[ARTICLE] Bitcoin To Collapse?

[Piper67]

Stop using the same argument over and OVER again. That means I can also say it's up more then 1000x from the start. If solidcoin would replace bitcoin, that doesn't mean there can't be price bubbles ...

Can you seriously tell me with a straight face that this entire decline has been a "price bubble"?

This has been an out-right depression, and anyone thinking anything else needs to go read a book on economics.

What he's trying to tell you, as if you didn't know already, is that this is a decline only if you start counting from June of 2011. But if you start counting from 2009 this is a 100,000 percent rise. Are you a fool or just playing one for your own interests?

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[phillipsjk]

Read my post I edited. The truth is undeniable at this point... I love Bitcoin with all my heart, but it has fundamental problems that NEED to be fixed. This entire notion that beta software should NOT BE CHANGED, is cult like, and totally opposite to how software development should be conducted.

One way to sustain Bitcoins viability is for Bitcoin to adopt a fast re-adjustment algorithm that isn't effected by huge network swings.

Bitcoin is in its infancy. It is an experiment that will be a lot harder to interpret if the 'protocol' is tweaked too much before even the first drop in block-reward happens. If miners start dropping like flies, there is a solution: pay higher transaction fees. If enough people pay enough transaction fees, mining will become profitable again.

The protocol taking time to adjust to changes in network performance is a good thing. It allows miners to respond to problems on human time scales. It guards against network take-overs during localized outages. The 10 minute block interval reduces the number of stale blocks processed, while still allowing transaction to happen within a reasonable ammount of time.

Put another way: you are thinking in the extreme short term. In my opinion any crypto-currency, no matter how good, will fail in the next 20-50 years. Modern computers are simply too insecure to handle a cryptocurrency. I predict that secure, proven correct on pain of liability, computers of equivalent complexity will take generations (or about 150 years) to develop. IMO, due to the 1996 WIPO 'Copyright' and 'Performances and Phonographs' treaties*, computer security has been regressing for the past 15 years.

* Articles 11 (Copyright)  and 18 (P&P) may be a symptom, rather than a cause of corruption. The fundamental issue is who controls the computer: the user or the manufacturer?
PS: I realize the 'state of the art' has advanced over the past 15 years; but people are still installing insecure sofware (like adobe flash player) as the administrative user. You can't install software making use of DRM as a limited user unless it plays nice in a virtual machine.

[aq]

As another poster on top said it has dropped 75% in value from the highs we just recently saw.

Solidcoin managed the same within under a week - very solid!
Is there no solidcoin forum where you can toady other solidcoin followers?
You could even constantly rename the forum, after the scam chain of the week.

[Surawit]

Can you seriously tell me with a straight face that this entire decline has been a "price bubble"?

This has been an out-right depression, and anyone thinking anything else needs to go read a book on economics.

I think it is you who needs to read the economics textbook. It is very basic:

Bitcoin is inherently DEFLATIONARY. This means that, in the long term, the value of Bitcoins will only go UP. Depressions in other currencies are always caused by governments trying to overrule the markets printing more money... For example, the USA in the 1920s and Zimbabwe recently.  There is NO CENTRAL AUTHORITY in bitcoin to issue such an order, and therefore 'depressions', as the word is commonly understood, are impossible.

[N12]

Bitcoin is inherently DEFLATIONARY. This means that, in the long term, the value of Bitcoins will only go UP.

ಠ_ರೃ

I cannot bear this amount of stupid anymore.

[mute20]

Bitcoin is inherently DEFLATIONARY. This means that, in the long term, the value of Bitcoins will only go UP.

ಠ_ರೃ

I cannot bear this amount of stupid anymore.

haha seems like people just like to slip in words when they feel like it. Even when they don't make sense.

[FlipPro]

Stop using the same argument over and OVER again. That means I can also say it's up more then 1000x from the start. If solidcoin would replace bitcoin, that doesn't mean there can't be price bubbles ...

Can you seriously tell me with a straight face that this entire decline has been a "price bubble"?

This has been an out-right depression, and anyone thinking anything else needs to go read a book on economics.

What he's trying to tell you, as if you didn't know already, is that this is a decline only if you start counting from June of 2011. But if you start counting from 2009 this is a 100,000 percent rise. Are you a fool or just playing one for your own interests?

I guess I am "new" to Bitcoin compared to the earlier veterans (many whom are no longer here). I actually own both BTC and SC, so I have interests in BOTH. I want to own every single type of cryptocurrency available to mankind. The reason?

I don't know the future, and neither does anyone else on this forum. All we can do is speculate with the facts given to us at any given time. Forget about the past because those days are truly over, and start thinking about the future. No one cares that the market has exploded 1000% in the past because all they have been doing since they signed on is loose money.
 
I will put my time & money where ever I see the most progress in. I think many people get caught up in the sensationalism, and look at Bitcoin as this sort of godlike entity, when it's just a programming code that is absolutely amazing, but needs to fix a few things before it can go mainstream.

It is of course still BETA. We got that "Beta" clause to push us all the way till next year.

[Nicksasa]

Stop using the same argument over and OVER again. That means I can also say it's up more then 1000x from the start. If solidcoin would replace bitcoin, that doesn't mean there can't be price bubbles ...

Can you seriously tell me with a straight face that this entire decline has been a "price bubble"?

This has been an out-right depression, and anyone thinking anything else needs to go read a book on economics.

What he's trying to tell you, as if you didn't know already, is that this is a decline only if you start counting from June of 2011. But if you start counting from 2009 this is a 100,000 percent rise. Are you a fool or just playing one for your own interests?

I guess I am "new" to Bitcoin compared to the earlier veterans (many whom are no longer here). I actually own both BTC and SC, so I have interests in BOTH. I want to own every single type of cryptocurrency available to mankind. The reason?

I don't know the future, and neither does anyone else on this forum. All we can do is speculate with the facts given to us at any given time. Forget about the past because those days are truly over, and start thinking about the future. No one cares that the market has exploded 1000% in the past because all they have been doing since they signed on is loose money.
 
I will put my time & money where ever I see the most progress in. I think many people get caught up in the sensationalism, and look at Bitcoin as this sort of godlike entity, when it's just a programming code that is absolutely amazing, but needs to fix a few things before it can go mainstream.

It is of course still BETA. We got that "Beta" clause to push us all the way till next year.

Yeah, ofcourse  And I don't care it dropped 75% in a relative small timespan.

[FlipPro]

Bitcoin is inherently DEFLATIONARY. This means that, in the long term, the value of Bitcoins will only go UP.

It is only deflationary in the minds of people who truly believe in Bitcoin.

But for something that can be easily duplicated, and changed around it's kinda stupid to call it "deflationary".

Like I said I think the best solution would be a fast algorithm that adapts to network situations fast (Solidcoin), that has a demuraging rate of all lost/stored coins, giving the money right back to the miners, and putting psychological pressure on people to spend.  Some really intelligent people are already working on this sort of coin http://www.freicoin.org/.

And we should definitely get rid of our sales pitch "deflationary". I think it really does do more harm than good especially when you are talking to an investor who has real hard deflationary assets.

[Nicksasa]

Bitcoin is inherently DEFLATIONARY. This means that, in the long term, the value of Bitcoins will only go UP.

It is only deflationary in the minds of people who truly believe in Bitcoin.

But for something that can be easily duplicated, and changed around it's kinda stupid to call it "deflationary".

Like I said I think the best solution would be a fast algorithm that adapts to network situations fast (Solidcoin), that has a demuraging rate of all lost/stored coins, giving the money right back to the miners, and putting psychological pressure on people to spend.  Some really intelligent people are already working on this sort of coin http://www.freicoin.org/.

And we should definitely get rid of our sales pitch "deflationary". I think it really does do more harm than good especially when you are talking to an investor who has real hard deflationary assets.

It's only deflationary until a certain point, when there are almost no NEW coins mined.

[FlipPro]

Read my post I edited. The truth is undeniable at this point... I love Bitcoin with all my heart, but it has fundamental problems that NEED to be fixed. This entire notion that beta software should NOT BE CHANGED, is cult like, and totally opposite to how software development should be conducted.

One way to sustain Bitcoins viability is for Bitcoin to adopt a fast re-adjustment algorithm that isn't effected by huge network swings.

Bitcoin is in its infancy. It is an experiment that will be a lot harder to interpret if the 'protocol' is tweaked too much before even the first drop in block-reward happens. If miners start dropping like flies, there is a solution: pay higher transaction fees. If enough people pay enough transaction fees, mining will become profitable again.

The protocol taking time to adjust to changes in network performance is a good thing. It allows miners to respond to problems on human time scales. I guards against network take-overs during localized outages. The 10 minute block interval reduces the number of stale blocks processed, while still allowing transaction to happen within a reasonable ammount of time.

Put another way: you are thinking in the extreme short term. In my opinion any crypto-currency, no matter how good, will fail in the next 20-50 years. Modern computers are simply too insecure to handle a cryptocurrency. I predict that secure, proven correct on pain of liability, computers of equivalent complexity will take generations (or about 150 years) to develop. IMO, due to the 1996 WIPO 'Copyright' and 'Performances and Phonographs' treaties*, computer security has been regressing for the past 15 years.

* Articles 11 (Copyright)  and 18 (P&P) may be a symptom, rather than a cause of corruption. The fundamental issue is who controls the computer: the user or the manufacturer?

Why would people want to pay higher transaction fee's, when they can go to a competing network and get the same amount of transactions done for free?

This is my point, anyone thinking that they are going to be able to prevent anyone from competing with Bitcoin is nuts. Competition is only going to skyrocket after the first proven successful fork is established. It will only inspire even more people to spark their own idea/currency.

I picture exchanges having 100+ crypto currencys in the next 10 years, all with their own properties/values

[aq]

I want to own every single type of cryptocurrency available to mankind.

Big business opportunity here:

1) Start a block chain once a day.
2) FlipPro will buy the useless coins from all of them.
3) Endless profit!!!

If you still haven't noticed, that is exactly the reason why someone starts a new block chain that is just a copy of bitcoin. But people get what they deserve.

Someone should write a patch for bitcoin so that the chain parameters can be specified as a command line argument. That way new block chains could be setup on a much higher rate, until all "curious" people have been milked as much as possible.

[FlipPro]

Bitcoin is inherently DEFLATIONARY. This means that, in the long term, the value of Bitcoins will only go UP.

It is only deflationary in the minds of people who truly believe in Bitcoin.

But for something that can be easily duplicated, and changed around it's kinda stupid to call it "deflationary".

Like I said I think the best solution would be a fast algorithm that adapts to network situations fast (Solidcoin), that has a demuraging rate of all lost/stored coins, giving the money right back to the miners, and putting psychological pressure on people to spend.  Some really intelligent people are already working on this sort of coin http://www.freicoin.org/.

And we should definitely get rid of our sales pitch "deflationary". I think it really does do more harm than good especially when you are talking to an investor who has real hard deflationary assets.

It's only deflationary until a certain point, when there are almost no NEW coins mined.

Huh?

Right now Bitcoins are Inflating not Deflating good sir.

They will only start to "Deflate" when the 21,000,000 cap is reached.

But once again many, many people have a problem calling digital property "deflationary".

[FlipPro]

I want to own every single type of cryptocurrency available to mankind.

Big business opportunity here:

1) Start a block chain once a day.
2) FlipPro will buy the useless coins from all of them.
3) Endless profit!!!

If you still haven't noticed, that is exactly the reason why someone starts a new block chain that is just a copy of bitcoin. But people get what they deserve.

Someone should write a patch for bitcoin so that the chain parameters can be specified as a command line argument. That way new block chains could be setup on a much higher rate, until all "curious" people have been milked as much as possible.

I didn't buy IX or I0. Those were obvious scams... But I do own , Bitcoins, Namecoins , and Solidcoins. You won't be thinking I am so stupid when all these coins hit their respective peaks. And if I loose a few that's fine to.

And actually IX and I0 coins are scams no more since they now have resurrected their network by copying Solidcoins new algorithm lol.

How ironic...

[Surawit]

Huh?

Right now Bitcoins are Inflating not Deflating good sir.

They will only start to "Deflate" when the 21,000,000 cap is reached.

But once again many, many people have a problem calling digital property "deflationary".

This is not true, you are being misleading with trivial semantics. Because there EXISTS a cap, bitcoins are DEFLATIONARY. It does not matter that the cap has not yet been reached, because everyone in the market has KNOWLEDGE of the caps inevitable existence. Therefore the market will treat the currency in a deflationary manner. You can read about deflation at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation.

[FlipPro]

Huh?

Right now Bitcoins are Inflating not Deflating good sir.

They will only start to "Deflate" when the 21,000,000 cap is reached.

But once again many, many people have a problem calling digital property "deflationary".

This is not true, you are being misleading with trivial semantics. Because there EXISTS a cap, bitcoins are DEFLATIONARY. It does not matter that the cap has not yet been reached, because everyone in the market has KNOWLEDGE of the caps inevitable existence. Therefore the market will treat the currency in a deflationary manner. You can read about deflation at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation.

You are being an idealist. I am trying to be rational here. If you can start up a network that is almost identical to Bitcoin at almost 0 cost, and have it relatively competitive in just a few months how can you claim that your 21 Million is divine? I understand Bitcoins will cap, but if the network cap is small and diluted due to competition from other currency's, than how much we are really going to make off it's deflationary properties.

[Piper67]

Huh?

Right now Bitcoins are Inflating not Deflating good sir.

They will only start to "Deflate" when the 21,000,000 cap is reached.

But once again many, many people have a problem calling digital property "deflationary".

This is not true, you are being misleading with trivial semantics. Because there EXISTS a cap, bitcoins are DEFLATIONARY. It does not matter that the cap has not yet been reached, because everyone in the market has KNOWLEDGE of the caps inevitable existence. Therefore the market will treat the currency in a deflationary manner. You can read about deflation at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation.

Agreed, any commodity with a finite existence is, in essence, deflationary. Gold has always been deflationary. More gold gets mined every day, but because we all understand it to be a finite resource, it's deflationary in nature.

With a currency it might be a slightly different analysis, as a currency exists within the bounds of its economy. Seen that way, Bitcoin is inflationary right now, all things being equal will become inflationary neutral in early 2013, and will then turn deflationary in 2017.

[aq]

I want to own every single type of cryptocurrency available to mankind.

Big business opportunity here:

1) Start a block chain once a day.
2) FlipPro will buy the useless coins from all of them.
3) Endless profit!!!

If you still haven't noticed, that is exactly the reason why someone starts a new block chain that is just a copy of bitcoin. But people get what they deserve.

Someone should write a patch for bitcoin so that the chain parameters can be specified as a command line argument. That way new block chains could be setup on a much higher rate, until all "curious" people have been milked as much as possible.

I didn't buy IX or I0. Those were obvious scams... But I do own , Bitcoins, Namecoins , and Solidcoins. You won't be thinking I am so stupid when all these coins hit their respective peaks. And if I loose a few that's fine to.

And actually IX and I0 coins are scams no more since they now have resurrected their network by copying Solidcoins new algorithm lol.

How ironic...

So according to you logic, I have updated my business plan:
1) Start a solid coin block chain once a day.
2) FlipPro will buy the useless coins from all of them.
3) Endless profit!!!

To the other readers: this is basically the same plan as before, just a few parameters have changed. And I have to switch to some untested bitcoin alpha version the same as solidcoin did. But you know, customer is king, and FlipPro being my customer I have to tell what he likes to hear

[Piper67]

Huh?

Right now Bitcoins are Inflating not Deflating good sir.

They will only start to "Deflate" when the 21,000,000 cap is reached.

But once again many, many people have a problem calling digital property "deflationary".

This is not true, you are being misleading with trivial semantics. Because there EXISTS a cap, bitcoins are DEFLATIONARY. It does not matter that the cap has not yet been reached, because everyone in the market has KNOWLEDGE of the caps inevitable existence. Therefore the market will treat the currency in a deflationary manner. You can read about deflation at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation.

You are being an idealist. I am trying to be rational here. If you can start up a network that is almost identical to Bitcoin at almost 0 cost, and have it relatively competitive in just a few months how can you claim that your 21 Million is divine? I understand Bitcoins will cap, but if the network cap is small and diluted due to competition from other currency's, than how much are we really going to make off it's deflationary properties.

The fact that there might be other currencies in no way implies that Bitcoin is inflationary. Those other currencies are, well, OTHER CURRENCIES. In fact, it is quite possible that in the future there will be other cryptocurrencies working in tandem with Bitcoin, which will be naturally inflationary, and will balance out the "deflationary spiral" fears (which are unfounded, but may have some effect anyway).

They'll still be other currencies, though.

And nobody is suggesting Bitcoin is divine, incidentally, that's just a troll line you tend to drop here and there hoping it will stick.

[stryker]

I think solidcoin gathers its steam from the fact the developers are pushing.... well its development... rather than sitting on hoards of coins hoping they will be worth something some day.

My big prob with solidcoin is the same as bitcoin..... limited coin base... ok so a bit/solid coin can be broken down by 8 decimal places.... the typical joe public just dont get that... hell its a human condition we work in integers mentally.... I only hope as solidcoin has less large coin holders the difficult decisions ahead to make "change" will go through....

Beyond that other than my peeve regarding bitcoin apparent appearances of stagnation I'm neither here nor there camp wise.