What's with all the haters?

[MoonShadow]

I'm either missing something, or we have been overrun with homophobes.  Why are there so many BruceWagner bashers lately?

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[greyhawk]

Sean, there is no trolling or character assassination going on. Everything is clearly laid out in court documents, news articles and quotes from Bruce himself. All of this is documented clearly here: http://buttcoin.org/has-bruce-wagner-pulled-off-the-financial-biggest-scam-on-the-bitcoin-community

[MoonShadow]

What is "SA"?

[lemonginger]

Something Awful....

Are you under a rock the past 6 months MoonShadow?

I don't think anyone cares that Bruce is gay, I think they care that not only is a convicted fraudster heavily promoting bitcoins, he may be involved in one of the biggest thefts of bitcoins.

[elggawf]

I'm either missing something, or we have been overrun with homophobes.  Why are there so many BruceWagner bashers lately?

I've only seen two people I'd describe as homophobes: nanaimogold (who unfortunately, it appears, may have been right all along, he just arrived at the correct conclusion in the wrong way) and warweed (who posted nanaimogold's talkgold thread and threw around homophobic language as well, including the thread title). Unless I'm mistaken, neither of them are goons.

Absolutely no one else that I'm aware of is bringing up any of this information because Bruce is gay - all this information is coming to light simply because Bruce's insistence on Pattaya, despite what it's known for, was a little weird... so people start digging.

It's not character assassination (the SA goons loved Bruce before all this came to light, and if he'd just let Pattaya go and then cruised down there before/after the conference to get his rocks off none of this would have come to light), no one's being paid by the government to dredge this stuff up, and I don't believe it's a deliberate attempt to trash the price of Bitcoins.

Frankly, I think all these repeated assertions that SA goons have had any control over the price at all are stupid as hell. Honestly, what the fuck have we built if it can't take the huffing and puffing of a few forum trolls telling everyone it's going to crash? All we've built is a giant house of cards, and we can't keep pretending it's a bustling and resilient market if anyone who just wants to watch the world burn can make one dumb post and send the value tumbling.

[tasarz]

I'm either missing something, or we have been overrun with homophobes.  Why are there so many BruceWagner bashers lately?

People are bashing Bruce Wagner because he has been convicted of fraud (go look at his thread, he admits it), and owes $300,000+.  There is also circumstantial evidence that both OnlyOneTv and MyBitCoin used the same obscure hosting site, and may in some way be related.  You don't have to be a homophobe to think that having a fraudster being the de facto public head of bitcoin is a bad idea.

[evolve]

it has absolutely nothing to do with him being gay; everybody is on him because hes a con man.

"... Defendant Bold Funding and Defendant Bruce Wagner did not possess a license to engage in the business of a mortgage broker, mortgage servicing company, or a mortgage company in Illinois. ... Defendant Bold Funding and Defendant Bruce Wagner received thousands of dollars from homeowners for the purpose of providing funding for them, but the Defendants did not provide such services and then retained these monies for their own use."

his victim list in the court docs is two pages long:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/63630294/Bruce-Wagner-Bold-Funding-Fraud-Judgement

[hugolp]

People are bashing Bruce Wagner because he has been convicted of fraud (go look at his thread, he admits it), and owes $300,000+.  There is also circumstantial evidence that both OnlyOneTv and MyBitCoin used the same obscure hosting site, and may in some way be related.  You don't have to be a homophobe to think that having a fraudster being the de facto public head of bitcoin is a bad idea.

Actually, its the other way around. Since the whole attack on BW started the MyBitcoin domain has been changed to point to a place to incriminate BW. It seems that the MyBitcoin scammers are using the whole BW drama to hide take attention away from themselves.

[lemonginger]

People are bashing Bruce Wagner because he has been convicted of fraud (go look at his thread, he admits it), and owes $300,000+.  There is also circumstantial evidence that both OnlyOneTv and MyBitCoin used the same obscure hosting site, and may in some way be related.  You don't have to be a homophobe to think that having a fraudster being the de facto public head of bitcoin is a bad idea.

Actually, its the other way around. Since the whole attack on BW started the MyBitcoin domain has been changed to point to a place to incriminate BW. It seems that the MyBitcoin scammers are using the whole BW drama to hide take attention away from themselves.

So you really think a multiple-time conman who also happened to be the biggest depositor in mybitcoin who also was the biggest hyper of mybitcoin who in the past had used the alias Tod Williams as a shill for fraudulent activitiy is all just coincidental. Very little chance IMHO that BW is not involved in mybitcoin somehow.

[hugolp]

So you really think a multiple-time conman who also happened to be the biggest depositor in mybitcoin who also was the biggest hyper of mybitcoin who in the past had used the alias Tod Williams as a shill for fraudulent activitiy is all just coincidental. Very little chance IMHO that BW is not involved in mybitcoin somehow.

I dont have an opinion on BW. I am just sure that with all the accusations that have been going around here there is something bigger going on.

I was just stating the fact that his statement is false. The address of MyBitcoin pointing to the same server as OnlyOneTv is a recent event, check it for yourself: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40417.msg492861#msg492861, so its a move clearly made to incriminate BW. Also, it was made in coordination with the acusations about BW being involved with MyBitcoin in this forum.

This does not mean that BW is an angel and is not guilty of other things, but the most logical conclussion is that the people behind MyBitcoin is trying to make people believe BW is behind MyBitcoin using the drama to take the heat away from them.

Also, you have the emails from Madhatter this morning advising BW to drop the whole thing if he does not want more attacks on him. BW refuses, and the whole drama happens.

[fcmatt]

People are bashing Bruce Wagner because he has been convicted of fraud (go look at his thread, he admits it), and owes $300,000+.  There is also circumstantial evidence that both OnlyOneTv and MyBitCoin used the same obscure hosting site, and may in some way be related.  You don't have to be a homophobe to think that having a fraudster being the de facto public head of bitcoin is a bad idea.

Actually, its the other way around. Since the whole attack on BW started the MyBitcoin domain has been changed to point to a place to incriminate BW. It seems that the MyBitcoin scammers are using the whole BW drama to hide take attention away from themselves.

For them to do such a thing after things were just quieting down about mybitcoin.com would be pretty
stupid. And if the "owner/admin" of mybitcoin decided to do such a thing it would show that he was the
scammer in order to create a plan to point blame at Bruce. Otherwise, why would a victim do such a thing
and rile the whole crap storm back up?

A hacker does not come back to a website to frame a person he does not give a rat's butt about.

[MoonShadow]

Something Awful....

Are you under a rock the past 6 months MoonShadow?

Maybe I'm just too old.

I don't think anyone cares that Bruce is gay, I think they care that not only is a convicted fraudster heavily promoting bitcoins, he may be involved in one of the biggest thefts of bitcoins.

Obviously some people do care if Bruce is battin' for the other team.  I see no evidence that he is a convicted fraudster, a civil suit is easy enough to lose.  Mismanagement is a valid cause for a class action suit, but it's not usually criminal.  Never attribute malice whenever incompetance is a reasonable explaination.  Again, a real con artist wouldn't have used his real identity if this were a con, nor would he try to defend himself in this forum once the game was done.  Obviously, Bruce's reputation within this community matters to himself.  What he should have done in 2005 was simply stop accepting new applications, or at least stop accepting a deposit for accepting new applications.  I've some limited experience with land contracts, and what he was doing was basicly matchmaking of real estate investors and homeowners who were treading water, but still a better risk than the standard metrics would imply.  Sort of like what Prosper.com used to do before the regulators shut them down.  This does not mean that the idea wasn't sound, just that as the market started to tank, the pool of risk worthy homeowners and the pool of available investment funds both dwindled away compared to the pool of soon-to-be-former homeowners.  That said, mismanagement does seem to be a plausible cause of failure, and not one that is easy for most businessmen to admit.  I think that a lot of this is about a subset of forum membership that got burned by Mybitcoin.com (I lost 29 BTC myself) and are too bitter to accept that they (we) all failed to do our due dilligence.  We should never have been so trusting of a faceless website ran by a largely anonymous individual, and we shouldn't be looking for prominant members to blame for our errors.  Take a little responsibility for your own actions, people.  I read today that some woman paid $180 for an Ipad 2 in the parking lot of a McD's; only to get it home and discover that it was a painted block of wood.  The woman called the cops, as this was obviously fraud, but what was she doing buying anything from the back of a van without checking to see if it was real!?  She claims that she didn't think that it could be stolen, either.  Really?  I assume that half of the electronics that I find on Craigslist are stolen, if their list price is less than half of the new price and the seller isn't willing to provide contact info.  Don't you?

It's past time for the members who lost funds to write it off as tuition to the University of Life, and learn from it.  Some of us may have paid more than others, but we should all be able to take a hard won lesson from this.

[lemonginger]

sorry, but fleeing a state to not pay a judgement against you and still having enough money to invest in 25k bitcoins and rent property in one of the most expensive cities in the world is pretty scummy. I agree that mybitcoin was a "school of hard knocks moment" but if there is a chance that one of its largest proponents is also involved in it, that's pretty big for the community to get to the bottom of imho. Bruce's story would be a little more believable if there was a bunch of people who his company had actually helped and/or he tried to make restitution. But crying crocodile tears and skipping the state. not so much.

Bitcoin is obv at a stage where it attracts a lot of scammers, not only because of the nature of the currency but because there are so many people around with equal parts naivety and greed, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to expose them if possible.

[MoonShadow]

sorry, but fleeing a state to not pay a judgement against you and still having enough money to invest in 25k bitcoins and rent property in one of the most expensive cities in the world is pretty scummy.

25K BTC was cheap when BW bought them, and does he not have a job in NYC?  Was this judgement really unpaid or not waived?  If he really didn't have the funds, they might have let him out of it.  That would have been a different document.  Fleeing the state over a civil suit can get you a warrant.  I seriously doubt that BW would still be in the US if this were so.

 I agree that mybitcoin was a "school of hard knocks moment" but if there is a chance that one of its largest proponents is also involved in it, that's pretty big for the community to get to the bottom of imho. Bruce's story would be a little more believable if there was a bunch of people who his company had actually helped and/or he tried to make restitution. But crying crocodile tears and skipping the state. not so much.

How do you know that he didn't try to make amends?

[fcmatt]

http://www.freezepage.com/pub/U737985/BruceWagner

[hugolp]

sorry, but fleeing a state to not pay a judgement against you and still having enough money to invest in 25k bitcoins and rent property in one of the most expensive cities in the world is pretty scummy. I agree that mybitcoin was a "school of hard knocks moment" but if there is a chance that one of its largest proponents is also involved in it, that's pretty big for the community to get to the bottom of imho. Bruce's story would be a little more believable if there was a bunch of people who his company had actually helped and/or he tried to make restitution. But crying crocodile tears and skipping the state. not so much.

Bitcoin is obv at a stage where it attracts a lot of scammers, not only because of the nature of the currency but because there are so many people around with equal parts naivety and greed, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to expose them if possible.

Again, Im not saying Bruce Wagner is not guilty of whatever. Im just saying that regarding MyBitcoin all the evidences point to the people behind MyBitcoin scam trying to frame BW using the drama that is going on. As you say, we should not stop trying to expose scammers if posible.

Also, we have to keep in mind that the forum is under a cohordinated attack. Stick to proven facts.

[bosschair]

Yeah, in some situations I could believe that maybe they had great aspirations and wanted to help people get out from under their mortgage debt and simply mismanaged it and the whole thing fell apart, except that one niggling detail: where did all those people's money go?

[MoonShadow]

Yeah, in some situations I could believe that maybe they had great aspirations and wanted to help people get out from under their mortgage debt and simply mismanaged it and the whole thing fell apart, except that one niggling detail: where did all those people's money go?

Salaries for paper pushing office employees, real estate lawyers via fees, deed investigations, etc.  The statement that a non-refundable deposit paid by the homeowner seeking aid, of a substantial amount in most cases, is plausible.  This, however, is what really got them in trouble.  Lacking a license in the state to do real estate, they shouldn't have been taking any money from prospective clients.  They should have tried to be more discriminating with those they thought they could help.  The subset of late homeowners that were still credit worthy enough for a land contract (which is basicly just another form of refinance, using a rent-to-own contract to sidestep a lot of real estate regulatory BS) is a narrow, but mathmaticly predictable, band of people.  They should have been able to eliminate 95% of the unworthy applicants based on a simple questionaire wherein they provide data on their finances, and via their credit background check.  Those who still had a good credit rating should have been able to refinance without them, it's those who had a very poor credit rating for other reasons that (no longer) applied to the homeowner.  For example, a divorced single woman, employed, who filed for bankruptcy due to the circumstances of divorce.  (Even a divorce does not relieve your responsibilities to pay for your deadbeat ex-spouse's debts, if they occurred while you were married)

[tasarz]

Moonshadow- as far as I know, the judgment is still unpaid.  I have no involvement with the Mybitcoin scandal, but think about this- why does a guy who still owes $300,000, who was shown to have grossly overrepresented his services (he claimed to have 70+ offices when the real number was 0 or 1), still have the trust of the community?  A man who decided to have a bitcoin conference in a sex tourism capital?  How does he even have the funds to go globetrotting (I hear he's in Japan visiting MtGox at the moment) if he owes so much money? 

If he were some average Joe I wouldn't care.  But he's not an average Joe.  He's been interviewed by NPR and, like it or not, is the public face of bitcoin.  The community deserves a better representative, but every time someone brings it up they're accused of being a troll.

I'm no troll.  Everything I've stated here is there for the world to see in public records.  I just don't see why so many people are willfully ignoring what's staring them in the face.

[MoonShadow]

I never thought that anyone should be the 'face' of bitcoin to start with, but the media needs someone to be the point man.  BW stepped up to do that task.  He should not continue, regardless of the truth or fiction among these accusations.  Still, I'm questioning the vitrol of many of the posters in these threads.  Some facts exist.  Some of them quite damaging, taken alone.  I take such things with a grain of salt.  I'm not here to defend BW.  Honestly, I don't care about his reputation.  I do care about this forum, and think that most of this is way out of bounds, but I havn't yet done anything to prevent it.  Members have a right to say what they want, to a point, even if what they have to say is false or generally asshat-ish in nature.  But there is an aweful lot of blaming going on here lately.  Sometimes we get scammed.  Take your lumps and move on.  Don't trust BW or any anonymous wallet service again.  But none of us are going to get compensated by BW, whether that is the proper course or not.  And nor is it ours to decide if it is the proper course.  If you have evidence that BW is actually responsible, please present that to a detective at the fraud devision of the NYPD.