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Author Topic: How to make sure Bitcoin will never be banned by governments!  (Read 7005 times)
Piper67
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August 29, 2011, 02:07:43 PM
 #41

I wholly support you and your actions and efforts, but I think it's a mistake to think you can do anything to keep government from regulating bitcoins. Governments like the US will be hard pressed to get rid of something like encrypted numbers. To outlaw bitcoin would only mean we have to change the name of bitcoin, really. You cannot outlaw numbers.

You can outlaw the exchange of cryptocurrency, then businesses would be breaking the law in the country that does this including monetary exchanges.  From that point a government could monitor postal and wire transfers to/from known foreign exchanges.  After that essentially a country that has done this has limited the use of the currency to nearly untraceable person to person transfers and already illegal/underground businesses.  It would make the currency in that country nearly useless.  But yes a favorable PR movement to push past the stigma that bitcoin is the currency of money launderers and the illegal drug trade could only be beneficial, even more so is to donate the actual coin to them and someone help set them up a secure cryptocurrency donation system rather than have a 3rd party receive and then exchange to fiat currency.

You'd have to be able to ban the exchange of cryptocurrency in EVERY COUNTRY. That includes Bolivia, Bhutan, North Korea, Holland... and about 230 others.
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Piper67
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August 29, 2011, 02:18:12 PM
 #42

I wholly support you and your actions and efforts, but I think it's a mistake to think you can do anything to keep government from regulating bitcoins. Governments like the US will be hard pressed to get rid of something like encrypted numbers. To outlaw bitcoin would only mean we have to change the name of bitcoin, really. You cannot outlaw numbers.

You can outlaw the exchange of cryptocurrency, then businesses would be breaking the law in the country that does this including monetary exchanges.  From that point a government could monitor postal and wire transfers to/from known foreign exchanges.  After that essentially a country that has done this has limited the use of the currency to nearly untraceable person to person transfers and already illegal/underground businesses.  It would make the currency in that country nearly useless.  But yes a favorable PR movement to push past the stigma that bitcoin is the currency of money launderers and the illegal drug trade could only be beneficial, even more so is to donate the actual coin to them and someone help set them up a secure cryptocurrency donation system rather than have a 3rd party receive and then exchange to fiat currency.

You'd have to be able to ban the exchange of cryptocurrency in EVERY COUNTRY. That includes Bolivia, Bhutan, North Korea, Holland... and about 230 others.

No, just as I mentioned, a government(s) could ban the local exchanges and then monitor postal and financial wire transfers from the other known ones, no this would not entirely shut down the exchange of cryptocurrency but it would essentially shut it down for the average joe and plain jane consumers of the system and those are the ones needed to establish a real economy and not a black market play currency.

Uh huh... the way the Chinese government bans access to the internet, for example. There are still people behind the great firewall connecting to the internet every day... and a p2p network would be even more difficult to monitor. And say the Chilean government gets away with it and forces Tradehill to shut down... two days later you'd have Tradehill operating from Argentina, or Peru.

Governments could try and make it difficult for Bitcoin, but an outright ban would be as impossible as banning porn, or music and movie downloads.
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August 29, 2011, 03:08:18 PM
 #43

I wholly support you and your actions and efforts, but I think it's a mistake to think you can do anything to keep government from regulating bitcoins. Governments like the US will be hard pressed to get rid of something like encrypted numbers. To outlaw bitcoin would only mean we have to change the name of bitcoin, really. You cannot outlaw numbers.

You can outlaw the exchange of cryptocurrency, then businesses would be breaking the law in the country that does this including monetary exchanges.  From that point a government could monitor postal and wire transfers to/from known foreign exchanges.  After that essentially a country that has done this has limited the use of the currency to nearly untraceable person to person transfers and already illegal/underground businesses.  It would make the currency in that country nearly useless.  But yes a favorable PR movement to push past the stigma that bitcoin is the currency of money launderers and the illegal drug trade could only be beneficial, even more so is to donate the actual coin to them and someone help set them up a secure cryptocurrency donation system rather than have a 3rd party receive and then exchange to fiat currency.

You'd have to be able to ban the exchange of cryptocurrency in EVERY COUNTRY. That includes Bolivia, Bhutan, North Korea, Holland... and about 230 others.

No, just as I mentioned, a government(s) could ban the local exchanges and then monitor postal and financial wire transfers from the other known ones, no this would not entirely shut down the exchange of cryptocurrency but it would essentially shut it down for the average joe and plain jane consumers of the system and those are the ones needed to establish a real economy and not a black market play currency.

Uh huh... the way the Chinese government bans access to the internet, for example. There are still people behind the great firewall connecting to the internet every day... and a p2p network would be even more difficult to monitor. And say the Chilean government gets away with it and forces Tradehill to shut down... two days later you'd have Tradehill operating from Argentina, or Peru.

Governments could try and make it difficult for Bitcoin, but an outright ban would be as impossible as banning porn, or music and movie downloads.

I'm not arguing that but under a banned situation with reasonably difficult means to access the plain jane's and average joe's would not be in the market at a level sufficient to build it up as a currency.  The only real defense is to give it a good name and mass adoption before this happens and hope that if it does happen the the users I am talking about don't flee on mass and plummet the value of the currency but again this would be isolated to only the countries that did this so likely this would be done on a more global cooperative banning like say the major western and eastern countries seeking to "save" their currencies.  Putting up say tradehill in some other country alone would not work for the average user because the governments that ban it could fairly easily monitor traffic via the net or even postal to the new tradehill location and then you would get into needing proxies and other intermediaries and that is were the average consumer would find it more burdensome than what it is worth.

Starting to have people see charitable contribution is a positive move toward the defense of cryptocurrency, and mass adoption is the next since it becomes that much more difficult for a government to ban the currency in a "good" light to it's citizens, right now the easy justification is the view that this currency is for money launderers and the black market and banning it under those typical uses would be much more easy for the government than banning an "honest" economy for the currency.

Any thing other than seeing this obvious fact is just speculation, sure in countries where it is banned wont eliminate it but it would have a notable impact to the value and adoption of the currency is all I am saying.  If you look at some other posts I made about this rough topic you will see that I am more inclined to see that positive legislation is more likely to occur than negative however.  Economies that are more isolated and in need of much more import based trade are likely to see cryptocurrency since it helps to reduce the impact to currency exchange for those countries (ie. Australia, New Zealand), additionally if "Wall Street" picks up on the trade/investment potential of cryptocurrency (Ruxum is a very good example of this starting to happen), then you would likely see governments not trying to ban it but to tax it just like any other forex or stock/mutual fund investment.

Oh, I'm the first to agree with you that Bitcoin is suffering from a tremendous crisis of credibility right now. In fact, it's what prompted me to start the thread on a PR effort. I also happen to think that donations to NGOs and charities are a very important aspect of any PR campaign, though just one aspect of it, and it should come together with other approaches to the media and academic circles as well.

I was just commenting on the relative ease with which a government might be able to ban Bitcoin as a currency or commodity. I don't think it would be easy at all, actually.

Cheers,
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August 29, 2011, 03:42:37 PM
 #44

Update added to the original post.

Send your $6 worth of Bitcoins now to 1CEmUakCaR71BmELWJPg72QRYzUqEddNm6

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August 29, 2011, 03:50:09 PM
 #45

Send your $6 worth of Bitcoins now to 1CEmUakCaR71BmELWJPg72QRYzUqEddNm6

Roger I just donated 1 bitcoin.

We would be happy to setup an automated processing and receipt system for any charity that needs it.   We can give every donor a receipt for their tax purposes, and give the charity an itemized list of all donations.

Regarding the tax deduction, in the US anything you donate that has value, is tax deductible.  I give sofas and clothing to my local charity all the time, and get a deduction for it.  Especially if this "item of value" is immediately sold for dollars, then it clearly has value.




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August 29, 2011, 03:53:21 PM
 #46

Roger I just donated 1 bitcoin.

We would be happy to setup an automated processing and receipt system for any charity that needs it.   We can give every donor a receipt for their tax purposes, and give the charity an itemized list of all donations.

Regarding the tax deduction, in the US anything you donate that has value, is tax deductible.  I give sofas and clothing to my local charity all the time, and get a deduction for it.  Especially if this "item of value" is immediately sold for dollars, then it clearly has value.


GREAT!  Lets start contacting Charities now and get them setup with Bit-Pay or any other Bitcoin method they are interested in.
It is time to generate some super positive press about bitcoins!

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August 29, 2011, 03:56:03 PM
 #47

GREAT!  Lets start contacting Charities now and get them setup with Bit-Pay or any other Bitcoin method they are interested in.
It is time to generate some super positive press about bitcoins!

Agreed!  I will work on a proposal this afternoon that we can use.    I will email you in a few hours.

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August 29, 2011, 04:02:24 PM
 #48

I tried to read most of this before posting,

It seems we can solve some problems by accepting donations in cash or local currencies, giving out receipts, and when we are ready convert the cash to bitcoin and donate it.

In California it costs roughly $26 to start a (unincorporated) Non-Profit Organization. I have one already actually. Start one of these, accept donations and log them all per legal requirements, Purchase bitcoins with the cash raised and donate bitcoins to charity.
Then people can still get their tax right-offs, and you know that the money was truly handled correctly at least by penalty of US Law.
Use BlockExplorer for proof at the end.

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August 29, 2011, 11:15:43 PM
 #49

I just made a major announcement for this, in a new topic

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40137.0


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aq
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August 30, 2011, 12:19:04 AM
 #50

I just made a major announcement for this, in a new topic

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40137.0


Excellent work!

But does this mean, that every donated bitcoin is immediately sold on some exchange? That would mean if someone donates a large amount, it will crash the bitcoin price.
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August 30, 2011, 01:07:39 AM
 #51

I just made a major announcement for this, in a new topic

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40137.0


Excellent work!

But does this mean, that every donated bitcoin is immediately sold on some exchange? That would mean if someone donates a large amount, it will crash the bitcoin price.


I believe the charity will be able to choose what percent to keep in Bitcoins or exchange for a legacy currency.
As Bitcoins become more and more popular,  I suspect they will keep more and more of their Bitcoins in Bitcoins.

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August 30, 2011, 01:17:25 AM
 #52

I believe the charity will be able to choose what percent to keep in Bitcoins or exchange for a legacy currency.

Yes.  We can divide the funds into bitcoins and dollars, at the request of the Charity.






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August 30, 2011, 06:05:55 AM
 #53

So who still thinks it is a good idea to donate bitcoins to a fund that is not yet sure it will even find a proper place to send the money to, which is controlled by a guy who has lost 25k in bitcoins on an earlier occasion and is now linked to shady stuff involving child prostitution (I'm not saying he did anything, but it's definitely fishy enough for any charity organisation to never want anythong to do with it)?

NOT a member of the so called ''Bitcoin Foundation''. Choose Independence!

Donate to the BitKitty Foundation instead! -> 1Fd4yLneGmxRHnPi6WCMC2hAMzaWvDePF9 <-
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August 30, 2011, 06:20:01 AM
 #54

So who still thinks it is a good idea to donate bitcoins to a fund that is not yet sure it will even find a proper place to send the money to, which is controlled by a guy who has lost 25k in bitcoins on an earlier occasion and is now linked to shady stuff involving child prostitution (I'm not saying he did anything, but it's definitely fishy enough for any charity organisation to never want anythong to do with it)?

I'm the one running all of this,  and I have never been involved with any of the things you just mentioned.
So, YES,  I do still think it is a GREAT idea.

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August 30, 2011, 06:23:59 AM
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I'm the one running all of this,  and I have never been involved with any of the things you just mentioned.
So, YES,  I do still think it is a GREAT idea.

Yeah, but you're having the coins controlled by someone who thinks it's a girls fault if she gets raped and who is now linked to illegal acts in a place he is trying to go back to with bitcoin.

But ok, nice to know you endorse all of that.

NOT a member of the so called ''Bitcoin Foundation''. Choose Independence!

Donate to the BitKitty Foundation instead! -> 1Fd4yLneGmxRHnPi6WCMC2hAMzaWvDePF9 <-
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August 30, 2011, 06:54:16 AM
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Yeah, but you're having the coins controlled by someone who thinks it's a girls fault if she gets raped and who is now linked to illegal acts in a place he is trying to go back to with bitcoin.

But ok, nice to know you endorse all of that.

The coins are being held by MTGOX and I think you should look up the definition of "Non sequitur"
 (Latin for "it does not follow"), in formal logic, is an argument in which its conclusion does not follow from its premises

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August 30, 2011, 07:07:18 AM
 #57



The coins are being held by MTGOX

Your opening post states:

Bruce Wagner of onlyonetv.com has agreed to hold the funds in escrow until we reach $10,000 worth of BTC.

Once it is listed on the charity's website, Bruce will send out a press release to all the media contacts he has.
It should make major news headlines as well!

So you are working closely together with Bruce Wagner.

Quote
and I think you should look up the definition of "Non sequitur"
 (Latin for "it does not follow"), in formal logic, is an argument in which its conclusion does not follow from its premises

I think you should stop trying to find latin words to hide behind. Basically what you are saying is that you don't care Bruce thinks about rape and you don't care how he is linked to shady business, you will work with him as long as it serves what you feel is a beneficial purpose.

NOT a member of the so called ''Bitcoin Foundation''. Choose Independence!

Donate to the BitKitty Foundation instead! -> 1Fd4yLneGmxRHnPi6WCMC2hAMzaWvDePF9 <-
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August 30, 2011, 08:07:54 AM
 #58

So who still thinks it is a good idea to donate bitcoins to a fund that is not yet sure it will even find a proper place to send the money to, which is controlled by a guy who has lost 25k in bitcoins on an earlier occasion and is now linked to shady stuff involving child prostitution (I'm not saying he did anything, but it's definitely fishy enough for any charity organisation to never want anythong to do with it)?

I'm the one running all of this,  and I have never been involved with any of the things you just mentioned.
So, YES,  I do still think it is a GREAT idea.

MD: The opening to this thread stated that Bruce Wagner had been chosen to hold the coins in escrow.

Unfortunately since you opened this thread there have been some ... well, honestly, pretty distasteful developments with regards to Bruce's behavior and opinions. Including an article he wrote trying to argue that rape victims are the ones to blame for being raped.

You open a thread soliciting money. You state Bruce Wagner will hold the currency. That's what it says right in the opening post.

Your own words. "Bruce Wagner of onlyonetv.com has agreed to hold the funds in escrow until we reach $10,000 worth of BTC." They're still there. I just checked.

Given that your primary goal in getting charities to accept bitcoin is to garner positive publicity for Bitcoin, please do not attempt to ignore the issue. I am not accusing you of committing such behavior. I am not accusing you of condoning it. I know full well much of what I refer to here blew up around the forum after you created this thread. However the situation does now exist and it is probably quite relevant, and it does need to be addressed -- even if this is simply you posting a clear statement of what Bruce's involvement in this project is, and editing your first post if necessary to reflect that.

"MOOOOOOOM! SOME MYTHICAL WOLFBEAST GUY IS MAKING FUN OF ME ON THE INTERNET!!!!"
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September 01, 2011, 07:20:22 AM
 #59

In tonight's Bitcoin Brainstorming session,  we came up with an idea to make sure...
...

Speaking of the brainstorming session, I'd certainly be interested to know any details about it.  I'd be surprised if a lot of others here were not as well.  Who was present, in person or via vid, was it taped, etc.  That sort of thing.  It seems pretty clear that Bruce Wagner was a party and as you probably know there are a lot of questions about his character which have surfaced since the time of your post.

Thanks!

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September 01, 2011, 12:10:27 PM
 #60

In tonight's Bitcoin Brainstorming session,  we came up with an idea to make sure...
...

Speaking of the brainstorming session, I'd certainly be interested to know any details about it.  I'd be surprised if a lot of others here were not as well.  Who was present, in person or via vid, was it taped, etc.  That sort of thing.  It seems pretty clear that Bruce Wagner was a party and as you probably know there are a lot of questions about his character which have surfaced since the time of your post.

Thanks!

I'm aware of all the issues that have surfaced in regards to Bruce Wagner since my initial post.  He was in Toyko earlier this week,  and I had an informal dinner with him,  and a couple other Tokyo locals who are interested in Bitcoins.  For months,  every day, all day has been a Bitcoin brainstorming session.  I hope more great ideas will follow soon.  I am sure this charity idea is still a great one,  and I will work to see it through.

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