone else to support it.  It just takes a modest effort and expense to set it up.

If there was a way to do it today then why hasn't anyone shared further details?  I've put in more then a modest effort and I have not found how this would be done thru most traditional institutions.

[skivrmt]

Damn I wish my vanguard ira supported it today before it's too late.

The point of the OP is that you CAN do it today.  You do not need to wait for Vanguard, Fidelity, or anyone else to support it.  It just takes a modest effort and expense to set it up.

If there was a way to do it today then why hasn't anyone shared further details?  I've put in more then a modest effort and I have not found how this would be done thru most traditional institutions.

What details would you like?  The OP pretty much explained exactly what you need to do step by step.  Its not easy, buts not overly difficult either with the right people involved.  I googled IRA LLC and these guys popped up:

http://www.broadfinancial.com/self-directed-ira/ira-llc

I don't know anything about them nor am I affiliated with them but they specialized in alternative IRA holdings.  I use PENSCO personally.

Good luck!

[URSAY]

So you need to trust an unheard of financial institution who has crappy website design with your private keys?   

[jzcjca00]

So you need to trust an unheard of financial institution who has crappy website design with your private keys?   

No, absolutely not.  Go back and read this entire thread more carefully.  Then, if you don't understand something, ask me for clarification.  Don't just assume the worst.

This is not trivial to do, but a company like Broad Financial does the hard part, like creating the Operating Agreement for the LLC, etc.  Nevertheless, it will still take many hours of research and effort on your part.  (Reading this thread carefully can save many hours of research.) You have to decide whether the potential tax savings is worth the effort.

There are several different companies that can help you set up the IRA LLC.  If you don't like Broad Financial's website, pick another company.  However, they have given me great service.

Here's what they will do for you:
-- Help you open a Roth (or other kind of) IRA with IRA Services Trust Company as the custodian.
-- Help you fund that Roth IRA through a transfer, rollover, or contribution.
-- Help you create an IRA LLC in your state, including creating appropriate Articles of Organization, Operating Agreement, or whatever is needed in your state.
-- Help you get a federal EIN for the IRA LLC.
-- Help you set up the investment in your IRA LLC from your Roth IRA.

The IRA rules require the IRA custodian to hold the assets in your IRA, so they are the sole owner of your IRA LLC.  That ownership is the ONLY thing they hold.

You are the manager of the IRA LLC.  You control accounts at banks and exchanges, on behalf of the IRA LLC.  You buy and sell bitcoins on behalf of the IRA LLC.  You are solely responsible for securing the assets of the IRA LLC.  You set up cold storage and guard the private keys, on behalf of the IRA LLC.

Imagine if you were the CEO of Microsoft.  You control many assets, but you own none of them.  This is the same thing.  You are managing and securing assets that do not directly belong to you.

You will have the private keys, but you will NOT own the bitcoins.  The bitcoins will be owned by the IRA LLC, which is owned by IRA Services for the benefit of you.  If you want to cash out, you would have to sell the bitcoins on behalf of the IRA LLC, send the cash back to the IRA custodian, then request an IRA disbursement.  You have to follow the normal IRA disbursement rules or possibly face the normal IRA penalties and taxes.

This is not something for lazy people.  It's 1000 times more work than buying shares of an ETF.  You have to decide whether it's worth the expense and bother to save some money on taxes.

[jzcjca00]

Damn I wish my vanguard ira supported it today before it's too late.

The point of the OP is that you CAN do it today.  You do not need to wait for Vanguard, Fidelity, or anyone else to support it.  It just takes a modest effort and expense to set it up.

If there was a way to do it today then why hasn't anyone shared further details?  I've put in more then a modest effort and I have not found how this would be done thru most traditional institutions.

Perhaps those who have already done it are trying to keep it a secret.  Maybe they're afraid if too many people start doing it, the IRS will change the rules and disallow it.

I'm personally hoping that lots of libertarians will do it so that we can perhaps win some elections in the future and achieve liberty in our lifetime.

[jzcjca00]

Custodians legally have to work within a traditional organization that is approved by the IRS?

Yes.  Custodians are highly regulated usually by the federal government in some fashion, SEC, FINRA, etc.  Banks, financial companies, etc.

Just remember that n this case, the only asset the IRA custodian holds is 100% ownership of the IRA LLC.  They do not hold the bitcoins for you.  They don't have to know diddly squat about bitcoins.

[dissident]

Why would I want bitcoins in my IRA? Assuming I ever make a huge "profit" from them I have no intention of paying any capital gains tax on any perceived 'gain' .. I will merely spend them into goods purchased such as bullion... the base purchase price for the bullion then becomes my new "cost basis" if you will. How will they ever know? I wish I had that problem... alas I don't.

[skivrmt]

Why would I want bitcoins in my IRA? Assuming I ever make a huge "profit" from them I have no intention of paying any capital gains tax on any perceived 'gain' .. I will merely spend them into goods purchased such as bullion... the base purchase price for the bullion then becomes my new "cost basis" if you will. How will they ever know? I wish I had that problem... alas I don't.

This is an important question.  How will they ever know?  Most likely, they won't.  A lot of people don't realize the US tax system is based on the honor system.  You report what you make, your deductions, your gains, losses, etc.  Everything is based on the honor system.  Right up until you get audited.   Then things change. 

Lets say you own 100 Bitcoins.  BTC goes to $10k/coin.  You now have $1MM.  Can you "hide" that from the IRS?  Most likely, especially since most exchanges aren't issuing tax documents for sells.  But is it worth it?  Let's say Bitcoin goes to $100k/coin.  Can you hide that amount and somehow not pay taxes on it?  Again, maybe, but it becomes increasingly difficult. 

If you buy BTC, sell it for a again, or "exchange" it for gold, technically that's is a sell, and that will generate capital gains, simply as that.