Governments will want their TAX ??? The solution is obvious but scary.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

Nuclear cannot substitute fossil fuels, because fossil fuels are easily transported, hence we use them to transport stuff.  Until someone developes a battery with the same energy density, ease of recharge, and low cost of a conventional fuel tank, no other energy source will substitute for oil, upon which all developed nations are critically dependent.

Nuclear could produce hydrogen which would allow all conventional means of transportation to still exist. Just stick two electrodes into water. If we would run out of nuclear fuel well before we run out of hydrogen from water.(preferably sea water, cause we need the fresh water)

A from scratch nuclear hydrogen generator could make massive amounts of hydrogen because it could use heat from the nuclear reactor directly plus electricity generated and modern metallic catalysts.  While I think battery electric vehicles will advance enough to be usable in the next few years (mostly range issues currently), hydrogen fueled cars using internal combustion engines or fuel cells could replace gasoline in many applications. 

If we put the effort into it, nuclear could displace a substantial amount of fossil fuels.  That effort is not insurmountable, but would take five to ten years with a Manhattan Project level effort. 

I'm with you, it's just too bad this Japan crisis has got everyone so scared about nuclear power. Don't get me wrong it's got the worst potential damage but things like the BP oil spill are way more common and horrible in a slightly less scary / no zombies type of way.

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[em3rgentOrdr]

Governments will want their TAX The solution is obvious but scary.

Oh Dear.  I hope the solution doesn't involve forking the bitcoin client into one that automatically sends a portion of every transaction to your friendly neighborhood gang, cause that's the only obvious solution I can think of. 

[dbitcoin]

Why all think only about oil?  Too much noise from media maybe?

There are large reserves of natural gas and coal.
Coal can be very effective and environmentally friendly to convert to natural gas, using new technology.
Coal even cheaper than oil (at current market price) and more environmentally friendly.
Of proven coal reserves at current consumption rate will be enough for at least 120 years.
There is only one problem for some western countries: the Middle East countries do not have coal, and there is not so much coal in Africa.

[deadlizard]

current consumption rate

The human obsession with growth renders any argument taking into account current consumption rates invalid.

it's 11:59 on plant earth

[dbitcoin]

current consumption rate

The human obsession with growth renders any argument taking into account current consumption rates invalid.

it's 11:59 on plant earth

proven coal reserves

I am sure that the real reserves are much larger.

[deadlizard]

current consumption rate

The human obsession with growth renders any argument taking into account current consumption rates invalid.

it's 11:59 on plant earth

proven coal reserves

I am sure that the real reserves are much larger.

Thats what they said about oil in the early 20th century when they used the current consumption argument to claim we had thousands of years worth of it left

[wb3]

Consumption Rate is part of the equation but once on the downside, you can never reach the peak again.

I don't know much about Coal Reserves, but I do know we don't drive our cars and airplanes on it. It might be able to supply electric plants for a while for electricity. But I must assume, that since basic metals such as copper have passed its peak, coal must be close or has already passed it.

But Coal didn't get us here, Oil did, so once Oil goes so does society as we know it.

[MoonShadow]

Consumption Rate is part of the equation but once on the downside, you can never reach the peak again.

I don't know much about Coal Reserves, but I do know we don't drive our cars and airplanes on it. It might be able to supply electric plants for a while for electricity. But I must assume, that since basic metals such as copper have passed its peak, coal must be close or has already passed it.

But Coal didn't get us here, Oil did, so once Oil goes so does society as we know it.

We are not past the peak in copper.  The prices for copper are more volatile than simply the cost of production, and very little of it is consumed in industry.  Most of it still exists in a refined form within electrical conduits everywhere.  The big cost driver for copper over the last decade is the increases in the construction demands of China and India.

[wb3]

Consumption Rate is part of the equation but once on the downside, you can never reach the peak again.

I don't know much about Coal Reserves, but I do know we don't drive our cars and airplanes on it. It might be able to supply electric plants for a while for electricity. But I must assume, that since basic metals such as copper have passed its peak, coal must be close or has already passed it.

But Coal didn't get us here, Oil did, so once Oil goes so does society as we know it.

We are not past the peak in copper.  The prices for copper are more volatile than simply the cost of production, and very little of it is consumed in industry.  Most of it still exists in a refined form within electrical conduits everywhere.  The big cost driver for copper over the last decade is the increases in the construction demands of China and India.

Actually, we are, but unlike Oil, Copper is re-cycled and can sustain a market much longer. When it becomes a little bit more expensive, it will be like gold and be 80% recycled.

If the price keeps going the way it does, all people with forclosure proceedings could just strip the Electrical Wire out of their house, sell it and pay off the Bank. 

Here is some interesting reading: Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert_peak_theory

It covers peaks on many materials.

[dbitcoin]

current consumption rate

The human obsession with growth renders any argument taking into account current consumption rates invalid.

it's 11:59 on plant earth

proven coal reserves

I am sure that the real reserves are much larger.

Thats what they said about oil in the early 20th century when they used the current consumption argument to claim we had thousands of years worth of it left

Actually we do not have thousands of years.
50-70 years probably enough for completely switch to electric power in most areas.
So we a see more nuclear/gas/coal plants in the near 20 years (this already planed in most countries, no mater what 'greens' think and want).
But I hope ITER project will be successful in the same 20 years period.

[MoonShadow]

Consumption Rate is part of the equation but once on the downside, you can never reach the peak again.

I don't know much about Coal Reserves, but I do know we don't drive our cars and airplanes on it. It might be able to supply electric plants for a while for electricity. But I must assume, that since basic metals such as copper have passed its peak, coal must be close or has already passed it.

But Coal didn't get us here, Oil did, so once Oil goes so does society as we know it.

We are not past the peak in copper.  The prices for copper are more volatile than simply the cost of production, and very little of it is consumed in industry.  Most of it still exists in a refined form within electrical conduits everywhere.  The big cost driver for copper over the last decade is the increases in the construction demands of China and India.

Actually, we are, but unlike Oil, Copper is re-cycled and can sustain a market much longer. When it becomes a little bit more expensive, it will be like gold and be 80% recycled.

If the price keeps going the way it does, all people with forclosure proceedings could just strip the Electrical Wire out of their house, sell it and pay off the Bank. 

Here is some interesting reading: Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert_peak_theory

It covers peaks on many materials.

I'm aware of the science, and I'm telling you that we have not hit that peak.  Hubbert's Peak has limited applications to resources that have a significant recycle use anyway, because it relates only to the economics of resource extraction.

And if it even apraaches the spot price in silver many of the major uses of copper (electrically related mostly) can be easily repalced by other materials.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

Oil is renewable you're just not patient enough.

[steelhouse]

http://www.freetochoose.tv/

[deadlizard]

current consumption rate

The human obsession with growth renders any argument taking into account current consumption rates invalid.

it's 11:59 on plant earth

proven coal reserves

I am sure that the real reserves are much larger.

Thats what they said about oil in the early 20th century when they used the current consumption argument to claim we had thousands of years worth of it left

Actually we do not have thousands of years.

My point exactly. current consumption is highly variable and we can't count on unknown reserves.
Imagine everyone decides coal is the answer. The extraction and consumption of it will rise and bring your estimate down to within our lifetimes.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

I think it will somewhat take care of it's self.
At the point that conventional fuels are so expensive there is a huge profit in alternatives private businesses will focus on them.
Of course they're going to see it coming and head in that direction first.

[wb3]

Hate to bring this up, because it will change the price.

A gallon of vegetable oil is now cheaper in some parts of the country than gas. Why the big deal?

Because now people with Diesel Engines can buy new vegetable oil and use it for gas cheaper than diesel.

Myth-busters already did the experiment. They took a un-modified diesel car and poured used vegetable oil (that they got for free from a restaurant). The car ran great but they said it smelled like french fries.

Point being, it won't be long before others catch on, and havoc will ensue.

Was Rudolf Diesel ahead of his time or what?  Finally going to run the engine with what it was designed to use. Oil companies did a good job hiding it for awhile but it is out now.

[BitterTea]

Does the oil come from vegetables subsidized by the U.S. government, e.g. corn?

[wb3]

Does the oil come from vegetables subsidized by the U.S. government, e.g. corn?

I guess in a small part yes, but not a large part. Most corn subsides are not to grow corn, but to "not" grow corn. Commodities are a complicated business if you want corn to get around the world. If it was just a local business, you wouldn't need a commodities market.

Funny, Restaurants and Chains used to pay for people to dispose of their used oil, now people will be picking it up for free, until the Chains realize they can sell it.

[MoonShadow]

Does the oil come from vegetables subsidized by the U.S. government, e.g. corn?

I guess in a small part yes, but not a large part. Most corn subsides are not to grow corn, but to "not" grow corn. Commodities are a complicated business if you want corn to get around the world. If it was just a local business, you wouldn't need a commodities market.

Funny, Restaurants and Chains used to pay for people to dispose of their used oil, now people will be picking it up for free, until the Chains realize they can sell it.

Too late.  I had a sidejob of collecting WVO from a local bar for over a year, but that ended about three years ago.  Now you can't even buy their WVO, because most of them have exclusive collection contracts.  Maybe that is just around here, though.  I live in Kentucky, where half of the vehicles on the road are some variation of a truck, and half of those are diesel.  Almost no one uses heat oil to heat their homes, but a crapload of the stuff is still sold around here.

Did you know that the red dye the feds put into heat oil (untaxed #2 diesel) can be filtered out pretty effectively with a filter that uses a roll of toilet paper as the element?

[MoonShadow]

Hate to bring this up, because it will change the price.

A gallon of vegetable oil is now cheaper in some parts of the country than gas. Why the big deal?

Because now people with Diesel Engines can buy new vegetable oil and use it for gas cheaper than diesel.

Myth-busters already did the experiment. They took a un-modified diesel car and poured used vegetable oil (that they got for free from a restaurant). The car ran great but they said it smelled like french fries.

Point being, it won't be long before others catch on, and havoc will ensue.

Was Rudolf Diesel ahead of his time or what?  Finally going to run the engine with what it was designed to use. Oil companies did a good job hiding it for awhile but it is out now.

With virgin oil, the buyer has to choose between using the oil as fuel for a diesel truck or as fuel for his body.