The current Paypal / Ebay fiasco

[Blackout]

In an earlier thread, it was indicated that Ebay was pulling BTC listings - they are no longer doing that, they are allowing them, but it doesn't really matter since the risk is far too great even though there are many honest newbie buyers who wish to purchase bitcoins at a premium on ebay, there are more frauds than honest people, and feedback doesn't help.

Paypal ALWAYS sides on the side of the buyer, so the current scam is to brute force hack accounts on ebay and buy up bitcoins.  Since the bitcoin transfer is NON reversible, after the honest btc seller on ebay gets the paypal money and sends the bitcoins, the non honest paypal / ebay user then says "oh my account was hacked! Sure, some accounts were hacked... and many were not - but they go on a btc buying spree to LOOK like they were hacked fully knowing that paypal will reverse the charges.

So person goes bitcoin buying spree, the tells ebay/paypal (same company) "oh no I was hacked"
Person now has all the bitcoins, and gets their money back. Seller of bitcoins is screwed.

BTC seller is f&#ked because A> paypal ALWAYS sides with the buyer. B> bitcoins are long gone and you are out of luck and they just take the money right out of your account and may even freeze it.  Ebay was originally pulling bitcoin listings but it appears they are allowing it now, but almost ALL the buyers are scammers either hacking the account or pretending to be hacked.

EVEN if you sell a physical item with the bitcoins, and say mail a piece of paper to the address that is a Bitcoin instruction booklet and get confirmed delivery - and in that booklet you include a unique phrase that must be emailed to you for the person to receive the BTC (as a bonus) you are selling the book, it seems paypal doesn't care.

[marks1976]

You don't have to go to Ebay/Paypal to find scammers.  Scammers find you even on this forum.  Good luck.

[Stefanie Andrea]

I tried to sell on Ebay twice & two people bought my stuff with Hacked accounts. But eBay canceled both of them.

[Blackout]

Hopefully before you sent the BTC?

Problem is then you get a bunch of chargebacks and paypal will get on your ass.  I have stopped
selling bitcoins on ebay it's just a mess, even with my idea of selling a physical book that must be received with a special code to get the "free" included coins, almost all the bidders are hacked accounts because they are willing to outbid normal real people in hopes you will just send the BTC.

It's a shame because there is a real lucrative market but it is being outdone by hackers.

[titbb]

Until they use a system like BitMarket i think it will never work on ebay directly.

Maybe we should setup a Paypal/ Google Checkout system but just for BTC?

[netrin]

I think the OTC/PGP web of trust model is a pretty good start. While, it still requires diligent human confirmation, I so far trust the small hand full of people with whom I've traded and would trust most of those my trusted friends trust. This could perhaps be expanded upon.

[nefanon]

Hopefully before you sent the BTC?

Problem is then you get a bunch of chargebacks and paypal will get on your ass.  I have stopped
selling bitcoins on ebay it's just a mess, even with my idea of selling a physical book that must be received with a special code to get the "free" included coins, almost all the bidders are hacked accounts because they are willing to outbid normal real people in hopes you will just send the BTC.

It's a shame because there is a real lucrative market but it is being outdone by hackers.

Were you able to prevent chargebacks by this method?

Would the buyer be able to use a chargeback if you used Delivery Confirmation with Signature Confirmation?

According to this eBay Guide:
Delivery Confirmation only gives you the date, ZIP Code and the time your article was delivered (or the date and time of attempted deliveries). It isn't a legal "proof of delivery," which requires a signature (like, say, Certified letters) - but it is sufficient for eBay, Paypal and most delivery disputes. In fact, eBay recommends that all mailed packages use Delivery Confirmation, require insurance, and should use signature delivery on higher value items.  I add that you should use SCAN, too.

[Blackout]

They still charged back - the buyer said she just signed for it but never ordered the book and would gladly return it.......

Now, I didn't send the coins, so i was ok...  the first page of the book is a print out with a unique
phrase... that phrase was never e-mailed to me - so i assume she was telling the truth....
the person who ordered mailed me a wallet address,and I said the coins would be sent went they sent the confirmation phrase.... which never came, and then a charge back came...

protected me from losing coins but still a pain in my ass.....

[fuzzywuzzy]

i was also scammed in chargeback fraud  on ebay . Only lost 1.5 bitcoins so no big deal but i wont sell them there again. And i prefer to call the fraudsters on ebay criminals, not hackers but i guess they can be both . Bitcoins sure seem to bring them out of the woodwork though.
171 ebay ratings never had a chargeback till i sold bitcoin

[Blackout]

Exactly...

What sucks is that there are people who want to REALLY buy bitcoins who are not fraudsters and willing to pay a premium but they can't because the fraudsters outbid or use the buy it now... I went as high as $27 buy it now for one BTC book including a bonus btc and again, the phrase was not sent so I never sent the BTC... it starts making my perfect feedback account look shitty.

We need some alternative to sell btc to newbs easily over the net.

[djelusion]

Exactly...

What sucks is that there are people who want to REALLY buy bitcoins who are not fraudsters and willing to pay a premium but they can't because the fraudsters outbid or use the buy it now... I went as high as $27 buy it now for one BTC book including a bonus btc and again, the phrase was not sent so I never sent the BTC... it starts making my perfect feedback account look shitty.

We need some alternative to sell btc to newbs easily over the net.

Really?? If I ever buy a bitcoin it will be less than market value.. Anyone who "Pays" premium dont know what theyre about to remorse. now BTC is worth about 8 bucks! and the way the mining is panning out I just pray I can make my electricity costs..

[Blackout]

Right but there are people who read an article or something or for whatever reason they want a bitcoin right now and they
then see how ridiculous it is to get one.....  exchanges... bank accounts... exchanges between exchanges... and don't want to deal with any of that so they go on ebay, and they will pay twice the amount or more to have it fast, if they even have an idea what the amount is worth.

[Oldminer]

Just don't deal with ebay or paypal. Problem solved.

[Blackout]

Problem not solved. Huge market avoided...

Problem solved = a way to sell those bitcoins to that market safely.

[nefanon]

Just don't deal with ebay or paypal. Problem solved.

Yeah, I completely disagree. Unless new members can -easily- and -quickly- get bitcoins, it's going to stay underground and unknown.

[travistouchdown]

I think that buying Bitcoins on eBay is a terrible idea. Many reason's mainly fraud and security.

[Cato]

Meh, I've seen a few "hybrid" listings on eBay: typically a small amount of silver (or other precious metal) plus one or more Bitcoins. I have yet to find a listing that reflects recent BTC exchange rates.

[Blackout]

This is the point Cato

You can command quiet a premium for convenience to the 'regular joe people' user base.
They heard about bitcoin in a passing news or magazine article and want one and no way are they going to
start mining or transferring funds through three different places to get one so where do they go?

Ebay?

"I want to get some of these."

Just how Disney World charges $25 for a .50 shirt and people gladly pay it.

The definition of a good sale is when both parties are happy.

It would be foolish for a person aware of current market rate and knowledgeable about bitcoin to
go through ebay.  That is not the market.  If you're watching any of the rates or charts pages you are not the market I am talking about.

[Blackout]

In a stunning update to this story, paypal has surprised by by actually refuting a bitcoin chargeback and using
the blockchain + sent letter as evidence. 

So the money was deposited back into my paypal even though it could be pulled back out, and they are disputing the bank.

I am very surprised.  I do have a very good history with them and about a 7 year+ account.

[nefanon]

In a stunning update to this story, paypal has surprised by by actually refuting a bitcoin chargeback and using
the blockchain + sent letter as evidence. 

So the money was deposited back into my paypal even though it could be pulled back out, and they are disputing the bank.

I am very surprised.  I do have a very good history with them and about a 7 year+ account.

Holy shit, this could be big! Please give more details!