[ANN][Datacoin] Next step: web applications inside blockchain (demo)

[vintagetrex]

Yay this has been a pleasant surprise.  It's good to know the developer is still around.  

I think the datacoin storage payments should be paid to an address that permanently takes them out of circulation.  That would increase the value of datacoin.  Then, the amount of DTC/kb could be changed.  I outlined the design here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFoBC53e310

[extro24]

Yay this has been a pleasant surprise.  It's good to know the developer is still around.  

I think the datacoin storage payments should be paid to an address that permanently takes them out of circulation.  That would increase the value of datacoin.  Then, the amount of DTC/kb could be changed.  I outlined the design here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFoBC53e310

No, that would just make profits for the early adopters.  The coins must circulate to make the Datacoin economy grow.

[cryptrol]

I think the datacoin storage payments should be paid to an address that permanently takes them out of circulation.  That would increase the value of datacoin.

But what about the incentives for miners ? Miners secure the network with their power, and at the moment there is little incentive in mining DTC (from an instant profitability point of view).
When Datacoin goes more mainstream and we are using the chain at full cap, every block will be worth more than 50 DTC instead of the 10 DTC we are at right now. Although I understand your concerns about the value since the number of DTC is unlimited (or very high which is essentially the same) and using an unspendable address would surely help keep the inflation at a more reasonable level.

[panonym]

Message to dev of datacoin:

I'm just a random guy for you, which can provide no code.
Yet if you're looking for thinker, discuss idea, or create a think tank (who know) I wish to help.
I guess my view and ideas are of quality.
Obviously everyone think / will say that... (so hard to know for sure)
'still, I wanna help. If you wish my help with idea or whatever, just let me know.
Outsider view are always useful (of course you have a whole popular forum for that 'anyway)

I admit: many thing about your project is still very blurry to me.
Including what it can presently do, how it does it, and what are it's long term attempt / goal to reach.
(Yeah, pretty much everything *laugh  'improving that)
But you appear much more solid than the new team willing to play with "proof of bandwidth".
I didn't check NMC-team for a long while, but it seem they are still over-focused on DNS only.
(Web of trust preventing DNS squatting interest me more at the moment)

------

It's nice to be able to see the picture of a kitten. (well DL it, doesn't wanna show direct on my browser)

The problem I see is that you need registration on a specific website for that to work.
I dream to see decentralized server. No idea if that is in your long term project.
(I read you don't want to include any DNS feature (for now? KISS/UNIX is cool, no prob with that))

So correct me if I'm wrong:
You consider your project is still in alpha or beta?
You main purpose right now is to become the best decentralized mesh hosting.
(without any censorship, and hosting data ideally forever). Is that it?

Next, then, the main feature you should (logically) try to reach is easy availability of this data to all.
In the most convenient and reliable way.
For now: you either need to have the whole blockchain locally, or subscribe on krypte.net
So still a long way to go.
I'd like to know what you planned in this regard.

Like, http://easylink.whatever/txid-linking-to-this-kitten-pict
No subscription, nothing.
Everyone can use a simple {img}thatlink{/img} on any forum and have this kitten exposed to the world.

Problem with that is centralization.
- Registrar can block your redirection and ICANN can seize the DNS.
- supposedly that NMC.bit was easy for everyone and accessible from firefox, you are still subject to DDOS
I guess IP rotation is not even in development right now in NMC-team.
Yet even if it was already implemented, you would still rely on a limited number of server hosting the whole blockchain and what is needed for it to work smoothly.

I wonder if the following is possible:
Convert your txid in a kind of sub-tracker, bittorrent inspired ('might mean need new soft/browser).
Or simply an .i2p link (or similar) which would address all the node with a full blockchain at the same time.

So to see this cute kitten I either:
- run TAILS, open i2p, enter something like datacoinBC.i2p/txid-linking-to-this-kitten-pict
  (or obviously, it's direct [52_chars].b32.i2p/pictlink)
- or can write on any lambda forum {img}http://tor-to-the-web.net/i2p-to-tor.onion/52charsaddressofdatacoinBC.b32.i2p/txid-linking-to-this-kitten-pict{/img}


Question:
Do you want this very project, with this very blockchain, to still be the one in 5 years? or are you open and see it as play-ground/experiment, where you don't mind that much to restart everything from the start if it can lead to something better, more neat and more popular?


PS: dev, to keep thing ordered, feel free to open a new thread
[such as "Datacoin future" or "Datacoin general Q&A"]
(with quote of the second part, after -----, and your answers)

[maxsolnc]

It's nice to be able to see the picture of a kitten. (well DL it, doesn't wanna show direct on my browser)

The problem I see is that you need registration on a specific website for that to work.
I dream to see decentralized server. No idea if that is in your long term project.
(I read you don't want to include any DNS feature (for now? KISS/UNIX is cool, no prob with that))

Now anyone can install simple perl scripts and gain easy access to files stored in the blockchain, if these files are stored with help of these scripts. So it will be good to have such server (it is really small) on each machine with Datacoin which needs access to this files, user will go to e.g. http://localhost:8080/dtc/txid/a2784925fe6a147c85ed8a4694d4f3e8f616141d7c7dc548b70e3d8f25a651fb  and see the kitten - no need to go anywhere outside. It is the most important idea of the OP - anyone can start his DTC server, even on local machine.

Talking about 'the one' -  we need core dev to answer this question, but it seems to me that Datacoin allows a very big 'play-ground' that doesn't need any changes to core protocol, but tons of applications can be written on top-level of it.

[GreekBitcoin]

It's nice to be able to see the picture of a kitten. (well DL it, doesn't wanna show direct on my browser)

The problem I see is that you need registration on a specific website for that to work.
I dream to see decentralized server. No idea if that is in your long term project.
(I read you don't want to include any DNS feature (for now? KISS/UNIX is cool, no prob with that))

Now anyone can install simple perl scripts and gain easy access to files stored in the blockchain, if these files are stored with help of these scripts. So it will be good to have such server (it is really small) on each machine with Datacoin which needs access to this files, user will go to e.g. http://localhost:8080/dtc/txid/a2784925fe6a147c85ed8a4694d4f3e8f616141d7c7dc548b70e3d8f25a651fb  and see the kitten - no need to go anywhere outside. It is the most important idea of the OP - anyone can start his DTC server, even on local machine.

Talking about 'the one' -  we need core dev to answer this question, but it seems to me that Datacoin allows a very big 'play-ground' that doesn't need any changes to core protocol, but tons of applications can be written on top-level of it.

i can offer my computer and a small vps for this to be done but i dont know how...

[vintagetrex]

Yay this has been a pleasant surprise.  It's good to know the developer is still around.  

I think the datacoin storage payments should be paid to an address that permanently takes them out of circulation.  That would increase the value of datacoin.  Then, the amount of DTC/kb could be changed.  I outlined the design here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFoBC53e310

No, that would just make profits for the early adopters.  The coins must circulate to make the Datacoin economy grow.

Where did all this socialism come from?  Circulating the coins is not going to make them increase in value.  If everyone here is trying to not make money then let me know so I can dump 10k+ DTC now.  

[vintagetrex]

I think the datacoin storage payments should be paid to an address that permanently takes them out of circulation.  That would increase the value of datacoin.

But what about the incentives for miners ? Miners secure the network with their power, and at the moment there is little incentive in mining DTC (from an instant profitability point of view).
When Datacoin goes more mainstream and we are using the chain at full cap, every block will be worth more than 50 DTC instead of the 10 DTC we are at right now. Although I understand your concerns about the value since the number of DTC is unlimited (or very high which is essentially the same) and using an unspendable address would surely help keep the inflation at a more reasonable level.

removing the DTC from circulation will increase the coin price which will increase the value of the coins the miners get.  It spreads evenly amongst everyone.  

When did plans to increase the block reward to 50 DTC get talked about?  That's really annoying.  You are going to screw over all your early investors, myself included, not that they haven't been screwed already.  Thank god I didn't put money in earlier or I would have lost everything >90%.  

What you said about the high number of coins is true.  There seems little reason for people to purchase DTC.  The price is almost designed to go flat so everyone can store a file cheaply.  Rather than increasing the price of coins to increase the value of the mining reward you want to increase the amount of coins in the mining reward while keeping the price low.  

[GreekBitcoin]

I think the datacoin storage payments should be paid to an address that permanently takes them out of circulation.  That would increase the value of datacoin.

But what about the incentives for miners ? Miners secure the network with their power, and at the moment there is little incentive in mining DTC (from an instant profitability point of view).
When Datacoin goes more mainstream and we are using the chain at full cap, every block will be worth more than 50 DTC instead of the 10 DTC we are at right now. Although I understand your concerns about the value since the number of DTC is unlimited (or very high which is essentially the same) and using an unspendable address would surely help keep the inflation at a more reasonable level.

removing the DTC from circulation will increase the coin price which will increase the value of the coins the miners get.  It spreads evenly amongst everyone. 

When did plans to increase the block reward to 50 DTC get talked about?  That's really annoying.  You are going to screw over all your early investors, myself included, not that they haven't been screwed already.  Thank god I didn't put money in earlier or I would have lost everything >90%. 

What you said about the high number of coins is true.  There seems little reason for people to purchase DTC.  The price is almost designed to go flat so everyone can store a file cheaply.  Rather than increasing the price of coins to increase the value of the mining reward you want to increase the amount of coins in the mining reward while keeping the price low. 

That is silly in my opinion.  It would have been nice to have known this was the plan before I sank several BTC into this project.  I like the idea of Datacoin but to believe there is room for another currency is ridiculous. 

they didnt raise anything.. its like this from the start:

"Fee from fully loaded block is about 50DTC (block reward now is ~11DTC and it decreases)."

[vintagetrex]

I think the datacoin storage payments should be paid to an address that permanently takes them out of circulation.  That would increase the value of datacoin.

But what about the incentives for miners ? Miners secure the network with their power, and at the moment there is little incentive in mining DTC (from an instant profitability point of view).
When Datacoin goes more mainstream and we are using the chain at full cap, every block will be worth more than 50 DTC instead of the 10 DTC we are at right now. Although I understand your concerns about the value since the number of DTC is unlimited (or very high which is essentially the same) and using an unspendable address would surely help keep the inflation at a more reasonable level.

removing the DTC from circulation will increase the coin price which will increase the value of the coins the miners get.  It spreads evenly amongst everyone.  

When did plans to increase the block reward to 50 DTC get talked about?  That's really annoying.  You are going to screw over all your early investors, myself included, not that they haven't been screwed already.  Thank god I didn't put money in earlier or I would have lost everything >90%.  

What you said about the high number of coins is true.  There seems little reason for people to purchase DTC.  The price is almost designed to go flat so everyone can store a file cheaply.  Rather than increasing the price of coins to increase the value of the mining reward you want to increase the amount of coins in the mining reward while keeping the price low.  

That is silly in my opinion.  It would have been nice to have known this was the plan before I sank several BTC into this project.  I like the idea of Datacoin but to believe there is room for another currency is ridiculous.  

they didnt raise anything.. its like this from the start:

"Fee from fully loaded block is about 50DTC (block reward now is ~11DTC and it decreases)."

ok cool I was freaking out for a second.  sorry everyone for me temporarily losing my faith.  I am excited about personal chains.  Also, who is spamming the chain with "broughs="?

[GreekBitcoin]

Are  these the 5byte data i see on the blockchain for some weeks now?

[vintagetrex]

Are  these the 5byte data i see on the blockchain for some weeks now?

8 bytes but ya probably

[panonym]

Now anyone can install simple perl scripts and gain easy access to files stored in the blockchain, if these files are stored with help of these scripts. So it will be good to have such server (it is really small) on each machine with Datacoin which needs access to this files, user will go to e.g. http://localhost:8080/dtc/txid/a2784925fe6a147c85ed8a4694d4f3e8f616141d7c7dc548b70e3d8f25a651fb  and see the kitten - no need to go anywhere outside. It is the most important idea of the OP - anyone can start his DTC server, even on local machine.

So file can be uploaded into the blockchain without this script? (therefore not easy to gain access afterwards)
Or are these perl scripts now implemented into datacoind? (great, 'should be transparent/easy)

About the OP idea, I totally agree that everyone convince by the project should run a local node.
Having your own copy of the blockchain locally, and so instant access to all the uploaded file.
"no need to go anywhere outside" is indeed very important.
But easy access from outside (reliable, secure, easy, etc.) shouldn't be neglect either
Agreed that's the second step.

This project interest me. But I'm not convince by it's actual shape.
Best of luck anyway, to this project and/or what will succeed it.

[oocook5u]

Thank you for your post. Here are some comments.

The problem I see is that you need registration on a specific website for that to work.

No. No registration is required just because no specific website is required to access data from blockchain by design. Any site can be a Datacoin HTTP server. The main intention is to setup LOCAL WEB SERVER on each user's PC. This local web server will be (in the future) very easy to deal with for ordinary PC user.

krypte.net needs registration. They have a right to do this and probably they have to do this because blockchain can contain sensitive content. Registration is 100% up to site owner.

By the way installing Datacoin HTTP server on some domain (like krypte.net did) is also a very good idea: no software is required for users to access data in this case. All URLs in the blockchain MUST be relative for this scenario.

I dream to see decentralized server. No idea if that is in your long term project.
(I read you don't want to include any DNS feature (for now? KISS/UNIX is cool, no prob with that))

Some way to provide meaningful names probably will be developed. This isn't done yet because there is no clear idea how to prevent cybersquatting. Ideas are welcome.

So correct me if I'm wrong:
You consider your project is still in alpha or beta?

Some features are working. Several of them (thanks' to Bitcoin and Primecoin developers) are stable. Many more will be developed.
The project isn't ready for ordinary PC user. But it will be.

You main purpose right now is to become the best decentralized mesh hosting.
(without any censorship, and hosting data ideally forever). Is that it?

A decentralized web.

Next, then, the main feature you should (logically) try to reach is easy availability of this data to all.
In the most convenient and reliable way.
For now: you either need to have the whole blockchain locally, or subscribe on krypte.net

Blockchain must be available locally. Blockchain is a backbone of Datacoin network.

So still a long way to go.
I'd like to know what you planned in this regard.

Like, http://easylink.whatever/txid-linking-to-this-kitten-pict
No subscription, nothing.
Everyone can use a simple {img}thatlink{/img} on any forum and have this kitten exposed to the world.

Problem with that is centralization.
- Registrar can block your redirection and ICANN can seize the DNS.
- supposedly that NMC.bit was easy for everyone and accessible from firefox, you are still subject to DDOS
I guess IP rotation is not even in development right now in NMC-team.
Yet even if it was already implemented, you would still rely on a limited number of server hosting the whole blockchain and what is needed for it to work smoothly.

Why relative URLs are important:

- Ordinary domain name from ICANN can be blocked. So ordinary domain names aren't a solution.
- NMC domains require a Namecoin chain to be available on all devices + browser must support them somehow

Relative URLs can be addressed just like any other URL. Here are examples:

Code:

<script
  src="/dtc/get/465ca75b6dedf70bc85db24548ee99bab776028f9295116afba4fa1e4838ff5f"
  type="text/javascript"
  encoding="UTF-8">
</script>

Code:

<td style="padding-right:6px">
<img 
  src="73b7c7165a51f604040e17681705a39145392691a0447266b9074a2ad9140327"
  alt="Datacoin logo"/>
</td>

Of course this works only in case Datacoin HTTP server is available.

I wonder if the following is possible:
Convert your txid in a kind of sub-tracker, bittorrent inspired ('might mean need new soft/browser).
Or simply an .i2p link (or similar) which would address all the node with a full blockchain at the same time.

So to see this cute kitten I either:
- run TAILS, open i2p, enter something like datacoinBC.i2p/txid-linking-to-this-kitten-pict
  (or obviously, it's direct [52_chars].b32.i2p/pictlink)
- or can write on any lambda forum {img}http://tor-to-the-web.net/i2p-to-tor.onion/52charsaddressofdatacoinBC.b32.i2p/txid-linking-to-this-kitten-pict{/img}

This can work as a centralized service. But this can be blocked. Local server can't be blocked. Only the Internet can be switched off.

I have a list of all unanswered questions in this thread. I'll comment them today also.

[extro24]

IMHO could this thread not be added to the main [ANN] thread?  I really think it belongs there.

[panonym]

Thans for your answer oocook5u.
I needed a break, therefore the delay.

You main purpose right now is to become the best decentralized mesh hosting.
(without any censorship, and hosting data ideally forever). Is that it?

A decentralized web.

Ambitious. That's great.
Do you have a working hyperlink system yet? any uploaded example in the blockchain?
Why did you chose to not force encryption? Unencryption will cause problem.

Some way to provide meaningful names probably will be developed. This isn't done yet because there is no clear idea how to prevent cybersquatting. Ideas are welcome.

For preventing cybersquatting, I suggest DNS based on Web of Trust (a kind of p2p DNS), with addition of online synced user bookmark.
Your website is linked to your pubkey (or a unique txid, 'works too).
Everyone can reach it directly using pubkey.key.wot (or whatever4NMCDNS.bit)
You can chose whatever friendly name you wish.
If you write kitten.wot in a browser, you may have multiple pubkey(1~4).key.wot to chose from (that's the point).
(Ideally people can vote and comment each pubkey, and see it's popularity by traffic or other.)
And every user can specify/save his preference (ex. for me kitten.wot = go to directpubkeykitten2.key.wot)

This can work as a centralized service. But this can be blocked. Local server can't be blocked. Only the Internet can be switched off.

Local server can be DDOSed. IP blacklisted by ISP, etc.
Agreed that this centralized service can be blocked: https://tor-to-the-web.net/i2p-to-tor.onion/52charsaddressofdatacoinBC.b32.i2p/txid-linking-to-this-kitten-pict.jpg
This cannot: 52charsaddressofdatacoinBCkittenmaintxid.b32.i2p
Point is to find a way to address simultaneously many server (ideally all the node).
(Check what Miguel Freitas did with Twister, his bittorrent usage may help)

I am no expert.
If you know a way to reach that, or can affirm .i2p allow (or not) to do precisely that, I am interested to know. (valid for anyone reading this)

Current point is for every one to have a full blockchain on his computer.
But on long term for global adoption, the i2p or i2p-like solution is (almost) a need.
Need easy access from android without local blockchain in the future.

[bidji29]

Since original link doesn't work anymore, you can test it here :

http://108.161.145.4:8080/dtc/get/40a3eb9624528008a87d9119dbed4041d45c9f6483ecd52a7b24f9c8b4fdf548

[oocook5u]

Since original link doesn't work anymore, you can test it here :

http://108.161.145.4:8080/dtc/get/40a3eb9624528008a87d9119dbed4041d45c9f6483ecd52a7b24f9c8b4fdf548

Thank you. I've restarted server. It isn't very stable yet.

[oocook5u]

You main purpose right now is to become the best decentralized mesh hosting.
(without any censorship, and hosting data ideally forever). Is that it?

A decentralized web.

Ambitious. That's great.
Do you have a working hyperlink system yet?
any uploaded example in the blockchain?

As far as I understand the question it is working now in blockchain explorer (as soon as this explorer itself is in the blockchain).

Why did you chose to not force encryption? Unencryption will cause problem.

I'm trying to solve another problem: not a security problem but an availability problem.

Some way to provide meaningful names probably will be developed. This isn't done yet because there is no clear idea how to prevent cybersquatting. Ideas are welcome.

For preventing cybersquatting, I suggest DNS based on Web of Trust (a kind of p2p DNS), with addition of online synced user bookmark.
Your website is linked to your pubkey (or a unique txid, 'works too).
Everyone can reach it directly using pubkey.key.wot (or whatever4NMCDNS.bit)
You can chose whatever friendly name you wish.
If you write kitten.wot in a browser, you may have multiple pubkey(1~4).key.wot to chose from (that's the point).
(Ideally people can vote and comment each pubkey, and see it's popularity by traffic or other.)
And every user can specify/save his preference (ex. for me kitten.wot = go to directpubkeykitten2.key.wot)

Thank you

This can work as a centralized service. But this can be blocked. Local server can't be blocked. Only the Internet can be switched off.

Local server can be DDOSed. IP blacklisted by ISP, etc.

localhost:80 can't be blocked because it is on the same PC with browser.

Agreed that this centralized service can be blocked: https://tor-to-the-web.net/i2p-to-tor.onion/52charsaddressofdatacoinBC.b32.i2p/txid-linking-to-this-kitten-pict.jpg
This cannot: 52charsaddressofdatacoinBCkittenmaintxid.b32.i2p
Point is to find a way to address simultaneously many server (ideally all the node).
(Check what Miguel Freitas did with Twister, his bittorrent usage may help)

Yes. Twister is a very similar idea.

I am no expert.
If you know a way to reach that, or can affirm .i2p allow (or not) to do precisely that, I am interested to know. (valid for anyone reading this)

Current point is for every one to have a full blockchain on his computer.
But on long term for global adoption, the i2p or i2p-like solution is (almost) a need.
Need easy access from android without local blockchain in the future.

Yes. Android and other small devices are important.

[oocook5u]

Any possibilities in future to go beyond static website?

Yes. There are several ways to do this:

- local server will support senddata RPC. This method has important security concerns because it leads to spending money. Some way to protect user from spending his money by malicious JS code will be required. At least some explicit confirmation.

- adding data to personal chain will not necessary result in spending money but will add data that will be available to other users with DHT-based search

PS: I've been distantly watching Datacoin for a while now.
Main problem is that it'is way too complex.
I managed to burn BTC using counterpartyd software for example, that's where my low level is at.
But I barely understand anything about uploading file into DTC blockchain and retrieve them.
Any centralized doc trying to become more user friendly?

Such doc is really required as soon as a sound end-user value will appear.