Bitcoin network is rejecting Bitcoin microtransactions

[darius2020]

It looks like
new developers in Bitcoin network went wrong, rejecting Bitcoin microtransactions.

Let me know your opinion since I am interested in your support for transactions in micro and nano Bitcoins
since core developers of Bitcoin declared Bitcoin network to support every BTC 0.00000001 transaction.

https://www.facebook.com/NanoBitcoin

It looks like there is no need to offer transaction fee, as suggested, since Bitcoin banking should be free,
zero-processing fee based.

[avw1982]

I tried to send today a little amount of BTC and the transactioncosts where the half of the entire amount?? That must be changed.

[pm7]

What goal is in sending less the 1 cent? I agree that fee are relatively high, but they probably will decrease.

[darius2020]

There is no default fee in Bitcoin microtransactions.
Transaction fee is by declaration and can be set to 0.000ooo00
via Bitcoin app input window.

Try to send BTC 0.000ooo01 to your own address to risk nothing to let us know timing of your transaction (if signed with a number of valid blocks)

https://www.facebook.com/NanoBitcoin

I am surprised, developers of Bitcoin protocols suggest any transaction processing fee, transaction reward since it doesn't make any sense.

If you can sign a block you are awarded BTC 25
if you can't sign a block you still get nothing.

[Foxpup]

The Bitcoin network does not reject microtransactions. Instead, almost all nodes simply refuse to relay them and almost all mining pools refuse to include such transactions in blocks. If you can find a mining pool willing to include microtranscations in blocks, and you send your transaction to them directly, it will be accepted by the Bitcoin network. Good luck with that, though.

[Interized]

The Bitcoin network does not reject microtransactions. Instead, almost all nodes simply refuse to relay them and almost all mining pools refuse to include such transactions in blocks. If you can find a mining pool willing to include microtranscations in blocks, and you send your transaction to them directly, it will be accepted by the Bitcoin network. Good luck with that, though.

Bitcoin is indeed like gold in a sense it is a complete waste of any resources to move/send/transfer/trade "gold (or bitcoin) dust".

Only as Bitcoin continues to gain higher value will micro transactions be allowed, but in a sense won't be micro anymore when you consider value.

Sorry, you cannot spam Bitcoin for such pointless and wasteful transactions.

[darius2020]

The Bitcoin network does not reject microtransactions. Instead, almost all nodes simply refuse to relay them and almost all mining pools refuse to include such transactions in blocks. If you can find a mining pool willing to include microtranscations in blocks, and you send your transaction to them directly, it will be accepted by the Bitcoin network. Good luck with that, though.

The issue is Bitcoin network must be managed fair.
Satoshi declared every Bitcoin microtransaction, single satoshi transaction is valid and must be verified to be valid.

It looks new developers violate basic terms of Bitcoin rules, as implemented by Satoshi.

Acting that way, one day we have to pay 50% payment's processing fee, if not banned by Satoshi.

It looks like more and more new rules and standards in Bitcoin transaction processing are implemented.

Satoshi, try to protect your Bitcoin currency as no-fee crypto bank.

If we let transaction processing fees or such fees to grow,
there is no difference between standard banking system in real world
and Bitcoin payments in virtual worlds, affected by high payment processing fees.

Please try BTC 0.000ooo01  self microtransactions, as endorsed by Satoshi, founder of Bitcoin
and report problems via

https://www.facebook.com/NanoBitcoin

There is no need to demand any extra reward,  transaction processing fee, since BTC 25 is ok as a fair reward.

[Foxpup]

The issue is Bitcoin network must be managed fair.

It is managed fair. The bandwidth, data storage, and computing power required to confirm transactions are limited resources, and charging fees for these limited resources and discouraging people from wasting them is completely fair.

Satoshi declared every Bitcoin microtransaction, single satoshi transaction is valid and must be verified to be valid.

[citation needed] Satoshi never said that all valid transactions must be confirmed. Quite the contrary: since it's easy to waste vast amount of the network's limited resources by sending zillions of valid, but worthless, transactions, it is necessary for nodes to refuse worthless transactions, and Satoshi recognised this.

Satoshi, try to protect your Bitcoin currency as no-fee crypto bank.

It was Satoshi's intention for the network to eventually be supported entirely by transaction fees. See Section 6 of the whitepaper. Free transactions have always been the exception rather than the rule.

There is no need to demand any extra reward,  transaction processing fee, since BTC 25 is ok as a fair reward.

The BTC25 doesn't reward confirming transactions, it rewards mining blocks, regardless of what transactions that block confirms. There's nothing stopping a miner from mining an empty block, and in fact has an incentive to do so, as empty blocks are smaller and take less time to transmit. Confirming transactions has a real cost that must be paid for by transaction fees.

[medUSA]

I am all for lower fees, even free transactions.

But currently, if my wallet is full of microtransaction dust, it costs me more to send them than their actual value. So, even if the network supports microtransactions, no one wants to receive them.

[R0yalAir]

the real question is, can that fee cover the cost of electricity

[darius2020]

the real question is, can that fee cover the cost of electricity

Cost of electricity is your own option and  risk to join a challenge and win BTC 25.

"
Instead, almost all nodes simply refuse to relay them and almost all mining pools refuse to include such transactions in blocks.
"

It looks like powerful VIPs took control over Bitcoin network deciding what transactions are ok and what should be delated, implementing double spending in microtransactions.

Block creation should be time clocked process to have the same block created every 1-10 min
and distributed to every interested party not to let dirty games to be played to closing doors to
Bitcoin micropayments to poor people from Africa and other developing countries and regions.

What is Bitcoin dust for the VIPs from Japan, US, Europe is still a real money paid for
the poor villagers from Africa, Asia and developing countries.

Price of 1 Bitcoin can grow to $ 1,000,000 one day requesting people to stop < $ 100 payments via Bitcoin network since $100 payment may be called Bitcoin dust next year .

If someone pointed out a weak point in the idea of Bitcoin  collector's items , minted by skilled craftsmen
(not mined by miners) rejecting thousands of micropayments, so the idea of Bitcoin should be
reviewed and bugs removed.

What was so called "Bitcoin dust" 2 years ago is a real money today since price of Bitcoin went
up from < $1 to $1,000

So micro , nano Bitcoin payments should be rolled into account balance sum assigned to one signature
every year via zero-award  fee-free self-payments exactly as I can do at any real bank today.

If UN and others awarded Nobel Prize for the inventor of microcredits
so let me win another Nobel Prize for micropayments solution and technology within Bitcoin network.

Price of 1 Bitcoin can grow to $ 1,000,000 on speculation and minting mechanism implemented limiting delivery of Bitcoin currency to the market.

I fully support Bitcoin micropayments since I work closely with UN Foundation, other UN agencies,
developing renewable energy solutions for Africa and other poor, underdeveloped regions of the globe.

My intention is to implement Bitcoin micropayments into UN agencies world-wide.

If you personally support Bitcoin micropayments please support me
via
https://www.facebook.com/NanoBitcoin

to let us develop nice solutions and technologies in support of Bitcoin micropayments

[Lieji]

It looks like
new developers in Bitcoin network went wrong, rejecting Bitcoin microtransactions.

Let me know your opinion...

The current threshold is 5430 satoshi, which is just 0.05 USD.
I am very happy with the setup right now, and I don't see the benefits of sending a few cents to others.

[BlockChainLottery]

Foxpup is right. I think that you (OP) don't understand the whole concept of Bitcoin. Nothing is free. It's true that a miner gets a block reward of 25 BTC, but that's temporary and is halved every 4 years or so. It is just to start up Bitcoin. In the end fees have to be paid to keep miners mining.

Micro transactions are allowed, but miners make the decision to put it in a block. The higher the fee, the more likely the miner will include it. It's a kind of competition where the following happens:
fee is inverse proportional to waiting time
fee is proportional to security

When the Bitcoin price goes up, paying smaller amount will become much easier. Then maybe the client are adapted to make payments even smaller than 1 Satochi.

What do you think is a micro payment in Africa when expressed in dollars?

[DeboraMeeks]

IMO These fees go to the miners to make them more interested in carrying your BTC in the block. The fee is voluntary and you could pay with no fees but don't expect to see your payment for at least a day.

[nerFohanzo]

The Bitcoin network does not reject microtransactions. Instead, almost all nodes simply refuse to relay them and almost all mining pools refuse to include such transactions in blocks. If you can find a mining pool willing to include microtranscations in blocks, and you send your transaction to them directly, it will be accepted by the Bitcoin network. Good luck with that, though.

The issue is Bitcoin network must be managed fair.
Satoshi declared every Bitcoin microtransaction, single satoshi transaction is valid and must be verified to be valid.

It looks new developers violate basic terms of Bitcoin rules, as implemented by Satoshi.

Please try BTC 0.000ooo01  self microtransactions, as endorsed by Satoshi, founder of Bitcoin
and report problems via

Sending BTC 0.000ooo01 is valid transaction, but you have to modify the Bitcoin client and solo mine the block with this transaction yourselves

[stephane.viglielmo]

Have u a tutorial for deleting or adding fees in transaction ?

Thanks a lot,

[pontiacg5]

Have u a tutorial for deleting or adding fees in transaction ?

Thanks a lot,

What exactly did you, or are you wanting to, do?

Playing with raw transactions when you don't know what you are doing is a good way to loose your bitcoins.

Sending a transaction without enough fees is a good way to get bitcoins stuck in unconfirmed limbo land.

[stephane.viglielmo]

Have u a tutorial for deleting or adding fees in transaction ?

Thanks a lot,

What exactly did you, or are you wanting to, do?

Playing with raw transactions when you don't know what you are doing is a good way to loose your bitcoins.

Sending a transaction without enough fees is a good way to get bitcoins stuck in unconfirmed limbo land.

Anyway, I dont find the option to send no fees at all.

I use multibit 0.5.16

And there is no option a set or modify fees.

How could I do ?

Thanks a lot,

[pontiacg5]

Don't. I don't know how much clearer I can make this, but those bitcoins are likely to never "show up" at the address you sent them to, and at the very least it will take forever. In that time I'm sure you'll post twenty threads asking where your $0.03 worth of bitcoins are. This is why there is no option, or it's so hidden newbies can't find it.

Bitcoin isn't free, and if the network says you should pay a fee, then pay it or deal with the consequences. If you don't like that, go find another altcoin with no fees.


That being said, it's perfectly possible to send a transaction with no fee at all and still have it confirmed in a timely fashion. That transaction isn't going to be a bunch of 5430 shatoshi transactions though, you can bet on that.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees

See the section on transaction priority

[Foxpup]

Cost of electricity is your own option and  risk to join a challenge and win BTC 25.

Cost of electricity is not an "option" or "risk", it's an overhead expense of running a business. Mining is a business, not a "challenge", and you don't "win" anything, you get paid for providing a service. As a business operator, you don't have to provide your service to people who refuse to pay, or are consuming more of your resources than they're paying for. That's just common sense.

It looks like powerful VIPs took control over Bitcoin network deciding what transactions are ok and what should be delated, implementing double spending in microtransactions.

WTF are you talking about?

Block creation should be time clocked process to have the same block created every 1-10 min
and distributed to every interested party not to let dirty games to be played to closing doors to
Bitcoin micropayments to poor people from Africa and other developing countries and regions.

What dirty games are you talking about?

What is Bitcoin dust for the VIPs from Japan, US, Europe is still a real money paid for
the poor villagers from Africa, Asia and developing countries.

No it isn't. The dust limit of BTC0.0000543 is about 5 cents. The transaction fee to send that is BTC0.0001, or about 10 cents. I guarantee that there are no poor villagers trying to pay amounts lower than 5 cents over the Internet, and getting upset that they have to pay 10 cents to do so.

Price of 1 Bitcoin can grow to $ 1,000,000 one day requesting people to stop < $ 100 payments via Bitcoin network since $100 payment may be called Bitcoin dust next year .

Transaction fees and the dust limit have already been reduced multiple times as a result of rising exchange rates. What makes you think this won't continue in the future?

So micro , nano Bitcoin payments should be rolled into account balance sum assigned to one signature
every year via zero-award  fee-free self-payments exactly as I can do at any real bank today.

Explain how. You do realise that "real banks" charge fees for this service, right?

If UN and others awarded Nobel Prize for the inventor of microcredits
so let me win another Nobel Prize for micropayments solution and technology within Bitcoin network.

Your chance of winning a Nobel Prize would be slightly greater if you actually, you know, invented and implemented your solution. There's no Noble Prize for saying "wouldn't it be nice if..."

I fully support Bitcoin micropayments since I work closely with UN Foundation, other UN agencies,
developing renewable energy solutions for Africa and other poor, underdeveloped regions of the globe.

No you don't. If you truly supported Bitcoin micropayments, you would be running a mining pool which allows microtransactions. As I explained in my first post, that's all you need to do to make it happen.

My intention is to implement Bitcoin micropayments into UN agencies world-wide.

What's stopping you?

[darius2020]

"
Mining is a business, not a "challenge", and you don't "win" anything, you get paid for providing a service.
"

Nothing is mined in Bitcoin  technology.
Collector's item - Bitcoin - is minted by skilled craftsmen
and traded freely, purchased by other collectors.

You don't get paid for Bitcoin service
all you can do is to mint 25 Bitcoin today
and sell Bitcoin at Bitcoin exchange
or buy service, goods paying with Bitcoins, if accepted by the seller, trader.

Bitcoin minting is R&D challenge in maths, IT, quantum computing, 1Ph/s ASIC technology, cryptography

Read carefully -
no need for transaction fee

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
"
At the moment, many transactions are typically processed in a way where no fee is expected at all
"

[Peter882]

Read carefully -
no need for transaction fee

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
"
At the moment, many transactions are typically processed in a way where no fee is expected at all
"

You could always make no-fee tx, it will just take a longer time to be included in a block.


Just as Foxpup mentioned, if you are not happy with all the pools, you could run your own mining pool to accept micro-tx.
If people out there supports your idea, they would prefer your pool over the others and points their miners to your pool.

[BlockChainLottery]

You're hard to convince. You are citing the Bitcoin wiki, but that's just one sentence. It continues with

, but for transactions which draw coins from many bitcoin addresses and therefore have a large data size, a small transaction fee is usually expected.

Furthermore

Transaction fees are voluntary on the part of the person making the bitcoin transaction, as the person attempting to make a transaction can include any fee or none at all in the transaction. On the other hand, nobody mining new bitcoins necessarily needs to accept the transactions and include them in the new block being created. The transaction fee is therefore an incentive on the part of the bitcoin user to make sure that a particular transaction will get included into the next block which is generated.

So yes, mining exists in Bitcoin. Of course it's used as an analogy, but it has many parallels to actual mining. It takes time and energy, and you're not sure if you "mine" anything at all. So the 25 BTC is mined, and the transaction fee is a reward from the ones who want to make a transaction to keep the network secure and/or want to speed up the time that the transaction is included in one of the next blocks.

[darius2020]

thank you

"
you could run your own mining pool to accept micro-tx.
If people out there supports your idea, they would prefer your pool over the others and points their miners to your pool.
"

I am exactly interested to establish no-fee, zero-award  25 BTC  minting" pool, accepting micro, nano transactions, to let us trade in, collect, process, aggregate , donate "Bitcoin dust"
 
Can you guide me on how to start with  micro, nano transactions "minting" pool ?

[BlockChainLottery]

You can try that, but it's not gonna work. Nobody wants to mine without earning anything. And it only works if you manage to mine a block, which needs a large amount of hashing power.
It only works by dividing the 25BTC block reward among the miners working for your pool, considering fees are negligible at the moment.

[pontiacg5]

thank you

"
you could run your own mining pool to accept micro-tx.
If people out there supports your idea, they would prefer your pool over the others and points their miners to your pool.
"

I am exactly interested to establish no-fee, zero-award  25 BTC  minting" pool, accepting micro, nano transactions, to let us trade in, collect, process, aggregate , donate "Bitcoin dust"
 
Can you guide me on how to start with  micro, nano transactions "minting" pool ?

Start by getting enough hashing power to maintain at least a block a day. Right now, that's 60,000 gh/s. You'll need to increase the hashrate something in the area of 5-25% every two weeks.

There sure are a lot of people out there lined up ready and waiting to mine solely for the purpose of gathering dust 

[darius2020]

You can try that, but it's not gonna work.
===============================
 Nobody wants to mine without earning anything.
=====================================

Ok, "minting" pool, populated by thousands of of dust Bitcoin owners (skilled craftsmen),
interested to have their micro and nano Bitcoin transactions signed
can be self-supported and run on the same basis as any other mining pool

I can offer renewable energy solutions to power up computer facilities, ASIC, nano computing at zero-cost
so we can reduce are costs and share 25BTC among members.

Earning on share basis can work the same way as any pool mining.

email me if you are interested to have your dust, micro nano Bitcoin transactions supported
by a new micro transactions 25BTC "minting" pool made of skilled craftsmen 

Why do you suggest our skilled craftsmen should work for free, if awarded with 25BTC on every
block signed

[pontiacg5]

You can try that, but it's not gonna work.
===============================
 Nobody wants to mine without earning anything.
=====================================

Ok, "minting" pool, populated by thousands of of dust Bitcoin owners (skilled craftsmen),
interested to have their micro and nano Bitcoin transactions signed
can be self-supported and run on the same basis as any other mining pool

I can offer renewable energy solutions to power up computer facilities, ASIC, nano computing at zero-cost
so we can reduce are costs and share 25BTC among members.

Earning on share basis can work the same way as any pool mining.

email me if you are interested to have your dust, micro nano Bitcoin transactions supported
by a new micro transactions 25BTC "minting" pool made of skilled craftsmen  

Why do you suggest our skilled craftsmen should work for free, if awarded with 25BTC on every
block signed

Skilled craftsman that don't understand how ridiculous setting up a mining operation to save dust transactions are, or any of the fundamentals of bitcoin for that matter. People trying to move dust don't have the capital to own mining equipment. People with real mining equipment don't waste time jacking with $.005.

If you have dust, sit on it. Hopefully BTC goes up in value and what you hold is no longer worth $.005. Doing anything else with it right now is a righteous waste of time.

The transaction fee is there to keep tards such as yourself from choking bitcoin out with bogus worthless dust transactions. Only so many transactions can be processed so fast. It makes absolute sense to let people with no value at all in bitcoin control the network as if they had a stake in the project 

[BlockChainLottery]

Please, try to read my whole answer instead of pointing out one thing. For example:

Why do you suggest our skilled craftsmen should work for free, if awarded with 25BTC on every
block signed

I didn't suggest that. I said:

It only works by dividing the 25BTC block reward among the miners working for your pool, considering fees are negligible at the moment.

I think pontiacg5, Foxpup and I have made it very clear why we think your ideas and understanding isn't right. We're just trying to help you and give you our opinions. You are implying that Bitcoin is unfair regarding to dust payments, but that's implemented the way it is because of what pontiacg5 explains. And it is done that way because the core developers implemented it and the majority of miners think it is the best way.

To sum it all up, yes you can make a mining pool to accept dust payments. Good luck with that though.

[darius2020]

And it is done that way because the core developers implemented it

Exactly the case.
Core developers can implement support for micro and nano transactions any time
to let us donate Bitcoin dust to local and global foundations.

As with any p2p public project on the Internet, there is one man (VIP) behind the project,
who can suggest and enforce such nice solution to be implemented.

If you suggest public voting is required to implement Bitcoin microtransactions
so just let us vote.

[pontiacg5]

And it is done that way because the core developers implemented it

Exactly the case.
Core developers can implement support for micro and nano transactions any time
to let us donate Bitcoin dust to local and global foundations.

As with any p2p public project on the Internet, there is one man (VIP) behind the project,
who can suggest and enforce such nice solution to be implemented.

If you suggest public voting is required to implement Bitcoin microtransactions
so just let us vote.

There's already been a vote, and the bitcoin network agrees. What don't you understand about that? We DO NOT want dust transactions spamming the transaction backlog. People with real money need to be able to move bitcoins.

The bitcoin developers can't implement this change either, it has to be the miners. All the miners already decided that they don't want you or your dust transactions. No amount of crying in the world is going to change that.

You clearly don't understand bitcoin at all.

[darius2020]

There's already been a vote, and the bitcoin network agrees. What don't you understand about that? We DO NOT want dust transactions spamming the transaction backlog. People with real money need to be able to move bitcoins.

The bitcoin developers can't implement this change either, it has to be the miners. All the miners already decided that they don't want you or your dust transactions. No amount of crying in the world is going to change that.

You clearly don't understand bitcoin at all.

There's already been a vote, and the bitcoin network agrees

So if the bitcoin network agrees so where is the problem with microtransactions ?

We DO NOT want dust transactions spamming the transaction backlog.

Who is WE ?

Any Bitcoin transactions is legal transaction under Bitcoin standards.
If you claim Mr. Satoshi did something wrong or his idea has week points
just say so.

http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

The only official website endorsed by Mr. Satoshi is the above

Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System
Satoshi Nakamoto
satoshin@gmx.com
www.bitcoin.org

www.bitcoin.org

Can you see any ban on microtransactions in Bitcoin ?

Money is money and there is no dust money.

Under Proof-of-work, Merkle Tree algorithms implemented by Mr. Satoshi and nonce0, nonce1, nonce2
implemented by mining pools it takes the same amount of time to sign a block with one transaction
as with 1,000 or 1M transactions since Merkle Tree algorithm is very fast.

Microtransactions can generate just another Blockchain if you are afraid of so called "Bitcoin dust spamming"

But solution is not really complicated as exactly in case of no-reward, zero-fee transactions in general.
You can earn BTC 25 ... BTC 25.05 or nothing


There is no need to violate the genuine idea by Mr. Satoshi and claim Bitcoin transaction fees as charged by real banks in real worlds.

There is no need to punish those doing zero-fee, no-reward transactions since your reward is still granted by the system - BTC 25 as of today.

as Mr. Satoshi said :

A block header with no transactions would be about 80 bytes. If we suppose blocks are
generated every 10 minutes, 80 bytes * 6 * 24 * 365 = 4.2MB per year. With computer systems
typically selling with 2GB of RAM as of 2008, and Moore's Law predicting current growth of
1.2GB per year, storage should not be a problem even if the block headers must be kept in
memory.

There is no WE DO or WE DO NOT in Botcoin network since there only one man in charge of the Bitcoin network and his name is Mr. Satoshi.

Since Mr. Satoshi endorsed Bitcoin microtransactions there is no sense to claim otherwise.

One Blockchain for > 0.01 BTC transactions
and one Blockchain for  zero-fee  microtransactions < 0.01 BTC
can be established, maintained and supported by Bitcoin network.

There is nothing in the Articles of Incorporation of the Bitcoin to oppose the above.

If we, the poor people let Bitcoin transaction fees to keep growing on, so one day Bitcoin idea by Mr. Satoshi may collapse since real banks in real worlds can offer better terms and support for no-fee microtransactions and real-time verification and booking of microtransactions,
making people to forget about high-fee Bitcoin transactions.

[pontiacg5]

And you continue on with more complete nonsense.

There's no doubt in my mind now, you have no idea how bitcoin really works.

[terman45x]

I like the idea of a pool supporting zero fee dust transactions, but I guess this pool would not get serious hashing power

[trenton81]

I think the best advices are already given:
1. build a pool which accepts dust. Problem: why should a pool accept dust, when at the same time it could collect transactions with fees bigger than dust?
2. wait for further increase of BTC value until dust becomes valuable. I think this will be the time when the BTC devs will think about new approaches to handle the blockchain.

If I were to collect dust amounts I'd simply wait it out.

[terman45x]

1. build a pool which accepts dust. Problem: why should a pool accept dust, when at the same time it could collect transactions with fees bigger than dust?

Include all fee transactions first, then fill up the block up to the maximum size with no fee transactions. But I guess you will slightly increase orphan rate when using block with maximum size (1MB).

[BlockChainLottery]

It does appear you have some knowledge about the subject, and yet you don't. I bet if you reason with that knowledge that you have, then you know just as well as the rest of us do that your point of view isn't right.

Some answers:
- Micro transactions are allowed in Bitcoin, but only works when at least one decent miner accepts it.
- 'WE' are the miners, they don't accept dust payments. It would clog up the network.
- Satochi designed Bitcoin so it could accept micro transactions, but also chose to let the decision to do so to the miners.
- Mister Satochi is not the owner or boss of Bitcoin. He designed the first versions, now a whole bunch of developers are improving it.
- Not only the block headers have to be kept in memory, but all transactions ever made. With micro transaction used freely, the block chain would become very large very quickly. And because miners make Bitcoin work, and processing transactions cost time and energy, they can choose to ignore those. Probably because they 'only' get 25 BTC for it.
- Again, there is not one man in charge. It is closer to democracy.

It looks like you are demanding is should be free, and otherwise it's not fair. But every product or service cost money.
Just suck it up as it is, and go from there. And I would be happy to answer questions on the way.

[darius2020]

- 'WE' are the miners, they don't accept dust payments. It would clog up the network.
- Satochi designed Bitcoin so it could accept micro transactions (cut)
 
- Mister Satochi is not the owner or boss of Bitcoin. He designed the first versions, now a whole bunch of developers are improving it.

It looks like Stratum protocol is a nice solution to your problems.
No network clog risk.

http://mining.bitcoin.cz/stratum-mining

Frankly speaking I would prefer Mr. Satoshi (vs. Satochi) to stay Bitcoin boss forever
and comment "improvements" made, implemented by developers on a permanent basis, as exactly in case of Linux and  Linus Torvalds, principal author of the Linux kernel.

As suggested before, Bitcoin network can / cannot be clogged by a volume of transactions made in a future Blockchain made of > BTC 0.01 or < BTC 0.01 microtransactions.

It's not smart to suggest Bitcoin network cannot survive Bitcoin microtransactions once implemented and supported since alike clog can happen by volume of  > BTC 0.01 transactions on the global success of Bitcoin payments in a near future.


It's not smart to suggest, transaction fee is the only solution to control the volume of Bitcoin transactions and keep Bitcoin network on and operational now or in near future.

Frankly speaking, cloud computing mining, offered by IT powerful global VIPs can easily take control over Bitcoin mining, reducing number of individual Bitcoin miners to 0.

What we speak about is a number of solutions to let Bitcoin network to survive longer time than early gold rush years.

It looks like Bitcoin microtransactions can help Bitcoin network to survive, attracting millions of new clients, promoting Bitcoin globe-wide.

If you suggest Bitcoin dust money microtransactions can clog the network today, so we need to build
Bitcoin2 network right now, accepting microtransactions and accepting Bitcoin satoshis as exactly FED controlled banks accepted every penny or cent in the past, keep accepting and declare to accept in the future.

There is no such legal term like "money dust" or "Bitcoin dust".
Bitcoin satoshi is legal tender within Bitcoin network.

[Jcw188]

Well, the miners do have the BTC reward right now which is rather substantial, so I do think agree that fees should be rather low right now. What about raising fees as time goes by because the reward is being lowered?

[pontiacg5]

- 'WE' are the miners, they don't accept dust payments. It would clog up the network.
- Satochi designed Bitcoin so it could accept micro transactions (cut)
 
- Mister Satochi is not the owner or boss of Bitcoin. He designed the first versions, now a whole bunch of developers are improving it.

It looks like Stratum protocol is a nice solution to your problems.
No network clog risk.

Stratum has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the volume of spam dust transactions loading nodes. Dust transactions PREVENT legitimate bitcoin transactions from getting to a pool, so that the pool can send the transaction data to miners over STRATUM protocol, so they can try and fit it to a block.

http://mining.bitcoin.cz/stratum-mining

Frankly speaking I would prefer Mr. Satoshi (vs. Satochi) to stay Bitcoin boss forever
and comment "improvements" made, implemented by developers on a permanent basis, as exactly in case of Linux and  Linus Torvalds, principal author of the Linux kernel.

Really, because I would disagree and so would the rest of the network. Even the great Shatoshi would probably disagree with you. Where do you think he went anyway? You are aware he's not openly around any more, right?

As suggested before, Bitcoin network can / cannot be clogged by a volume of transactions made in a future Blockchain made of > BTC 0.01 or < BTC 0.01 microtransactions.

It most certainly can at the present time. If there were no fees for transactions, I myself could bring bitcoin to a grinding halt this very instant. You would not be able to spend any bitcoins, and that condition would continue till I stopped spamming and filling the transaction log.

It's not smart to suggest Bitcoin network cannot survive Bitcoin microtransactions once implemented and supported since alike clog can happen by volume of  > BTC 0.01 transactions on the global success of Bitcoin payments in a near future.

It's not smart to load a infant network with bullshit transactions carrying no value, just so they can possibly be accepted in the future when the same transactions might possibly carry value. If for some reason 5430 shatoshis is worth $5000 in the future, you can bet miners will mine a transaction with a 1 shatoshi fee, regardless of what the developers say. In the meantime they won't, and they shouldn't.


It's not smart to suggest, transaction fee is the only solution to control the volume of Bitcoin transactions and keep Bitcoin network on and operational now or in near future.

You are aware the block reward, the 25BTC you are so fixed on, goes away over time? How else do you suppose we could keep from overloading the network if there is no fee to transmit money? I could completely and totally fill the backlog, and keep it filled forever! If there are no transaction fees, the block reward will go away and everyone will quit mining. You will not be able to spend any coins then.

Frankly speaking, cloud computing mining, offered by IT powerful global VIPs can easily take control over Bitcoin mining, reducing number of individual Bitcoin miners to 0.

And bitcoin is then totally centralized, ran by the nicest people who work running huge data centers for free!!! Are you seriously that fucking stupid?

What we speak about is a number of solutions to let Bitcoin network to survive longer time than early gold rush years.

What you speak about is "how do I move this dust I can't move. I don't give a flying crap about bitcoin at all in the long run."

It looks like Bitcoin microtransactions can help Bitcoin network to survive, attracting millions of new clients, promoting Bitcoin globe-wide.

Quite the opposite, as I've pointed out. Microtransactions are not economically feesable in the future due to bitcoin protocol, and they actually load down and detract from the utility of bitcoin.

If you suggest Bitcoin dust money microtransactions can clog the network today, so we need to build
Bitcoin2 network right now, accepting microtransactions and accepting Bitcoin satoshis as exactly FED controlled banks accepted every penny or cent in the past, keep accepting and declare to accept in the future.

No we don't, because besides you and all 12 years olds in existence, nobody seriously gives a flying crap about sending $.005 to their neighbor.

There is no such legal term like "money dust" or "Bitcoin dust".
Bitcoin satoshi is legal tender within Bitcoin network.

No, it's not. If you disagree, try sending dust with no fee and see if the bitcoin network agrees with you. The bitcoin network is law, and it has to be the law. That was the main point of bitcoin, a trustless decentralized system.

[pontiacg5]

Well, the miners do have the BTC reward right now which is rather substantial, so I do think agree that fees should be rather low right now. What about raising fees as time goes by because the reward is being lowered?

As adoption increases, transaction volume should increase. As the block reward is halved, it is anticipated that fees transacted will increase to compensate.

The fees now are not prohibitively expensive, and keep people from spamming the blockchain unless they have a lot of bitcoins. People with a lot of bitcoins probably aren't going to spam the chain like a bunch of clueless shatoshi dice newbies who have no idea what they are doing and how it affects bitcoin.

[darius2020]

As the block reward is halved, it is anticipated that fees transacted will increase to compensate.

Are you serious ?
If transaction fee increases by 10 per cent on every block reward halved
so according to your suggestion, transaction fee is to eat up any sum transferred in a future.

The fees now are not prohibitively expensive, and keep people from spamming the blockchain unless they have a lot of bitcoins

.


I am sorry but many people don't have a lot of bitcoins today and not every man is a millionaire today
( 1,000 bitcoins made $ 1,000,000 only 2 months ago)

 

People with a lot of bitcoins probably aren't going to spam the chain

Any transaction is just a valid Bitcoin transfer transaction.

like a bunch of clueless shatoshi dice newbies who have no idea what they are doing and how it affects bitcoin.

Do you suggest Mr. Satoshi developed his Bitcoin idea for the rich only ?

According to your opinion, his great idea of no middle-man bank has been turned upside down into
Bitcoin bank for the rich.

World of made of 7Bs poor and  just few Ms rich.

Bitcoin bank was developed for the poor since the rich don't need virtual bank or virtual currency since they are satisfied with present banking standards and can afford bank fees.

Bitcoin was exactly developed to let parties save on transactions tools.

Ever increased transaction fees can disrupt any great idea like the one by Mr. Satoshi.

[pontiacg5]

I'm just going to walk away now, because stupid like that just can't be reasoned with.

[geniusboy91]

No it isn't. The dust limit of BTC0.0000543 is about 5 cents. The transaction fee to send that is BTC0.0001, or about 10 cents. I guarantee that there are no poor villagers trying to pay amounts lower than 5 cents over the Internet, and getting upset that they have to pay 10 cents to do so.

I understand the need and purpose of fees, and for most transactions, the fees are insignificant as advertised, but I disagree with you when it comes to something like TipperCoin for Twitter. They charge a mandatory BTC.0001 miners fee for each tip you leave. I see $0.05 as a reasonable amount someone would want to leave just for making you laugh or answering a question but the fee is 160% of the actual amount to send. And I think this is where Bitcoin could really shine. This is something where if it takes a day to show up, I don't think it really matters, and even if it isn't feeless, I think that an .000001 fee would be sufficient just to get it above all the feeless transactions.

[pontiacg5]

No it isn't. The dust limit of BTC0.0000543 is about 5 cents. The transaction fee to send that is BTC0.0001, or about 10 cents. I guarantee that there are no poor villagers trying to pay amounts lower than 5 cents over the Internet, and getting upset that they have to pay 10 cents to do so.

I understand the need and purpose of fees, and for most transactions, the fees are insignificant as advertised, but I disagree with you when it comes to something like TipperCoin for Twitter. They charge a mandatory BTC.0001 miners fee for each tip you leave. I see $0.05 as a reasonable amount someone would want to leave just for making you laugh or answering a question but the fee is 160% of the actual amount to send. And I think this is where Bitcoin could really shine. This is something where if it takes a day to show up, I don't think it really matters, and even if it isn't feeless, I think that an .000001 fee would be sufficient just to get it above all the feeless transactions.

I would personally want to hit you upside the head with a stick for sending me $.05 in bitcoin, it makes it hard to spend as you said and I really don't care about a nickel. If I made you laugh, just laugh.

There is no reason that transactions like that have to be broadcast on the network, though. They could all be handled in an internal database, then paid out in lump sums.

[BlockChainLottery]

As the block reward is halved, it is anticipated that fees transacted will increase to compensate.

Are you serious ?
If transaction fee increases by 10 per cent on every block reward halved
so according to your suggestion, transaction fee is to eat up any sum transferred in a future.

No, not if Bitcoin becomes very popular. In the new client they are trying to develop a more organic way to determine the fee at a given moment to get a transaction through. Then it could even be lower than it is now.

The fees now are not prohibitively expensive, and keep people from spamming the blockchain unless they have a lot of bitcoins

.


I am sorry but many people don't have a lot of bitcoins today and not every man is a millionaire today
( 1,000 bitcoins made $ 1,000,000 only 2 months ago)

What in your opinion is a dust payment in dollars? 1 dollar? 1 cent? 0.01 cent?

 

People with a lot of bitcoins probably aren't going to spam the chain

Any transaction is just a valid Bitcoin transfer transaction.

Can't argue with that, but miners decide. Do you think it should be handled different, then how?

like a bunch of clueless shatoshi dice newbies who have no idea what they are doing and how it affects bitcoin.

Do you suggest Mr. Satoshi developed his Bitcoin idea for the rich only ?

Again, in dollars, what is poor and what is rich?

According to your opinion, his great idea of no middle-man bank has been turned upside down into
Bitcoin bank for the rich.

World of made of 7Bs poor and  just few Ms rich.

Bitcoin bank was developed for the poor since the rich don't need virtual bank or virtual currency since they are satisfied with present banking standards and can afford bank fees.

Bitcoin was exactly developed to let parties save on transactions tools.

Ever increased transaction fees can disrupt any great idea like the one by Mr. Satoshi.

I think Bitcoin was not designed specially for the rich or the poor. It was designed to get rid of banks. In that way it saves in costs, most of the time people have to pay just for having an account. Also, it makes paying via the internet very easy because it is part of it.

[darius2020]

It looks like
Bitcoin idea by Satoshi has no future
since transactions can be easily disrupted by miners on strike, requesting more and more money
in transaction fees.

Let me know what is a chance to have Google to join Bitcoin as No.1 Miner
to process every dust, micro, nano Bitcoin transactions as intended by Satoshi.

Real bank money transfer, payment transactions are almost free
so if you are not a miner, there is no sense to buy Bitcoin, risk Bitcoin processing, storing, transaction
verification to buy goods since withy real money transactions are processed on-line at zero-award, fee-free if you have account with one of key banks.

Scott Li is exactly testing microtransactions in Bitcoin ( micro nano transactions) for us .
Name of his service is #TipperCoin on Twitter.

If Scott fails to succeed so the only chance for Bitcoin to survive is price of Bitcoin to rise on speculation by investment funds.

Overnight risk for traders to accept payments in Bitcoin is too high.

Two of my friends founded private banks 20 years ago
and any risk in banking system must be contained.

Since risk in price fluctuactions of Bitcoin v. Dollar cannot be contained
the only risk free business transacted is the business by Bitcoin miners, minting 25 Bitcoins
for sale.

Market is flooded with thousands of Th/s miners today
so it's now a time for major players like Google, IBM to join
Bitcoin mining markets with Ph/s miners,
reducing number of individual miners to Zero.

Miners are insiders within Bitcoin network.
Non-Miners are outsiders within Bitcoin network.

Outsiders are controlled by insiders (a small group of miners setting their own rules to make as much Bitcoins as possible).

So the only way for Bitcoin Network to survive is to accept zero-fee, no-award transactions (microBitcoin, nanoBitcoin,  BitcoinTips since otherwise Bitcoin democracy is controlled by supremacy of few miners at no risk of Bitcoin vs. Dollar fluctuactions in exchange rate.

[DannyHamilton]

Bitcoin idea by Satoshi has no future
since transactions can be easily disrupted by miners on strike, requesting more and more money
in transaction fees.

process every dust, micro, nano Bitcoin transactions as intended by Satoshi.

Satoshi whitepaper (please read it!):
http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

the incentive can transition entirely to transaction fees

Stop trying to back up your argument with the Satoshi name since you clearly have no idea what Satoshi intended.

So the only way for Bitcoin Network to survive is to accept zero-fee, no-award transactions (microBitcoin, nanoBitcoin,  BitcoinTips since otherwise Bitcoin democracy is controlled by supremacy of few miners at no risk of Bitcoin vs. Dollar fluctuactions in exchange rate.

Go ahead!  Nobody is stopping you.  You can create a mining pool that only confirms transactions that are free (no transaction fee).  Everybody who agrees with you can join your pool.  There is no reason that free transactions can't be confirmed if enough people believe as you do.

[BlockChainLottery]

So the only way for Bitcoin Network to survive is to accept zero-fee, no-award transactions (microBitcoin, nanoBitcoin,  BitcoinTips since otherwise Bitcoin democracy is controlled by supremacy of few miners at no risk of Bitcoin vs. Dollar fluctuactions in exchange rate.

No service is really free. I know miners are rewarded by the block reward of 25BTC, but that's just to kick start this endeavour. In my opinion the whole fee system is working just fine, preventing the network from flooding and securing the future of Bitcoin by making sure people still want to mine.
There is no way you should connect mining to the exchange rate. For example banks can also not be held accounted for the exchange rate of say dollar/euro. That is complete nonsense.

[dadomado]

I think this is important to add in terms of issues that has been raised
Transaction fees serve 2 purposes in the Bitcoin network. It rewards the miners for confirming transactions and also sets a priority on the inclusion of your transaction in the next block. ie, if you pay a higher transaction fee, chances are greater you will be included in the next block so that it can be verified and confirmed. For faster confirmations, spend more on the transaction fee.

[darius2020]

you said:

Transaction fees serve 2 purposes in the Bitcoin network. It rewards the miners for confirming transactions and also sets a priority on the inclusion of your transaction in the next block. ie, if you pay a higher transaction fee, chances are greater you will be included in the next block so that it can be verified and confirmed. For faster confirmations, spend more on the transaction fee.

Miners or (minters = money minting) are rewarded by default ( 25 BTC today)
so there is no need to set any priority on the inclusion of one's transaction into the next block.

Acting otherwise, miners or "minters" can demand higher and higher transaction fees to be offered
to have transaction hashed within a block, making Bitcoin payments to collapse
transaction fees to double and double on every strike by miners ( minters)
forcing those accepting Bitcoin payments to establish Bitcoin block hashing agency to
keep business sound.

chances are greater you will be included in the next block so that it can be verified and confirmed. For faster confirmations, spend more on the transaction fee.

How much in transaction fee makes you to include a specific transaction into the new block ?

And "faster confirmation" stays for what ?

5 min, 1 hour, 1 day , 1 month ?

It looks like
Bitcoin can collapse on transaction fee doubled from time to time
Bitcoin can collapse on no-fee transaction to be delayed or even never included into the new hashed block

So Bitcoin network turns into Easy Entry - Hard Exit  Game

You can accept Bitcoin payments buy to have pay a large transaction fee to exit Bitcoin game.

First Class traditional banks offer clients no-fee transaction today
so the only business in accepting Bitcoin is deflanatory feature built-it into generation of Bitcoins.

If you can delay Bitcoin payment transaction so you can easily violate the trust in 1 BTC at $900
transactions, since why should we risk buying Bitcoins, accepting Bitcoins as payments
if you can stop us with spending Bitcoins, doubling transaction fee from time to time,
making small Bitcoin payments expensive, since transaction fee can make 50% or more of the sum transferred.

So my advise to miners ( minters) is to keep transaction fee as low-as-possible,
accept no-fee transactions, don't delay zero-fee transactions
and play fair, since otherwise interest in Bitcoin can easily dimnish.

[BlockChainLottery]

Miners or (minters = money minting) are rewarded by default ( 25 BTC today)
so there is no need to set any priority on the inclusion of one's transaction into the next block.

Imagine what would happen without any fees whatsoever. Everybody could make as much transactions as they like with as small amounts as they like. That could possibly result in maybe 10, or 100, or 1000, or even higher transactions per second. I think the network, full clients, and storage capacity wouldn't be anywhere near capable of tackling that situation. Hence resulting in the end of Bitcoin.

And yet with fees, it doesn't.

First Class traditional banks offer clients no-fee transaction today so the only business in accepting Bitcoin is deflanatory feature built-it into generation of Bitcoins.

Think hard, then I'm sure you can think of other advantages.

[Sonny]

Miners or (minters = money minting) are rewarded by default ( 25 BTC today)
so there is no need to set any priority on the inclusion of one's transaction into the next block.

Imagine what would happen without any fees whatsoever. Everybody could make as much transactions as they like with as small amounts as they like. That could possibly result in maybe 10, or 100, or 1000, or even higher transactions per second. I think the network, full clients, and storage capacity wouldn't be anywhere near capable of tackling that situation. Hence resulting in the end of Bitcoin.

And yet with fees, it doesn't.

+1

People can keep sending their bitcoin back and forth with no cost, and the whole network will be clogged.
Those "real" transactions can hardly be included in a block then...

[darius2020]

Everybody could make as much transactions as they like with as small amounts as they like.

Exactly the idea staying behind Bitcoin -
No limits on electronic payment transactions.

People can keep sending their bitcoin back and forth with no cost, and the whole network will be clogged.
Those "real" transactions can hardly be included in a block then...

Smart people don't have any need to send their bitcoin back and forth.

To your surprise, most real banks offers no-fee money transfers within the same bank,
so large banks make this offer available to multi-Ms of  clients for free,
exactly as mobile telephony networks offer free calls within the network,
not making people to sit 24h/365 to talk and talk forever.

Nothing new under the Sun.

If your intention is to find the way to limit number of Bitcoin transactions,
so doubling the transaction fee every year you can easily freeze Bitcoin network.

Smart real bank systems can handle Bs of transactions
so please don't suggest Bitcoin network has no prospects to grow.

[Sonny]

To your surprise, most real banks offers no-fee money transfers within the same bank,
so large banks make this offer available to multi-Ms of  clients for free,
exactly as mobile telephony networks offer free calls within the network,
not making people to sit 24h/365 to talk and talk forever.

To your surprise, you can send no-fee instant micro off-chain tx in various sites such as coinbase.

If you really need to send out microtransactions frequently, get yourself a coinbase account, and ask all your recipients to give you their deposit addresses on coinbase.