The current Paypal / Ebay fiasco

[Nic Dooce]

The BTC has to be more usefull. We got to find a way to secure the transactions between the peoples who don't know each others.

[RunningTotal]

In a stunning update to this story, paypal has surprised by by actually refuting a bitcoin chargeback and using
the blockchain + sent letter as evidence. 

So the money was deposited back into my paypal even though it could be pulled back out, and they are disputing the bank.

I am very surprised.  I do have a very good history with them and about a 7 year+ account.

Well, you seem got REALLY lucky and it's still hard to believe.
Our company is now moving live the new BitCoin/Paypal exchange with auto-tracking of both BitCoin an dPaypal payments (otcexchange.net). We've been digging for months and found no reliable way to fight against CC/ACH chargebacks on Paypal transactions. Having that said we've dediced to go for invite-only community on the marketplace...

If PayPal actually sided with payment recipient, that makes a HUGE difference, really. And a big hope..

[ghgr]

In a similar thread in this section I've presented a way to get Bitcoins and paying by Paypal. In order to prevent fraud, a PIN code (free) is sent to the customer's mobile phone. It could be interesting for newbies and people needing immediate bitcoins at a premium.
The thread is at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38873.0 and so far customers are satisfied

[vvinogradoff]

In a similar thread in this section I've presented a way to get Bitcoins and paying by Paypal. In order to prevent fraud, a PIN code (free) is sent to the customer's mobile phone. It could be interesting for newbies and people needing immediate bitcoins at a premium.
The thread is at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38873.0 and so far customers are satisfied

I may be wrong here, however there were times I used to sell on ebay through paypal. From what I got there, the main issue with scammers is not about anonymous guys playing with a bunch of stolen CCs. A person may scam you just because there's an opportunity to do so. He/she could be 100% real, with confirmed address, phone and whatever else. Still if there is a safe and painless way to rollback credit card spendings, many of them will surely go this way.
The bottomline as I see it - verifying buyer identity, intention and consciousness could never protect from further chargebacks if there's no legal obsticles for a person to perform it.

[nefanon]

I'm keeping a close eye on this thread

[Asymptote]

It's only a matter of time until ebay accepts Bitcoins for payment

[vvinogradoff]

It's only a matter of time until ebay accepts Bitcoins for payment

Ebay will never accept any irreversible payment methods since they're working hard day and night to protect buyers (in order to convince them to shop more and more).

[nefanon]

In a stunning update to this story, paypal has surprised by by actually refuting a bitcoin chargeback and using
the blockchain + sent letter as evidence. 

So the money was deposited back into my paypal even though it could be pulled back out, and they are disputing the bank.

I am very surprised.  I do have a very good history with them and about a 7 year+ account.

any updates??

[ThePiachu]

Well, it probably is possible to make a service that will be able to "reverse" some payments by sending them back to the buyer. I`ve seen something like that somewhere on this forum.

[Blackout]

In a similar thread in this section I've presented a way to get Bitcoins and paying by Paypal. In order to prevent fraud, a PIN code (free) is sent to the customer's mobile phone. It could be interesting for newbies and people needing immediate bitcoins at a premium.
The thread is at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38873.0 and so far customers are satisfied

How can you be sure that the phone number is accurate? Paypal doesn't give you they phone number nor ebay.

[happycat85]

I had some luck with paypal rebuking some one of my customer's "unauthorized charge" attempts. I had someone buy around $750 worth of BTC over the span of two months. One day I logged in and there were 60+ unauthorized charges from this person. I didn't refund the money, instead I waited so that paypal would have to review it. Turns out he was using his own account and marked all the charges as unauthorized, though paypal determined that the charges were legitimate and that no suspicious activity happened on his account. I was rather surprised. I'm not sure if it helped but my account is 9 years old, good standing, and a premium/business account.

At any rate, I'd like to get whitelisted if anyone can do so 

[RunningTotal]

I had some luck with paypal rebuking some one of my customer's "unauthorized charge" attempts.

Thanks, happycat85. Seems like we've got one more confirmation of things going the right way with Paypal. sometimes at least.

[Blackout]

In a stunning update to this story, paypal has surprised by by actually refuting a bitcoin chargeback and using
the blockchain + sent letter as evidence. 

So the money was deposited back into my paypal even though it could be pulled back out, and they are disputing the bank.

I am very surprised.  I do have a very good history with them and about a 7 year+ account.

any updates??

I have not heard anything back from paypal.  I imagine disputing the bank takes 30 to 90 days.

[Blackout]

I had some luck with paypal rebuking some one of my customer's "unauthorized charge" attempts. I had someone buy around $750 worth of BTC over the span of two months. One day I logged in and there were 60+ unauthorized charges from this person. I didn't refund the money, instead I waited so that paypal would have to review it. Turns out he was using his own account and marked all the charges as unauthorized, though paypal determined that the charges were legitimate and that no suspicious activity happened on his account. I was rather surprised. I'm not sure if it helped but my account is 9 years old, good standing, and a premium/business account.

At any rate, I'd like to get whitelisted if anyone can do so 

What do you mean you didn't refund the money?  Paypal just takes it during dispute.  They will even go into your bank account.  I am assuming then you had already withdrawn everything and had no linked bank account or no funds in the account?

[vvinogradoff]

What do you mean you didn't refund the money?  Paypal just takes it during dispute.  They will even go into your bank account.  I am assuming then you had already withdrawn everything and had no linked bank account or no funds in the account?

Paypal policy does not allow them to go into the bank account. At least in US,  probably that violates some of fed laws or something. In case of negative balance they keep calling your cell and landphone if they have it on file, send paper mails to your billing address and try to freak you out with dozen of other ways. They even send a report to all three agencies (Equifax, Experian, and Transunion) in order to demolish your credit score. Still they never go to your bank account by themselves, you've to authorize each and every transaction.

The problem may only arise if you have a subscription active - they'll charge a subscription's full amount from your CC/BA, take out what's theirs and send only a remainder piece to the requesting merchant. Most probably such action will result to your subscription being cancelled by the merchant due to 'unpaid' event and whatever service you're subscribed on you'll loose access to.

[Blackout]

In a similar thread in this section I've presented a way to get Bitcoins and paying by Paypal. In order to prevent fraud, a PIN code (free) is sent to the customer's mobile phone. It could be interesting for newbies and people needing immediate bitcoins at a premium.
The thread is at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38873.0 and so far customers are satisfied

I may be wrong here, however there were times I used to sell on ebay through paypal. From what I got there, the main issue with scammers is not about anonymous guys playing with a bunch of stolen CCs. A person may scam you just because there's an opportunity to do so. He/she could be 100% real, with confirmed address, phone and whatever else. Still if there is a safe and painless way to rollback credit card spendings, many of them will surely go this way.
The bottomline as I see it - verifying buyer identity, intention and consciousness could never protect from further chargebacks if there's no legal obsticles for a person to perform it.

This is true as well.  There are some legit people who learned about bitcoins and buy and dispute.

The case I am currently in dispute with is only for a single bitcoin that I sold at a premium  I think the rate was 11 at the time and i sold for $20 maybe even $25.. to a member  with plenty of feedback...
 
This was before I had the idea of the physical book with a unique code in it.

After a week they charged back,  I told e-bay it seemed like he was willfully defrauding and showed all communication and screen grabs of the confirmed transaction and blockchain.

The money popped out.. was held... popped in.. they said they are disputing the bank with my evidence.  I was surprised.

We shall see.

See my other thread I am starting for those looking to buy and sell coins with paypal

The reliable buyer seller paypal thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=44767.msg534685#msg534685


kind of like the web of trust with out all the insane complication of gpg on #bitcoin-otc which is still loaded with fraudsters
anyway.

- Blackout

[ghgr]

In a similar thread in this section I've presented a way to get Bitcoins and paying by Paypal. In order to prevent fraud, a PIN code (free) is sent to the customer's mobile phone. It could be interesting for newbies and people needing immediate bitcoins at a premium.
The thread is at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38873.0 and so far customers are satisfied

How can you be sure that the phone number is accurate? Paypal doesn't give you they phone number nor ebay.

In a similar thread in this section I've presented a way to get Bitcoins and paying by Paypal. In order to prevent fraud, a PIN code (free) is sent to the customer's mobile phone. It could be interesting for newbies and people needing immediate bitcoins at a premium.
The thread is at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38873.0 and so far customers are satisfied

I may be wrong here, however there were times I used to sell on ebay through paypal. From what I got there, the main issue with scammers is not about anonymous guys playing with a bunch of stolen CCs. A person may scam you just because there's an opportunity to do so. He/she could be 100% real, with confirmed address, phone and whatever else. Still if there is a safe and painless way to rollback credit card spendings, many of them will surely go this way.
The bottomline as I see it - verifying buyer identity, intention and consciousness could never protect from further chargebacks if there's no legal obsticles for a person to perform it.

First my excuses for not answering these questions, I havent seen them until now.

I am sure that the mobile phone is accurate since I send a unique 5-digit PIN code to that number. This ensures that the user has physical access to the mobile phone.

Concerning the question about scammers that use their real, verified accounts, they will have a hard time trying to win the dispute. They are paying to belong to the Hall of Fame, which is public, and it's trivial to verify that. In addition, in the Paypal's receipt it's clearly stated what he is paying for: "Position in the Hall of Fame for the address ****** and amount **". And, in any case, the person who does that will be immediately banned from the service.

[Blackout]

In a similar thread in this section I've presented a way to get Bitcoins and paying by Paypal. In order to prevent fraud, a PIN code (free) is sent to the customer's mobile phone. It could be interesting for newbies and people needing immediate bitcoins at a premium.
The thread is at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38873.0 and so far customers are satisfied

How can you be sure that the phone number is accurate? Paypal doesn't give you they phone number nor ebay.

In a similar thread in this section I've presented a way to get Bitcoins and paying by Paypal. In order to prevent fraud, a PIN code (free) is sent to the customer's mobile phone. It could be interesting for newbies and people needing immediate bitcoins at a premium.
The thread is at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38873.0 and so far customers are satisfied

I may be wrong here, however there were times I used to sell on ebay through paypal. From what I got there, the main issue with scammers is not about anonymous guys playing with a bunch of stolen CCs. A person may scam you just because there's an opportunity to do so. He/she could be 100% real, with confirmed address, phone and whatever else. Still if there is a safe and painless way to rollback credit card spendings, many of them will surely go this way.
The bottomline as I see it - verifying buyer identity, intention and consciousness could never protect from further chargebacks if there's no legal obsticles for a person to perform it.

First my excuses for not answering these questions, I havent seen them until now.

I am sure that the mobile phone is accurate since I send a unique 5-digit PIN code to that number. This ensures that the user has physical access to the mobile phone.

Concerning the question about scammers that use their real, verified accounts, they will have a hard time trying to win the dispute. They are paying to belong to the Hall of Fame, which is public, and it's trivial to verify that. In addition, in the Paypal's receipt it's clearly stated what he is paying for: "Position in the Hall of Fame for the address ****** and amount **". And, in any case, the person who does that will be immediately banned from the service.

No, my point here is.. where are you getting the PHONE number from... how do you know the PHONE number belongs to the account holder?  So what if a hacker uses a pay as you go cell phone or something ? 
If you send a code to that phone sure you have a phone number but how do you know it is the real phone number of the person trying to buy with paypal?

[Pistachio]

Anyone try selling paper wallets pre-loaded with BTC through e-bay and paypal (by post only)? If you setup your auction with the usual "will only ship to verified paypal address", what problems could occur (or have you experienced)?

If paypal is no good on ebay for BTC, are there any other payment services that have a better track record?

[nefanon]

In a similar thread in this section I've presented a way to get Bitcoins and paying by Paypal. In order to prevent fraud, a PIN code (free) is sent to the customer's mobile phone. It could be interesting for newbies and people needing immediate bitcoins at a premium.
The thread is at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38873.0 and so far customers are satisfied

I may be wrong here, however there were times I used to sell on ebay through paypal. From what I got there, the main issue with scammers is not about anonymous guys playing with a bunch of stolen CCs. A person may scam you just because there's an opportunity to do so. He/she could be 100% real, with confirmed address, phone and whatever else. Still if there is a safe and painless way to rollback credit card spendings, many of them will surely go this way.
The bottomline as I see it - verifying buyer identity, intention and consciousness could never protect from further chargebacks if there's no legal obsticles for a person to perform it.

This is true as well.  There are some legit people who learned about bitcoins and buy and dispute.

The case I am currently in dispute with is only for a single bitcoin that I sold at a premium  I think the rate was 11 at the time and i sold for $20 maybe even $25.. to a member  with plenty of feedback...
 
This was before I had the idea of the physical book with a unique code in it.

After a week they charged back,  I told e-bay it seemed like he was willfully defrauding and showed all communication and screen grabs of the confirmed transaction and blockchain.

The money popped out.. was held... popped in.. they said they are disputing the bank with my evidence.  I was surprised.

We shall see.

See my other thread I am starting for those looking to buy and sell coins with paypal

The reliable buyer seller paypal thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=44767.msg534685#msg534685


kind of like the web of trust with out all the insane complication of gpg on #bitcoin-otc which is still loaded with fraudsters
anyway.

- Blackout

How did this turn out?