Idea about a new blockchain

[ttookk]

Ok, I think you explained everything this time, little to no questions remaining

(…)

- The block reward is <Base number of PERSEUS> * <Number of coupons included> + <fees from deploying smart contracts and so on>.

This is also correct. Miners will be rewarded with block reward, all the fees, and all the fees generated by the Gas-PoW.

(…)

I would consider a different approach: The block reward should be equal to a base number multiplied by the "coupons" of the Gas-PoW.

Let's say, you want a maximum block reward of 50 Perseus per block and you have a maximum of 10 000 Gas-PoW-coupons per block, the block reward would be calculated like

(<number of Gas-PoW-coupons>*0,005)+<regular fees>

Having a fixed block reward plus fees has no advantages. In fact, this could lead to miners mining empty blocks, as it is happening from time to time on the BTC chain.

[Mt. Dempo]

maybe I'm not very familiar with the technology you are talking about, but as good as any ideas and technology that we create, if without the support or permission from the government then I'm sure will be futile. whether it can be mass adopted while the government does not recommend it?

[the_zhang_wei]

Ok, I think you explained everything this time, little to no questions remaining

(…)

- The block reward is <Base number of PERSEUS> * <Number of coupons included> + <fees from deploying smart contracts and so on>.

This is also correct. Miners will be rewarded with block reward, all the fees, and all the fees generated by the Gas-PoW.

(…)

I would consider a different approach: The block reward should be equal to a base number multiplied by the "coupons" of the Gas-PoW.

Let's say, you want a maximum block reward of 50 Perseus per block and you have a maximum of 10 000 Gas-PoW-coupons per block, the block reward would be calculated like

(<number of Gas-PoW-coupons>*0,005)+<regular fees>

Having a fixed block reward plus fees has no advantages. In fact, this could lead to miners mining empty blocks, as it is happening from time to time on the BTC chain.

This is a super interesting idea, now I see your point and I like it. I think it should have a fixed (say 5) block reward to bootstrap the network then it should reduce that to the amount of fees (feeds + PoW-gas fees) * 10 (up to 5). By doing so miners will forced to process as much transactions as possible per block.

maybe I'm not very familiar with the technology you are talking about, but as good as any ideas and technology that we create, if without the support or permission from the government then I'm sure will be futile. whether it can be mass adopted while the government does not recommend it?

I'm an anarchist. I'm never going to work with a government. If you like those kind of projects (Sponsored from a government and centralized) you can invest into $NEO.

[ttookk]

I guess I've been thinking about this thing way too long now, especially since there's other stuff I have to work on

Anyway, here are some more thoughts:

The following might not be a problem at all, but it's still something to consider.

I think giving users the ability to choose whether they want to pay via Gas-PoW or pay a regular fee might turn into a problem, because it will be very hard to find a way to keep this fair. When blocks get full eventually, users will start to pay higher fees to get into blocks, while with the PoW, there is no such option, at least not if you follow my model (So maybe it wasn't such a good idea after all). You could make a variation, where users could offer more coupons per TX to have their TX processed faster, but that doesn't scale very well. You can't process, say, hundred thousands of Gas-PoW-coupons per block, because the overhead would eat too much into the blockspace. But if a standart TX would only have one Gas-PoW-coupon as a minimum, to provide more coupons to get processed faster would mean you'd have to double the PoW time. After that, the increments get smaller, obviously, but regular fees would still scale better.

Solving this would mean to either give certain types of TXs one type of payment, not two, or dedicate certain percentages of the blockspace to different payment types. This would still mean that if the coupon half is full, a user could send with a regular fee to get it resolved faster, but this wouldn't make them both interfere.

This is a super interesting idea, now I see your point and I like it. I think it should have a fixed (say 5) block reward to bootstrap the network then it should reduce that to the amount of fees (feeds + PoW-gas fees) * 10 (up to 5). By doing so miners will forced to process as much transactions as possible per block.

Yes, having a small fixed block reward might be a good idea. I think I wouldn't make it bigger than 10% of the maximum possible blockreward.

maybe I'm not very familiar with the technology you are talking about, but as good as any ideas and technology that we create, if without the support or permission from the government then I'm sure will be futile. whether it can be mass adopted while the government does not recommend it?

I'm an anarchist. I'm never going to work with a government. If you like those kind of projects (Sponsored from a government and centralized) you can invest into $NEO.

I'm pretty sure that was just a "need to reach my weekly post count to get my signature bounty" post with little to no meaningful thought put into it, but props for the answer anyway

[the_zhang_wei]

I guess I've been thinking about this thing way too long now, especially since there's other stuff I have to work on

Anyway, here are some more thoughts:

The following might not be a problem at all, but it's still something to consider.

I think giving users the ability to choose whether they want to pay via Gas-PoW or pay a regular fee might turn into a problem, because it will be very hard to find a way to keep this fair. When blocks get full eventually, users will start to pay higher fees to get into blocks, while with the PoW, there is no such option, at least not if you follow my model (So maybe it wasn't such a good idea after all). You could make a variation, where users could offer more coupons per TX to have their TX processed faster, but that doesn't scale very well. You can't process, say, hundred thousands of Gas-PoW-coupons per block, because the overhead would eat too much into the blockspace. But if a standart TX would only have one Gas-PoW-coupon as a minimum, to provide more coupons to get processed faster would mean you'd have to double the PoW time. After that, the increments get smaller, obviously, but regular fees would still scale better.

Yes, the PoW-Gas would be small, like maybe 40 hexa digits? And people can include more than one coupon if they need more gas for their transaction. The innovation here is the PoW-Gas to Gas itself (almost forgot the way the blockchain is organized into sub-chains per smart-contract).

I'm not complete sure if the pay with gas (and therefore $Perseus) should be included, I think it should be for two reasons:

  * It will give value to the native currency (otherwise it would be needed only for creating smart contract).
  * If someone don't care about the native currency, they still have the chance to use our blockchain to persist data. I believe choice is important here, you can either pay or waste some CPU time. I think that's fair.

Yes, having a small fixed block reward might be a good idea. I think I wouldn't make it bigger than 10% of the maximum possible blockreward.

I think that's reasonable. I need to find time to update the whitepaper. Your feedback is so important! Thank you!

[ttookk]

(…)

 * It will give value to the native currency (otherwise it would be needed only for creating smart contract).
  * If someone don't care about the native currency, they still have the chance to use our blockchain to persist data. I believe choice is important here, you can either pay or waste some CPU time. I think that's fair.

(…)

Yes, this is something I ponder as well. After all, with a focus on the possibility that you don't have to pay for stuff, there is definitely a problem with giving the token value.

Maybe the ability to pay for TXs instead of using Gas-PoW is enough, but as I said before, I think this will create a problem: There's going to be times, where it is just faster to send a regularly paid TX, while I doubt that this will happen with Gas-PoW.

I have no idea how much of  problem this is going to be, but a possible solution would be to have rules which define the maximum allowed regularly paid TXs; I think you won't need an upper limit for Gas-PoW TXs, because they will always be cheaper.

Here is another problem with the way I described it above and that I just might not understand correctly:

I was thinking that maybe, a Gas-PoW TXs can provide more PoW-coupons per TX, but that won't work. If you have a "max coupons per Block" rule, compared to the maximum gas rule, for a miner, there is no financial difference between taking 100 TXs with 100 coupons each, or 1000 TX with 10 coupons each.

How does Ethereum solve this? Don't they have the same problem?

Your feedback is so important! Thank you!

Thank you

But I think it is important to somehow get more people on board. I have no idea how to do this, but this forum obviously doen't work; there's just the two of us having a conversation in the open and nobody else seems interested.

[ttookk]

Looks like the_zhang_wei has been absent for some time, but my head is still working... I am not sure whether you would need a Ethereum style monetary backbone at all, if you get the incentives correctly. This goes beyond the scope of this project, but it's something I'll be spending some time on.

I've been thinking about this a bit now. I am aware of projects like Hyperledger, but all non-monetary blockchains I know of are private, because they obviously are vulnerable.

In classic blockchains, the monetary part is extremely important to support network security; messing with the blockchain is extremely expensive.

Private blockchains solve this problem by only allowing certain actors to write blocks. Bad actors can therefore be identified and shut out.

I think there are ways to make non-monetary, open blockchains work. I haven't come around to writing my ideas down, but with some luck, I'll have some time in the next months.

What I would like to know is, are there other projects working on something like this?

[the_zhang_wei]

Looks like the_zhang_wei has been absent for some time, but my head is still working... I am not sure whether you would need a Ethereum style monetary backbone at all, if you get the incentives correctly. This goes beyond the scope of this project, but it's something I'll be spending some time on.

I'm back, I've been spending my time building a prototype and thinking how to fund the project to go full time doing it to get at least a maintest out quickly.

I quickly realized that having multiple chains is great (one per blockchain), but it could happen in the near future after after the main-net launches.

I think the monetary is essential to incentivize miners to secure the network.

[lakatina]

You should explore some of the EOS ideas, it's pretty amazing

[ttookk]

Looks like the_zhang_wei has been absent for some time, but my head is still working... I am not sure whether you would need a Ethereum style monetary backbone at all, if you get the incentives correctly. This goes beyond the scope of this project, but it's something I'll be spending some time on.

I'm back, I've been spending my time building a prototype and thinking how to fund the project to go full time doing it to get at least a maintest out quickly.

I quickly realized that having multiple chains is great (one per blockchain), but it could happen in the near future after after the main-net launches.

I think the monetary is essential to incentivize miners to secure the network.

Yes, I think for what you are working on, a monetary part is in fact essential. I'm not sure whether we talked about this before, but did you think about using an already existing Blockchain as a base layer, like Ethereum?

Admittedly, I have no idea if and how that would work, but it would solve the whole "why does the token have value?" problem.

You should explore some of the EOS ideas, it's pretty amazing

EOS is bullshit riding on the blockchain wave.

If you think EOS is "pretty amazing", I suggest you take a closer look at why the hell blockchains exist in the first place.

[the_zhang_wei]

You should explore some of the EOS ideas, it's pretty amazing

EOS is bullshit riding on the blockchain wave.

If you think EOS is "pretty amazing", I suggest you take a closer look at why the hell blockchains exist in the first place.

Well said, if anyone think EOS is the answer then most likely they are asking the wrong question.

[the_zhang_wei]

Quick update, I managed to talk to 2 more developers, I explained my idea and they liked it. We're talking what is needed to build a prototype and then a testnet.

I think Andromeda is finally taking shape. Thanks to anyone who helped in this thread, has been of huge value.

Will keep you guys posted.

[ttookk]

Quick update, I managed to talk to 2 more developers, I explained my idea and they liked it. We're talking what is needed to build a prototype and then a testnet.

I think Andromeda is finally taking shape. Thanks to anyone who helped in this thread, has been of huge value.

Will keep you guys posted.

Nice!

Let me know if I can be of help. My abilities are coming up with solutions for problems that don't exist and then poking holes in those solutions

I can also try to make a logo or something...

[Apiapik]

Yes, I think for what you do, the monetary part is in fact very important. I'm not sure if we talked about it before, but do you think about using an existing Blockchain as a base layer, like Ethereum. As a technological advancement, the state should be able to make it happen

[the_zhang_wei]

We decided to create a tiny ICO to fund the project, let's hope this can help us (myself working full time and 3 devs working part time in the project) raise funds to work full time and deliver the main net as soon as possible.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4684110.msg42267403