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Author Topic: Let's recap on what we've seen in the past few months  (Read 11931 times)
defxor
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September 02, 2011, 03:38:26 PM
 #21

Though the lay man might not understand the finer technical details enough to comprehend the flaws in the Bitcoin system, the entire mystique surrounding the scam is just foul enough to impart the wisdom to stay away.

I explained the, for his use, necessary parts of Bitcoin to my hairdresser (!) yesterday, and showed him Bitcoin Wallet on my mobile.

He wants it, now. If we had what Bit-pay offers in my country he would be standing in line to sign up.

It might be flawed, but not as much as the existing credit card and banking system is for small merchants.

Why do you people still believe there's going to be bitcoin ASICs? How many goddamn times does it have to be drilled into your head that the economics will NEVER work out enough to develop one until BTC are trading for well over $50/coin steadily...

Yeah I had this argument in another thread a few weeks ago. People claimed there would NEVER be Bitcoin FPGAs.

I think it's the other way around actually. I won't even touch mining until we're at ASICs, since I consider the price to follow production cost until we hit the uptake vs deflation knee of the curve. GPU miners need to charge $6/BTC. FPGA miners can charge $0.5. ASIC miners can ...

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Synaptic
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September 02, 2011, 03:41:39 PM
 #22

Though the lay man might not understand the finer technical details enough to comprehend the flaws in the Bitcoin system, the entire mystique surrounding the scam is just foul enough to impart the wisdom to stay away.

I explained the, for his use, necessary parts of Bitcoin to my hairdresser (!) yesterday, and showed him Bitcoin Wallet on my mobile.

He wants it, now. If we had what Bit-pay offers in my country he would be standing in line to sign up.

It might be flawed, but not as much as the existing credit card and banking system is for small merchants.

Why do you people still believe there's going to be bitcoin ASICs? How many goddamn times does it have to be drilled into your head that the economics will NEVER work out enough to develop one until BTC are trading for well over $50/coin steadily...

Yeah I had this argument in another thread a few weeks ago. People claimed there would NEVER be Bitcoin FPGAs.

I think it's the other way around actually. I won't even touch mining until we're at ASICs, since I consider the price to follow production cost until we hit the uptake vs deflation knee of the curve. GPU miners need to charge $6/BTC. FPGA miners can charge $0.5. ASIC miners can ...



Your fundamental inability to do simple math or understand economies of scale betrays you...
defxor
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September 02, 2011, 03:44:05 PM
 #23

Your fundamental inability to do simple math or understand economies of scale betrays you...

Feel free to explain where my simple math abilities fail me Wink

Piper67
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September 02, 2011, 03:44:56 PM
 #24

Though the lay man might not understand the finer technical details enough to comprehend the flaws in the Bitcoin system, the entire mystique surrounding the scam is just foul enough to impart the wisdom to stay away.

I explained the, for his use, necessary parts of Bitcoin to my hairdresser (!) yesterday, and showed him Bitcoin Wallet on my mobile.

He wants it, now. If we had what Bit-pay offers in my country he would be standing in line to sign up.

It might be flawed, but not as much as the existing credit card and banking system is for small merchants.

Why do you people still believe there's going to be bitcoin ASICs? How many goddamn times does it have to be drilled into your head that the economics will NEVER work out enough to develop one until BTC are trading for well over $50/coin steadily...

Yeah I had this argument in another thread a few weeks ago. People claimed there would NEVER be Bitcoin FPGAs.

I think it's the other way around actually. I won't even touch mining until we're at ASICs, since I consider the price to follow production cost until we hit the uptake vs deflation knee of the curve. GPU miners need to charge $6/BTC. FPGA miners can charge $0.5. ASIC miners can ...



Your fundamental inability to do simple math or understand economies of scale betrays you...

Ah, see, this is where you lost me. I've not found too many forum members with a better grasp of mathematics than defxor. If you stuck around, instead of predictably coming into the forums when there's a dip in price and equally predictably leaving it when the price rises, you'd know that too.
Synaptic
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September 02, 2011, 03:46:47 PM
 #25

Though the lay man might not understand the finer technical details enough to comprehend the flaws in the Bitcoin system, the entire mystique surrounding the scam is just foul enough to impart the wisdom to stay away.

I explained the, for his use, necessary parts of Bitcoin to my hairdresser (!) yesterday, and showed him Bitcoin Wallet on my mobile.

He wants it, now. If we had what Bit-pay offers in my country he would be standing in line to sign up.

It might be flawed, but not as much as the existing credit card and banking system is for small merchants.

Why do you people still believe there's going to be bitcoin ASICs? How many goddamn times does it have to be drilled into your head that the economics will NEVER work out enough to develop one until BTC are trading for well over $50/coin steadily...

Yeah I had this argument in another thread a few weeks ago. People claimed there would NEVER be Bitcoin FPGAs.

I think it's the other way around actually. I won't even touch mining until we're at ASICs, since I consider the price to follow production cost until we hit the uptake vs deflation knee of the curve. GPU miners need to charge $6/BTC. FPGA miners can charge $0.5. ASIC miners can ...



Your fundamental inability to do simple math or understand economies of scale betrays you...

Ah, see, this is where you lost me. I've not found too many forum members with a better grasp of mathematics than defxor. If you stuck around, instead of predictably coming into the forums when there's a dip in price and equally predictably leaving it when the price rises, you'd know that too.

When has the price risen since the hype bubble?

It hasn't.

Every post I will ever make in the future will be at a lower average price than the last.

And anyone that believes FPGAs will ever be cost effective for mining is deluded.

Anyone who believes there will ever be a Bitcoin ASIC is simply fucking retarded.
defxor
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September 02, 2011, 03:51:59 PM
 #26

And anyone that believes FPGAs will ever be cost effective for mining is deluded.
Anyone who believes there will ever be a Bitcoin ASIC is simply fucking retarded.

FPGAs are already more cost effective than GPUs at the electricity costs I have. You might have different views on a suitable expected ROI and projected changes in price and difficulty of course, but since it seems you believe the price of BTCs are going down that's actually contradictory to your claims.

Additionally, you seem somewhat angry.
Synaptic
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September 02, 2011, 03:54:33 PM
 #27

And anyone that believes FPGAs will ever be cost effective for mining is deluded.
Anyone who believes there will ever be a Bitcoin ASIC is simply fucking retarded.

FPGAs are already more cost effective than GPUs at the electricity costs I have. You might have different views on a suitable expected ROI and projected changes in price and difficulty of course, but since it seems you believe the price of BTCs are going down that's actually contradictory to your claims.

Additionally, you seem somewhat angry.


Lol...

Oh god, the stupid you exude is painful.  Alright, math boy, lay out the simple math that illustrates how FPGAs are more cost effective for you. This should be amusing...
defxor
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September 02, 2011, 04:23:55 PM
 #28

Oh god, the stupid you exude is painful.  Alright, math boy, lay out the simple math that illustrates how FPGAs are more cost effective for you. This should be amusing...

Laugh away Smiley

My electricity cost is €0.15/kWh. I believe the numbers below reflect current best-in-class GPU vs current FPGA boards. (I don't mine myself but they'll do for the calculation).

$8/BTC:

FPGA: 100Mhash/s @ 7W = $0.45/day at a cost of €0.15*24*0.007 ~ $0.035 : (13x)
GPU: 800Mhash/s @ 350W = $3.62/day at a cost of €0.15*24*0.35 ~ $1.76 : (2x)

... and, as I project and as you seem to claim, the price of BTC is going down:

$4/BTC:

FPGA: 100Mhash/s @ 7W = $0.23/day at a cost of €0.15*24*0.007 ~ $0.035 : (6.5x)
GPU: 800Mhash/s @ 350W = $1.81/day at a cost of €0.15*24*0.35 ~ $1.76 : (1x)

So. Looking at electricity costs at $4/BTC with all other factors equal (difficulty) GPU miners will need to pull out completely, even if they've paid off their rigs. FPGA miners can continue, with a longer expected ROI.

The point is, upfront costs are irrelevant when you take the long view. I consider mining bitcoins to be just as mining any other form of natural resource. The price floor is at extraction cost (plus minimal profit), anything above that is speculation. Since I agree with you that speculation won't continue to drive BTC price in the near term my projection is that the floor is where the cheapest mining can be had. Currently that's FPGAs, but they will be replaced by ASICs. GPU miners, like CPU miners already have, will need to drop out.

YMMV - and I expect you'll point to investment costs and ROI. That's where we can have differences of opinion Wink

[at $0.2/day it will take years to pay off an FPGA miner. At $0/day it will take even longer to pay of a GPU rig]
Synaptic
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September 02, 2011, 04:30:56 PM
 #29

Oh god, the stupid you exude is painful.  Alright, math boy, lay out the simple math that illustrates how FPGAs are more cost effective for you. This should be amusing...

Laugh away Smiley

My electricity cost is €0.15/kWh. I believe the numbers below reflect current best-in-class GPU vs current FPGA boards. (I don't mine myself but they'll do for the calculation).

$8/BTC:

FPGA: 100Mhash/s @ 7W = $0.45/day at a cost of €0.15*24*0.007 ~ $0.035 : (13x)
GPU: 800Mhash/s @ 350W = $3.62/day at a cost of €0.15*24*0.35 ~ $1.76 : (2x)

... and, as I project and as you seem to claim, the price of BTC is going down:

$4/BTC:

FPGA: 100Mhash/s @ 7W = $0.23/day at a cost of €0.15*24*0.007 ~ $0.035 : (6.5x)
GPU: 800Mhash/s @ 350W = $1.81/day at a cost of €0.15*24*0.35 ~ $1.76 : (1x)

So. Looking at electricity costs at $4/BTC with all other factors equal (difficulty) GPU miners will need to pull out completely, even if they've paid off their rigs. FPGA miners can continue, with a longer expected ROI.

The point is, upfront costs are irrelevant when you take the long view. I consider mining bitcoins to be just as mining any other form of natural resource. The price floor is at extraction cost (plus minimal profit), anything above that is speculation. Since I agree with you that speculation won't continue to drive BTC price in the near term my projection is that the floor is where the cheapest mining can be had. Currently that's FPGAs, but they will be replaced by ASICs. GPU miners, like CPU miners already have, will need to drop out.

YMMV - and I expect you'll point to investment costs and ROI. That's where we can have differences of opinion Wink

[at $0.2/day it will take years to pay off an FPGA miner. At $0/day it will take even longer to pay of a GPU rig]


Upfront costs are irrelevant...

With an ROI of never...

LOL.

So, remind me again which brain-damaged asshole with millions of inherited dollars and their loving relative with custodianship on vacation is gearing up to produce ASICS?


Thanks.

EDIT: oh and BTW, dipshit, what happened to all the rest of the electricity to run the machine that the FPGAs are plugged into?

ElectricMucus
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September 02, 2011, 04:33:13 PM
 #30

Synaptic you seem to have various problems with your attitude towards the chip industry. Wanna talk about it?  Smiley

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
Synaptic
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September 02, 2011, 04:35:03 PM
 #31

Synaptic you seem to have various problems with your attitude towards the chip industry. Wanna talk about it?  Smiley

I love the chip industry. I make my living using the fruits of their labor.

The chip industry and bitcoin have no formal or implied relationship.

No-one in the chip industry gives a shit about Bitcoin, and never will.

So, what are you jabbering on about?
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September 02, 2011, 04:38:18 PM
 #32

So, what are you jabbering on about?
I can't tell you, it's a trade secret  Cheesy

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
Synaptic
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September 02, 2011, 04:42:31 PM
 #33

So, what are you jabbering on about?
I can't tell you, it's a trade secret  Cheesy

Well best of luck to you with that...
defxor
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September 02, 2011, 05:04:07 PM
 #34

So, remind me again which brain-damaged asshole with millions of inherited dollars and their loving relative with custodianship on vacation is gearing up to produce ASICS?

Largecoin, although I'm not sure they agree with that description.

Quote
EDIT: oh and BTW, dipshit, what happened to all the rest of the electricity to run the machine that the FPGAs are plugged into?

That changes one parameter of the calculation, but does not change the conclusion Smiley

(PS: I'm slightly worried about your anger issues. Stress is harmful)

Piper67
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September 02, 2011, 05:07:15 PM
 #35

Though the lay man might not understand the finer technical details enough to comprehend the flaws in the Bitcoin system, the entire mystique surrounding the scam is just foul enough to impart the wisdom to stay away.

I explained the, for his use, necessary parts of Bitcoin to my hairdresser (!) yesterday, and showed him Bitcoin Wallet on my mobile.

He wants it, now. If we had what Bit-pay offers in my country he would be standing in line to sign up.

It might be flawed, but not as much as the existing credit card and banking system is for small merchants.

Why do you people still believe there's going to be bitcoin ASICs? How many goddamn times does it have to be drilled into your head that the economics will NEVER work out enough to develop one until BTC are trading for well over $50/coin steadily...

Yeah I had this argument in another thread a few weeks ago. People claimed there would NEVER be Bitcoin FPGAs.

I think it's the other way around actually. I won't even touch mining until we're at ASICs, since I consider the price to follow production cost until we hit the uptake vs deflation knee of the curve. GPU miners need to charge $6/BTC. FPGA miners can charge $0.5. ASIC miners can ...



Your fundamental inability to do simple math or understand economies of scale betrays you...

A good start to dealing with your anger issues would be to acknowledge that you are wrong (defxor is clearly able to do simple math and understands economies of scale) and say "I'm sorry".  Cheesy
Synaptic
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September 02, 2011, 05:09:08 PM
 #36

So, remind me again which brain-damaged asshole with millions of inherited dollars and their loving relative with custodianship on vacation is gearing up to produce ASICS?

Largecoin, although I'm not sure they agree with that description.

Quote
EDIT: oh and BTW, dipshit, what happened to all the rest of the electricity to run the machine that the FPGAs are plugged into?

That changes one parameter of the calculation, but does not change the conclusion Smiley

(PS: I'm slightly worried about your anger issues. Stress is harmful)




HAHAHA, Largecoin?  You mean that amateur investment scam?

Ok...


LOL.

And your conclusion is so fallacious nothing will change it. Just like the rest of the insane zealots here.
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September 02, 2011, 05:13:12 PM
 #37

Though the lay man might not understand the finer technical details enough to comprehend the flaws in the Bitcoin system, the entire mystique surrounding the scam is just foul enough to impart the wisdom to stay away.

I explained the, for his use, necessary parts of Bitcoin to my hairdresser (!) yesterday, and showed him Bitcoin Wallet on my mobile.

He wants it, now. If we had what Bit-pay offers in my country he would be standing in line to sign up.

It might be flawed, but not as much as the existing credit card and banking system is for small merchants.

Why do you people still believe there's going to be bitcoin ASICs? How many goddamn times does it have to be drilled into your head that the economics will NEVER work out enough to develop one until BTC are trading for well over $50/coin steadily...

Yeah I had this argument in another thread a few weeks ago. People claimed there would NEVER be Bitcoin FPGAs.

I think it's the other way around actually. I won't even touch mining until we're at ASICs, since I consider the price to follow production cost until we hit the uptake vs deflation knee of the curve. GPU miners need to charge $6/BTC. FPGA miners can charge $0.5. ASIC miners can ...



Your fundamental inability to do simple math or understand economies of scale betrays you...

A good start to dealing with your anger issues would be to acknowledge that you are wrong (defxor is clearly able to do simple math and understands economies of scale) and say "I'm sorry".  Cheesy

Yeah I was wrong.  He can do math.  What I should have realized before is that it's not his math skills that are lacking, it's his complete and utter inability to understand profitable business ventures...

And understanding economies of scale?  Not possible when your entire premise is throwing money away thinking you MIGHT have an ROI many many years in the future on some asinine investment scam called Bitcoin.


EDIT: I mean, I'm not even trying anymore. Lol...I can't even muster the mental fortitude to be on point enough to deal with how stupid you people are.

But if you think FPGAs and ASICs are going to be profitable or even exist, then go right ahead and enjoy it while you can. Can't fault a fool...
defxor
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September 02, 2011, 05:15:45 PM
 #38

HAHAHA, Largecoin?  You mean that amateur investment scam?

If you've got proof they are, feel free to share Smiley

Quote from: LargeCoin
at this time, we are unable to and will not raise funds from the public at large, nor will we be taking any deposits for advance product sales

Quote
And your conclusion is so fallacious nothing will change it. Just like the rest of the insane zealots here.

There seems to be a problem with posts disappearing in this thread, I'm sorry. Could you please repost your calculation where FPGA and ASIC mining needs higher instead of lower BTC price to be cost effective vs GPUs?

defxor
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September 02, 2011, 05:22:10 PM
 #39

But if you think FPGAs and ASICs are going to be profitable or even exist

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40047.0
&
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40058.0 (they sold out the previous run)

As to profitable, I thought it was you who - like me - believed $/BTC was going down?
Synaptic
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September 02, 2011, 05:22:58 PM
 #40

HAHAHA, Largecoin?  You mean that amateur investment scam?

If you've got proof they are, feel free to share Smiley

Quote from: LargeCoin
at this time, we are unable to and will not raise funds from the public at large, nor will we be taking any deposits for advance product sales

Quote
And your conclusion is so fallacious nothing will change it. Just like the rest of the insane zealots here.

There seems to be a problem with posts disappearing in this thread, I'm sorry. Could you please repost your calculation where FPGA and ASIC mining needs higher instead of lower BTC price to be cost effective vs GPUs?



Idiot...just...I can't even.

Look, if I get insanely bored today I'll come back and take the piss out of you and your little sidekick, but I really don't care to right now.

Sorry.

But for anyone else watching, please, run the calculations yourself after a bit of research and see how stupid some people here can be when blinded by their bitcoin zealotry.

And if you arrive at the conclusion that FPGAs are a good investment for you, then throw some money at largecoin while you're at it.


LOL.
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