Bitcoin network is rejecting Bitcoin microtransactions

[darius2020]

"
Mining is a business, not a "challenge", and you don't "win" anything, you get paid for providing a service.
"

Nothing is mined in Bitcoin  technology.
Collector's item - Bitcoin - is minted by skilled craftsmen
and traded freely, purchased by other collectors.

You don't get paid for Bitcoin service
all you can do is to mint 25 Bitcoin today
and sell Bitcoin at Bitcoin exchange
or buy service, goods paying with Bitcoins, if accepted by the seller, trader.

Bitcoin minting is R&D challenge in maths, IT, quantum computing, 1Ph/s ASIC technology, cryptography

Read carefully -
no need for transaction fee

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
"
At the moment, many transactions are typically processed in a way where no fee is expected at all
"

[Peter882]

Read carefully -
no need for transaction fee

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
"
At the moment, many transactions are typically processed in a way where no fee is expected at all
"

You could always make no-fee tx, it will just take a longer time to be included in a block.


Just as Foxpup mentioned, if you are not happy with all the pools, you could run your own mining pool to accept micro-tx.
If people out there supports your idea, they would prefer your pool over the others and points their miners to your pool.

[BlockChainLottery]

You're hard to convince. You are citing the Bitcoin wiki, but that's just one sentence. It continues with

, but for transactions which draw coins from many bitcoin addresses and therefore have a large data size, a small transaction fee is usually expected.

Furthermore

Transaction fees are voluntary on the part of the person making the bitcoin transaction, as the person attempting to make a transaction can include any fee or none at all in the transaction. On the other hand, nobody mining new bitcoins necessarily needs to accept the transactions and include them in the new block being created. The transaction fee is therefore an incentive on the part of the bitcoin user to make sure that a particular transaction will get included into the next block which is generated.

So yes, mining exists in Bitcoin. Of course it's used as an analogy, but it has many parallels to actual mining. It takes time and energy, and you're not sure if you "mine" anything at all. So the 25 BTC is mined, and the transaction fee is a reward from the ones who want to make a transaction to keep the network secure and/or want to speed up the time that the transaction is included in one of the next blocks.

[darius2020]

thank you

"
you could run your own mining pool to accept micro-tx.
If people out there supports your idea, they would prefer your pool over the others and points their miners to your pool.
"

I am exactly interested to establish no-fee, zero-award  25 BTC  minting" pool, accepting micro, nano transactions, to let us trade in, collect, process, aggregate , donate "Bitcoin dust"
 
Can you guide me on how to start with  micro, nano transactions "minting" pool ?

[BlockChainLottery]

You can try that, but it's not gonna work. Nobody wants to mine without earning anything. And it only works if you manage to mine a block, which needs a large amount of hashing power.
It only works by dividing the 25BTC block reward among the miners working for your pool, considering fees are negligible at the moment.

[pontiacg5]

thank you

"
you could run your own mining pool to accept micro-tx.
If people out there supports your idea, they would prefer your pool over the others and points their miners to your pool.
"

I am exactly interested to establish no-fee, zero-award  25 BTC  minting" pool, accepting micro, nano transactions, to let us trade in, collect, process, aggregate , donate "Bitcoin dust"
 
Can you guide me on how to start with  micro, nano transactions "minting" pool ?

Start by getting enough hashing power to maintain at least a block a day. Right now, that's 60,000 gh/s. You'll need to increase the hashrate something in the area of 5-25% every two weeks.

There sure are a lot of people out there lined up ready and waiting to mine solely for the purpose of gathering dust 

[darius2020]

You can try that, but it's not gonna work.
===============================
 Nobody wants to mine without earning anything.
=====================================

Ok, "minting" pool, populated by thousands of of dust Bitcoin owners (skilled craftsmen),
interested to have their micro and nano Bitcoin transactions signed
can be self-supported and run on the same basis as any other mining pool

I can offer renewable energy solutions to power up computer facilities, ASIC, nano computing at zero-cost
so we can reduce are costs and share 25BTC among members.

Earning on share basis can work the same way as any pool mining.

email me if you are interested to have your dust, micro nano Bitcoin transactions supported
by a new micro transactions 25BTC "minting" pool made of skilled craftsmen 

Why do you suggest our skilled craftsmen should work for free, if awarded with 25BTC on every
block signed

[pontiacg5]

You can try that, but it's not gonna work.
===============================
 Nobody wants to mine without earning anything.
=====================================

Ok, "minting" pool, populated by thousands of of dust Bitcoin owners (skilled craftsmen),
interested to have their micro and nano Bitcoin transactions signed
can be self-supported and run on the same basis as any other mining pool

I can offer renewable energy solutions to power up computer facilities, ASIC, nano computing at zero-cost
so we can reduce are costs and share 25BTC among members.

Earning on share basis can work the same way as any pool mining.

email me if you are interested to have your dust, micro nano Bitcoin transactions supported
by a new micro transactions 25BTC "minting" pool made of skilled craftsmen  

Why do you suggest our skilled craftsmen should work for free, if awarded with 25BTC on every
block signed

Skilled craftsman that don't understand how ridiculous setting up a mining operation to save dust transactions are, or any of the fundamentals of bitcoin for that matter. People trying to move dust don't have the capital to own mining equipment. People with real mining equipment don't waste time jacking with $.005.

If you have dust, sit on it. Hopefully BTC goes up in value and what you hold is no longer worth $.005. Doing anything else with it right now is a righteous waste of time.

The transaction fee is there to keep tards such as yourself from choking bitcoin out with bogus worthless dust transactions. Only so many transactions can be processed so fast. It makes absolute sense to let people with no value at all in bitcoin control the network as if they had a stake in the project 

[BlockChainLottery]

Please, try to read my whole answer instead of pointing out one thing. For example:

Why do you suggest our skilled craftsmen should work for free, if awarded with 25BTC on every
block signed

I didn't suggest that. I said:

It only works by dividing the 25BTC block reward among the miners working for your pool, considering fees are negligible at the moment.

I think pontiacg5, Foxpup and I have made it very clear why we think your ideas and understanding isn't right. We're just trying to help you and give you our opinions. You are implying that Bitcoin is unfair regarding to dust payments, but that's implemented the way it is because of what pontiacg5 explains. And it is done that way because the core developers implemented it and the majority of miners think it is the best way.

To sum it all up, yes you can make a mining pool to accept dust payments. Good luck with that though.

[darius2020]

And it is done that way because the core developers implemented it

Exactly the case.
Core developers can implement support for micro and nano transactions any time
to let us donate Bitcoin dust to local and global foundations.

As with any p2p public project on the Internet, there is one man (VIP) behind the project,
who can suggest and enforce such nice solution to be implemented.

If you suggest public voting is required to implement Bitcoin microtransactions
so just let us vote.

[pontiacg5]

And it is done that way because the core developers implemented it

Exactly the case.
Core developers can implement support for micro and nano transactions any time
to let us donate Bitcoin dust to local and global foundations.

As with any p2p public project on the Internet, there is one man (VIP) behind the project,
who can suggest and enforce such nice solution to be implemented.

If you suggest public voting is required to implement Bitcoin microtransactions
so just let us vote.

There's already been a vote, and the bitcoin network agrees. What don't you understand about that? We DO NOT want dust transactions spamming the transaction backlog. People with real money need to be able to move bitcoins.

The bitcoin developers can't implement this change either, it has to be the miners. All the miners already decided that they don't want you or your dust transactions. No amount of crying in the world is going to change that.

You clearly don't understand bitcoin at all.

[darius2020]

There's already been a vote, and the bitcoin network agrees. What don't you understand about that? We DO NOT want dust transactions spamming the transaction backlog. People with real money need to be able to move bitcoins.

The bitcoin developers can't implement this change either, it has to be the miners. All the miners already decided that they don't want you or your dust transactions. No amount of crying in the world is going to change that.

You clearly don't understand bitcoin at all.

There's already been a vote, and the bitcoin network agrees

So if the bitcoin network agrees so where is the problem with microtransactions ?

We DO NOT want dust transactions spamming the transaction backlog.

Who is WE ?

Any Bitcoin transactions is legal transaction under Bitcoin standards.
If you claim Mr. Satoshi did something wrong or his idea has week points
just say so.

http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

The only official website endorsed by Mr. Satoshi is the above

Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System
Satoshi Nakamoto
satoshin@gmx.com
www.bitcoin.org

www.bitcoin.org

Can you see any ban on microtransactions in Bitcoin ?

Money is money and there is no dust money.

Under Proof-of-work, Merkle Tree algorithms implemented by Mr. Satoshi and nonce0, nonce1, nonce2
implemented by mining pools it takes the same amount of time to sign a block with one transaction
as with 1,000 or 1M transactions since Merkle Tree algorithm is very fast.

Microtransactions can generate just another Blockchain if you are afraid of so called "Bitcoin dust spamming"

But solution is not really complicated as exactly in case of no-reward, zero-fee transactions in general.
You can earn BTC 25 ... BTC 25.05 or nothing


There is no need to violate the genuine idea by Mr. Satoshi and claim Bitcoin transaction fees as charged by real banks in real worlds.

There is no need to punish those doing zero-fee, no-reward transactions since your reward is still granted by the system - BTC 25 as of today.

as Mr. Satoshi said :

A block header with no transactions would be about 80 bytes. If we suppose blocks are
generated every 10 minutes, 80 bytes * 6 * 24 * 365 = 4.2MB per year. With computer systems
typically selling with 2GB of RAM as of 2008, and Moore's Law predicting current growth of
1.2GB per year, storage should not be a problem even if the block headers must be kept in
memory.

There is no WE DO or WE DO NOT in Botcoin network since there only one man in charge of the Bitcoin network and his name is Mr. Satoshi.

Since Mr. Satoshi endorsed Bitcoin microtransactions there is no sense to claim otherwise.

One Blockchain for > 0.01 BTC transactions
and one Blockchain for  zero-fee  microtransactions < 0.01 BTC
can be established, maintained and supported by Bitcoin network.

There is nothing in the Articles of Incorporation of the Bitcoin to oppose the above.

If we, the poor people let Bitcoin transaction fees to keep growing on, so one day Bitcoin idea by Mr. Satoshi may collapse since real banks in real worlds can offer better terms and support for no-fee microtransactions and real-time verification and booking of microtransactions,
making people to forget about high-fee Bitcoin transactions.

[pontiacg5]

And you continue on with more complete nonsense.

There's no doubt in my mind now, you have no idea how bitcoin really works.

[terman45x]

I like the idea of a pool supporting zero fee dust transactions, but I guess this pool would not get serious hashing power

[trenton81]

I think the best advices are already given:
1. build a pool which accepts dust. Problem: why should a pool accept dust, when at the same time it could collect transactions with fees bigger than dust?
2. wait for further increase of BTC value until dust becomes valuable. I think this will be the time when the BTC devs will think about new approaches to handle the blockchain.

If I were to collect dust amounts I'd simply wait it out.

[terman45x]

1. build a pool which accepts dust. Problem: why should a pool accept dust, when at the same time it could collect transactions with fees bigger than dust?

Include all fee transactions first, then fill up the block up to the maximum size with no fee transactions. But I guess you will slightly increase orphan rate when using block with maximum size (1MB).

[BlockChainLottery]

It does appear you have some knowledge about the subject, and yet you don't. I bet if you reason with that knowledge that you have, then you know just as well as the rest of us do that your point of view isn't right.

Some answers:
- Micro transactions are allowed in Bitcoin, but only works when at least one decent miner accepts it.
- 'WE' are the miners, they don't accept dust payments. It would clog up the network.
- Satochi designed Bitcoin so it could accept micro transactions, but also chose to let the decision to do so to the miners.
- Mister Satochi is not the owner or boss of Bitcoin. He designed the first versions, now a whole bunch of developers are improving it.
- Not only the block headers have to be kept in memory, but all transactions ever made. With micro transaction used freely, the block chain would become very large very quickly. And because miners make Bitcoin work, and processing transactions cost time and energy, they can choose to ignore those. Probably because they 'only' get 25 BTC for it.
- Again, there is not one man in charge. It is closer to democracy.

It looks like you are demanding is should be free, and otherwise it's not fair. But every product or service cost money.
Just suck it up as it is, and go from there. And I would be happy to answer questions on the way.

[darius2020]

- 'WE' are the miners, they don't accept dust payments. It would clog up the network.
- Satochi designed Bitcoin so it could accept micro transactions (cut)
 
- Mister Satochi is not the owner or boss of Bitcoin. He designed the first versions, now a whole bunch of developers are improving it.

It looks like Stratum protocol is a nice solution to your problems.
No network clog risk.

http://mining.bitcoin.cz/stratum-mining

Frankly speaking I would prefer Mr. Satoshi (vs. Satochi) to stay Bitcoin boss forever
and comment "improvements" made, implemented by developers on a permanent basis, as exactly in case of Linux and  Linus Torvalds, principal author of the Linux kernel.

As suggested before, Bitcoin network can / cannot be clogged by a volume of transactions made in a future Blockchain made of > BTC 0.01 or < BTC 0.01 microtransactions.

It's not smart to suggest Bitcoin network cannot survive Bitcoin microtransactions once implemented and supported since alike clog can happen by volume of  > BTC 0.01 transactions on the global success of Bitcoin payments in a near future.


It's not smart to suggest, transaction fee is the only solution to control the volume of Bitcoin transactions and keep Bitcoin network on and operational now or in near future.

Frankly speaking, cloud computing mining, offered by IT powerful global VIPs can easily take control over Bitcoin mining, reducing number of individual Bitcoin miners to 0.

What we speak about is a number of solutions to let Bitcoin network to survive longer time than early gold rush years.

It looks like Bitcoin microtransactions can help Bitcoin network to survive, attracting millions of new clients, promoting Bitcoin globe-wide.

If you suggest Bitcoin dust money microtransactions can clog the network today, so we need to build
Bitcoin2 network right now, accepting microtransactions and accepting Bitcoin satoshis as exactly FED controlled banks accepted every penny or cent in the past, keep accepting and declare to accept in the future.

There is no such legal term like "money dust" or "Bitcoin dust".
Bitcoin satoshi is legal tender within Bitcoin network.

[Jcw188]

Well, the miners do have the BTC reward right now which is rather substantial, so I do think agree that fees should be rather low right now. What about raising fees as time goes by because the reward is being lowered?

[pontiacg5]

- 'WE' are the miners, they don't accept dust payments. It would clog up the network.
- Satochi designed Bitcoin so it could accept micro transactions (cut)
 
- Mister Satochi is not the owner or boss of Bitcoin. He designed the first versions, now a whole bunch of developers are improving it.

It looks like Stratum protocol is a nice solution to your problems.
No network clog risk.

Stratum has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the volume of spam dust transactions loading nodes. Dust transactions PREVENT legitimate bitcoin transactions from getting to a pool, so that the pool can send the transaction data to miners over STRATUM protocol, so they can try and fit it to a block.

http://mining.bitcoin.cz/stratum-mining

Frankly speaking I would prefer Mr. Satoshi (vs. Satochi) to stay Bitcoin boss forever
and comment "improvements" made, implemented by developers on a permanent basis, as exactly in case of Linux and  Linus Torvalds, principal author of the Linux kernel.

Really, because I would disagree and so would the rest of the network. Even the great Shatoshi would probably disagree with you. Where do you think he went anyway? You are aware he's not openly around any more, right?

As suggested before, Bitcoin network can / cannot be clogged by a volume of transactions made in a future Blockchain made of > BTC 0.01 or < BTC 0.01 microtransactions.

It most certainly can at the present time. If there were no fees for transactions, I myself could bring bitcoin to a grinding halt this very instant. You would not be able to spend any bitcoins, and that condition would continue till I stopped spamming and filling the transaction log.

It's not smart to suggest Bitcoin network cannot survive Bitcoin microtransactions once implemented and supported since alike clog can happen by volume of  > BTC 0.01 transactions on the global success of Bitcoin payments in a near future.

It's not smart to load a infant network with bullshit transactions carrying no value, just so they can possibly be accepted in the future when the same transactions might possibly carry value. If for some reason 5430 shatoshis is worth $5000 in the future, you can bet miners will mine a transaction with a 1 shatoshi fee, regardless of what the developers say. In the meantime they won't, and they shouldn't.


It's not smart to suggest, transaction fee is the only solution to control the volume of Bitcoin transactions and keep Bitcoin network on and operational now or in near future.

You are aware the block reward, the 25BTC you are so fixed on, goes away over time? How else do you suppose we could keep from overloading the network if there is no fee to transmit money? I could completely and totally fill the backlog, and keep it filled forever! If there are no transaction fees, the block reward will go away and everyone will quit mining. You will not be able to spend any coins then.

Frankly speaking, cloud computing mining, offered by IT powerful global VIPs can easily take control over Bitcoin mining, reducing number of individual Bitcoin miners to 0.

And bitcoin is then totally centralized, ran by the nicest people who work running huge data centers for free!!! Are you seriously that fucking stupid?

What we speak about is a number of solutions to let Bitcoin network to survive longer time than early gold rush years.

What you speak about is "how do I move this dust I can't move. I don't give a flying crap about bitcoin at all in the long run."

It looks like Bitcoin microtransactions can help Bitcoin network to survive, attracting millions of new clients, promoting Bitcoin globe-wide.

Quite the opposite, as I've pointed out. Microtransactions are not economically feesable in the future due to bitcoin protocol, and they actually load down and detract from the utility of bitcoin.

If you suggest Bitcoin dust money microtransactions can clog the network today, so we need to build
Bitcoin2 network right now, accepting microtransactions and accepting Bitcoin satoshis as exactly FED controlled banks accepted every penny or cent in the past, keep accepting and declare to accept in the future.

No we don't, because besides you and all 12 years olds in existence, nobody seriously gives a flying crap about sending $.005 to their neighbor.

There is no such legal term like "money dust" or "Bitcoin dust".
Bitcoin satoshi is legal tender within Bitcoin network.

No, it's not. If you disagree, try sending dust with no fee and see if the bitcoin network agrees with you. The bitcoin network is law, and it has to be the law. That was the main point of bitcoin, a trustless decentralized system.