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[theboss]

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[1715390494]

1715390494

[hugolp]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chargeback

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

The problem is BTC is too easy to turn in to cash and credit cards are too easy to reverse.
The BTC vendor will lose 100% as well where if it's itunes cards they lose a portion.
For example on TradeHill has a very very small profit margin and has to do a lot of volume.
Exchange commissions will most likely go down making it an even smaller margin.

It's the same idea with Paypal. If we can do it we will but it's tough.

Jered

[Stephen Gornick]

What is stopping companies/business' from accepting credit/debit card payments for BTC?

In the U.S., one reason might be Federal Reserve regulation T, specifically the part regarding margin trading.

A credit card company extending you credit that is used to buy stocks would effectively be giving you a margin account and that has certain regulations including Regulation T.  So no credit card company will allow merchants to process charge transactions for funding brokerage accounts or to purchase equities.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

Hmm, so I assume selling physical goods that include bitcoins can just as easily be charged back?
Example: On eBay many sellers have 1 BTC for sale but also includes a physical plastic coin or whatever.

Would an agreement contact right before the final sale be illegal to use when a buyer tried to have a chargeback?
Example: You are agreeing to purchase digital goods that have value as a "online" currency but are also known to flucuate.
By agreeing you are acknowledging this fact and will not be allowed to chargeback your purchase for a reason this reason alone.

(Obviously it would be more detailed and in depth than this but I'm just giving an example.)

It's probably not going to help. You're essentially going to eat it if they claim you didn't deliver as a merchant.
They will just say "I opened the box and it was a phone book not a laptop" and you're toast.
Merchants lose a lot to this scam on Ebay every day.

Jered

[nefanon]

Hmm, so I assume selling physical goods that include bitcoins can just as easily be charged back?
Example: On eBay many sellers have 1 BTC for sale but also includes a physical plastic coin or whatever.

Would an agreement contact right before the final sale be illegal to use when a buyer tried to have a chargeback?
Example: You are agreeing to purchase digital goods that have value as a "online" currency but are also known to flucuate.
By agreeing you are acknowledging this fact and will not be allowed to chargeback your purchase for a reason this reason alone.

(Obviously it would be more detailed and in depth than this but I'm just giving an example.)

It's probably not going to help. You're essentially going to eat it if they claim you didn't deliver as a merchant.
They will just say "I opened the box and it was a phone book not a laptop" and you're toast.
Merchants lose a lot to this scam on Ebay every day.

Jered

Wouldn't the burden of proof be on the buyer at that point? Couldn't the seller just show delivery and signature confirmation?

[twobitcoins]

I thought the biggest problem was with stolen credit cards, not people performing chargebacks with their own cards.

It doesn't matter what communication happened between buyer and seller or what proof of delivery is provided if it wasn't the legitimate cardholder making the purchase.

[BitcoinRigs.com]

I thought the biggest problem was with stolen credit cards, not people performing chargebacks with their own cards.

It doesn't matter what communication happened between buyer and seller or what proof of delivery is provided if it wasn't the legitimate cardholder making the purchase.

With signed proof of delivery to the credit card billing address there is a good chance of successfully fighting a chargeback.

[nefanon]

With signed proof of delivery to the credit card billing address there is a good chance of successfully fighting a chargeback.

That's exactly what I wanted to hear!  =D   Anyone disagree?

[wolftaur]

Wouldn't the burden of proof be on the buyer at that point? Couldn't the seller just show delivery and signature confirmation?

Banks will basically always rule with the customer.

The customer is their customer, and the bank makes money from their deposits, and the bank makes a great deal of money from the swipe fees and skimming off the top of every transaction.

A bank will not give you, a merchant, someone they care nothing about, an impartial review in most cases. They know that if they make you eat the loss there is no harm to them whatsoever. They know that if they make the customer eat the loss the customer will stop swiping the card, and may even move their money somewhere else.

And lastly, yes, I can buy a laptop from you, and then receive a laptop. I can then call my bank and say you shipped a phone book.

Why do they even believe a story like that? Because back in the days when PayPal had policies restricting chargebacks and things like that, those things happened. A LOT. I, personally, bought a hard drive on eBay and received a small brick. A friend of mine bought a computer and received a box filled with random junk that had about the same total weight, including a bag full of broken action figures!

[lathomas64]

There is also an issue of the companies(credit, paypal, etc) in occasion themselves not allowing it. I know there was one site that used to do paypal for bitcoin that got shutdown by paypal.

[koin]

That's exactly what I wanted to hear!  =D   Anyone disagree?

yes -- most of the people who traded with the top 50 in this list would disagree that sellers have any decent chance of fighting a chargeback: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratings.php?sortby=neg_rating_recv_count&sortorder=DESC

[onesalt]

gee could it be something to do with bitcoin being very difficult to prove ownership or transference to a third party? I think it is.

[BitcoinRigs.com]

That's exactly what I wanted to hear!  =D   Anyone disagree?

yes -- most of the people who traded with the top 50 in this list would disagree that sellers have any decent chance of fighting a chargeback: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratings.php?sortby=neg_rating_recv_count&sortorder=DESC

That may be their opinion. But how many of them run an actual business? We do. And we win chargebacks. So from experience I can say that a signed proof of delivery goes a long way to fighting a chargeback.

[BitcoinRigs.com]

gee could it be something to do with bitcoin being very difficult to prove ownership or transference to a third party? I think it is.

Yes, it's difficult, but blockexplorer.com is a life-saver.  We have even won PayPal disputes for our Mining Rental Contracts, where there is no physical item shipped, in part because blockexplorer.com was able to identify the transfers.

[gw4tt]

its a huge target for fraud. Not only chargebacks but rampant use of stolen cc's would take place. I wouldn't expect to see anyone taking credit cards for BTC anytime soon if ever. The two just don't mix.

[Blackout]

Hmm, so I assume selling physical goods that include bitcoins can just as easily be charged back?
Example: On eBay many sellers have 1 BTC for sale but also includes a physical plastic coin or whatever.

Would an agreement contact right before the final sale be illegal to use when a buyer tried to have a chargeback?
Example: You are agreeing to purchase digital goods that have value as a "online" currency but are also known to flucuate.
By agreeing you are acknowledging this fact and will not be allowed to chargeback your purchase for a reason this reason alone.

(Obviously it would be more detailed and in depth than this but I'm just giving an example.)

Almost everyone trying to sell bitcoin is ebay is gettig scammed and charged back... it's nearly impossible to sell safely to real people who want to buy.. see my thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40048.msg500011

I came up with a bitcoin book that came with either 1, 2 or 3 bitcoins as a bonus, the book explained the basics, how to setup your wallet, and get your address, and came with a unique page 1 that was diffrent for everyone with a phrase, i wouldn't send the btc until after they got the registered book and sent the
phrase

ALL the buys were scammers and hacked accounts or pretending to be scammers, no one sent me the phrase.

Paypal sided with the buyer EVEN though I had signature delivery conf.

[WiseOldOwl]

gee could it be something to do with bitcoin being very difficult to prove ownership or transference to a third party? I think it is.

Yes, it's difficult, but blockexplorer.com is a life-saver.  We have even won PayPal disputes for our Mining Rental Contracts, where there is no physical item shipped, in part because blockexplorer.com was able to identify the transfers.

The future of crypto currency safety on chargebacks lies in a tool such as the blockexplorer. If when, where, and how much are decided in advance and made public or at least held by a trusted third party, then chargebacks can be fought because you can prove that you held up your end of the agreement.

[PLATO]

You can use credit card:

https://btc-now.appspot.com/
http://1209k.com/bitcoin/

[bitrebel]

Masons - One word answer, simple!
You control all banking, you control what people accept. Plain and simple.

We'll never see bitcoin fully integrated into the current system, because its the antithesis of the current slavery debt based fiat money system.

As long as people have to exchange their bitcoins for dollars, and banks are not going along, then bitcoins will only be alongside the current system, but it will never be fully integrated. Someone who accepts Mastercard today, will likely not be doing it tomorrow. Unfortunately.