Bitcoin Forum
December 07, 2016, 08:42:38 AM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Transaction fee  (Read 7482 times)
StevenC
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 7


View Profile
March 01, 2011, 10:03:07 PM
 #21

Will my transaction remain with zero confirmations for the next ten blocks?

I think it would be at least 10 blocks;  your transaction may get stuck in a backlog of free transactions that can't all fit into the next block.  Which seems to be happening for real right now...
1481100158
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481100158

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481100158
Reply with quote  #2

1481100158
Report to moderator
1481100158
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481100158

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481100158
Reply with quote  #2

1481100158
Report to moderator
1481100158
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481100158

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481100158
Reply with quote  #2

1481100158
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
barbarousrelic
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 675


View Profile
March 01, 2011, 10:07:37 PM
 #22

Will my transaction remain with zero confirmations for the next ten blocks?

I think it would be at least 10 blocks;  your transaction may get stuck in a backlog of free transactions that can't all fit into the next block.  Which seems to be happening for real right now...

If this is the case, I don't see why any miners would have any incentive to process no-fee transactions. If they get the new-block 50BTC regardless, they lose nothing by requiring fees and can potentially gain.

Do not waste your time debating whether Bitcoin can work. It does work.

"Early adopters will profit" is not a sufficient condition to classify something as a pyramid or Ponzi scheme. If it was, Apple and Microsoft stock are Ponzi schemes.

There is no such thing as "market manipulation." There is only buying and selling.
jgarzik
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1470


View Profile
March 01, 2011, 10:16:17 PM
 #23

How does this work exactly? Say I send a transaction without a fee, and the next ten blocks are all generated by miners who require fees. Will my transaction remain with zero confirmations for the next ten blocks?

That is correct.


Jeff Garzik, bitcoin core dev team and BitPay engineer; opinions are my own, not my employer.
Donations / tip jar: 1BrufViLKnSWtuWGkryPsKsxonV2NQ7Tcj
barbarousrelic
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 675


View Profile
March 02, 2011, 06:05:41 PM
 #24

How does this work exactly? Say I send a transaction without a fee, and the next ten blocks are all generated by miners who require fees. Will my transaction remain with zero confirmations for the next ten blocks?

That is correct.


So why does any miner accept transactions without a fee? They gain nothing by accepting these transactions and lose nothing by requiring a transaction fee.

Do not waste your time debating whether Bitcoin can work. It does work.

"Early adopters will profit" is not a sufficient condition to classify something as a pyramid or Ponzi scheme. If it was, Apple and Microsoft stock are Ponzi schemes.

There is no such thing as "market manipulation." There is only buying and selling.
mndrix
Michael Hendricks
VIP
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 447


View Profile
March 02, 2011, 06:33:20 PM
 #25

So why does any miner accept transactions without a fee? They gain nothing by accepting these transactions and lose nothing by requiring a transaction fee.

Miners gain broader Bitcoin usage by accepting free transactions into their blocks.  Broad usage should translate into higher Bitcoin prices and higher mining profits.
Cusipzzz
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 300


View Profile
March 02, 2011, 06:36:26 PM
 #26

also, miners send transactions too. Call it professional courtesy from whomever gets the next block Smiley

http://BTCSportsBet.com - The most complete bitcoin Sportsbook - All games from pro and college sports, Champions League, E-Sports, and reduced juice as well!
Groc
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 111



View Profile WWW
March 04, 2011, 11:08:52 PM
 #27

Is there any incentive at all to pay transaction fees if the block size is less than its maximum size? If the block is less than the maximum size, won't all transactions be included in the block regardless of fees paid?

Some miners are not putting transactions in if there is no fee. I presume this is to incentivise fees.
Say I send a transaction without a fee, and the next ten blocks are all generated by miners who require fees.

Is there different software for miners?

AMHash
ASICMINERROCKMINER ● Buy from: AMHash (20 Th/s min) ● Hashie (20 Gh/s min + 10 Gh/s free) ● Havelock (1 Gh/s min)
Cloud-mining contracts: 0.0012 BTC per Gh ● Maintenance fee: $0.001551 per Gh per day ● Upto 6% Christmas Bonus
freeman
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 25



View Profile
March 05, 2011, 05:09:07 PM
 #28


Is there different software for miners?


Most people use the standard version but not all do.  I'm pretty ArtForz has his own version and others do too.
Only-One Bit Coiner
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 42



View Profile
March 05, 2011, 06:39:20 PM
 #29

pools

One can create an alternative pool without fees, pools are uncontrollable.
LMGTFY
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644



View Profile
March 05, 2011, 07:37:36 PM
 #30

One can create an alternative pool without fees, pools are uncontrollable.
Sure. But would you want to join such a pool, if it was competing with pools that did levy transaction fees? Given a choice between a share of 50 BTC or a share of 50 + 0.5 (say) BTC, I'd prefer to go with the pool that levied fees.

This space intentionally left blank.
FreeMoney
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


Strength in numbers


View Profile WWW
March 05, 2011, 07:45:44 PM
 #31

One can create an alternative pool without fees, pools are uncontrollable.
Sure. But would you want to join such a pool, if it was competing with pools that did levy transaction fees? Given a choice between a share of 50 BTC or a share of 50 + 0.5 (say) BTC, I'd prefer to go with the pool that levied fees.

You can't 'levy' fees. A fee is either attached or it is not. Rejecting no-fee transactions does not make you more in fees. A pool that includes some free tx does not give up any fees that are attached to other tx.

Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.
LMGTFY
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644



View Profile
March 05, 2011, 08:02:25 PM
 #32

One can create an alternative pool without fees, pools are uncontrollable.
Sure. But would you want to join such a pool, if it was competing with pools that did levy transaction fees? Given a choice between a share of 50 BTC or a share of 50 + 0.5 (say) BTC, I'd prefer to go with the pool that levied fees.

You can't 'levy' fees. A fee is either attached or it is not. Rejecting no-fee transactions does not make you more in fees. A pool that includes some free tx does not give up any fees that are attached to other tx.
Poor choice of words on my part. I'm not sure I get the second part, however. If one pool ("free pool") doesn't reject any transactions, it will get some transaction fees. However, if another pool ("non-free pool") does reject fee-less transactions, it'll (a) ensure that it gets a fee from every transaction it handles, and (b) it'll leave fee-free transactions for "free pool" to handle. Put another way, we know that every block generated by "non-free pool" is going to have transaction fees in addition to the 50 BTC. We don't that that's the case for "free pool": sometimes there will be transaction fees, sometimes not. Or am I missing something?

This space intentionally left blank.
FreeMoney
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


Strength in numbers


View Profile WWW
March 05, 2011, 08:11:02 PM
 #33

One can create an alternative pool without fees, pools are uncontrollable.
Sure. But would you want to join such a pool, if it was competing with pools that did levy transaction fees? Given a choice between a share of 50 BTC or a share of 50 + 0.5 (say) BTC, I'd prefer to go with the pool that levied fees.

You can't 'levy' fees. A fee is either attached or it is not. Rejecting no-fee transactions does not make you more in fees. A pool that includes some free tx does not give up any fees that are attached to other tx.
Poor choice of words on my part. I'm not sure I get the second part, however. If one pool ("free pool") doesn't reject any transactions, it will get some transaction fees. However, if another pool ("non-free pool") does reject fee-less transactions, it'll (a) ensure that it gets a fee from every transaction it handles, and (b) it'll leave fee-free transactions for "free pool" to handle. Put another way, we know that every block generated by "non-free pool" is going to have transaction fees in addition to the 50 BTC. We don't that that's the case for "free pool": sometimes there will be transaction fees, sometimes not. Or am I missing something?

I don't think any miner will ever put free tx in before fee tx. So say 1000 tx fit in a block and there are 2000tx waiting that have fees both miners will include the exact same set of tx. But if there are only 600 tx with fees then one will include only those 600 and the other will include those 600 plus 400 free tx. Both miners will receive the exact same amount of fees.

I suppose things change a little in 120 years when there is no per block reward. Some miners might wait to search for a block until there was a fee tx and some might start "for charity" as soon as there was any tx at all.

Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.
LMGTFY
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644



View Profile
March 06, 2011, 12:57:14 PM
 #34

I don't think any miner will ever put free tx in before fee tx. So say 1000 tx fit in a block and there are 2000tx waiting that have fees both miners will include the exact same set of tx. But if there are only 600 tx with fees then one will include only those 600 and the other will include those 600 plus 400 free tx. Both miners will receive the exact same amount of fees.

I suppose things change a little in 120 years when there is no per block reward. Some miners might wait to search for a block until there was a fee tx and some might start "for charity" as soon as there was any tx at all.
Got it (I think!) Rather than increasing the coins available to the "non-free pool" at the expense of "free pool", the effect of non-free pool's rejection of fee-free transactions will be to increase the waiting time for fee-free txs before they're confirmed. (Which should lead to more tx fees, which in turn will benefit all miners/pools). Thanks for your patience!

This space intentionally left blank.
FreeMoney
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


Strength in numbers


View Profile WWW
March 06, 2011, 05:34:19 PM
 #35

I don't think any miner will ever put free tx in before fee tx. So say 1000 tx fit in a block and there are 2000tx waiting that have fees both miners will include the exact same set of tx. But if there are only 600 tx with fees then one will include only those 600 and the other will include those 600 plus 400 free tx. Both miners will receive the exact same amount of fees.

I suppose things change a little in 120 years when there is no per block reward. Some miners might wait to search for a block until there was a fee tx and some might start "for charity" as soon as there was any tx at all.
Got it (I think!) Rather than increasing the coins available to the "non-free pool" at the expense of "free pool", the effect of non-free pool's rejection of fee-free transactions will be to increase the waiting time for fee-free txs before they're confirmed. (Which should lead to more tx fees, which in turn will benefit all miners/pools). Thanks for your patience!

No problem, glad you got it.

Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.
Groc
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 111



View Profile WWW
March 07, 2011, 03:42:49 PM
 #36


I don't think any miner will ever put free tx in before fee tx. ...
How do miners have a choice to process fee transactions first?
When I set my client to generate coins (/ blocks as I understand it) there is no option for me to work only on fee transactions/blocks. 

AMHash
ASICMINERROCKMINER ● Buy from: AMHash (20 Th/s min) ● Hashie (20 Gh/s min + 10 Gh/s free) ● Havelock (1 Gh/s min)
Cloud-mining contracts: 0.0012 BTC per Gh ● Maintenance fee: $0.001551 per Gh per day ● Upto 6% Christmas Bonus
LMGTFY
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644



View Profile
March 07, 2011, 03:47:14 PM
 #37


I don't think any miner will ever put free tx in before fee tx. ...
How do miners have a choice to process fee transactions first?
When I set my client to generate coins (/ blocks as I understand it) there is no option for me to work only on fee transactions/blocks. 
The person writing the code for a miner would write it so that their miner preferred fee-bearing transactions.

As far as I know, none of the publicly available miners have this as an option yet.

This space intentionally left blank.
Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!