Bebop
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September 08, 2011, 03:20:03 AM |
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If all they are doing is sending bitcoins from different addresses, why not just do this yourself? It isn't too hard to setup a few different wallets and send coins back and forth between them at random.
I mean, maybe I'm missing something here, but 5% plus transaction fee adds up to a lot for something you can do yourself.
Can someone with knowledge please post an answer for this question from echris1. Especially if you add Tor in the mix, is it not very easy just to anonymize your own coin trail with a bunch of self initiated / self receive transfers? |
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nmat
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September 08, 2011, 03:57:55 AM
Last edit: September 08, 2011, 04:08:41 AM by nmat |
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Can someone with knowledge please post an answer for this question from echris1. Especially if you add Tor in the mix, is it not very easy just to anonymize your own coin trail with a bunch of self initiated / self receive transfers?
If those addresses aren't used anywhere else, it may not be thay simple... Check here: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/72/how-is-it-possible-to-launder-bitcoins/ |
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FreeMonies
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September 08, 2011, 04:33:18 AM |
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If Magic The Gathering Online Exchange wins their case, will this even be considered an issue? They're trying (and some what succeeding) to convince the courts that BC is commodity and therefore not subject to currency laws.
Also, besides spreading your BC around, why would any one need to launder an anonymous currency?
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Explodicle
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September 08, 2011, 12:55:00 PM |
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If Magic The Gathering Online Exchange wins their case, will this even be considered an issue? They're trying (and some what succeeding) to convince the courts that BC is commodity and therefore not subject to currency laws.
Also, besides spreading your BC around, why would any one need to launder an anonymous currency?
It's not anonymous. If you don't intentionally cover your tracks, your transactions can be tracked. So if you want to buy something using Bitcoins from MtGox, the mafia (or whoever) could pressure MtGox into revealing your receiving address. From there they just follow the block chain. |
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Bebop
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September 08, 2011, 01:12:10 PM |
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Thank you for the link good sir. Indeed it answered some questions. |
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FreeMonies
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September 08, 2011, 02:22:20 PM |
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If Magic The Gathering Online Exchange wins their case, will this even be considered an issue? They're trying (and some what succeeding) to convince the courts that BC is commodity and therefore not subject to currency laws.
Also, besides spreading your BC around, why would any one need to launder an anonymous currency?
It's not anonymous. If you don't intentionally cover your tracks, your transactions can be tracked. So if you want to buy something using Bitcoins from MtGox, the mafia (or whoever) could pressure MtGox into revealing your receiving address. From there they just follow the block chain. Forgive me, the two statements were meant to made separate from each other. How could you be found out if you didnt use an exchange like Magic The Gathering Online Exchange? |
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Explodicle
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September 08, 2011, 03:51:34 PM |
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If Magic The Gathering Online Exchange wins their case, will this even be considered an issue? They're trying (and some what succeeding) to convince the courts that BC is commodity and therefore not subject to currency laws.
Also, besides spreading your BC around, why would any one need to launder an anonymous currency?
It's not anonymous. If you don't intentionally cover your tracks, your transactions can be tracked. So if you want to buy something using Bitcoins from MtGox, the mafia (or whoever) could pressure MtGox into revealing your receiving address. From there they just follow the block chain. Forgive me, the two statements were meant to made separate from each other. How could you be found out if you didnt use an exchange like Magic The Gathering Online Exchange? Depends on how you obtain them and use them. Potential vulnerabilities include your mining pool operator giving up your IP address, vendors giving up your snail mail address, etc. Regarding the MtGox case, I still think these services are important even if it's legal. There are many reasons to want privacy besides breaking the law. |
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CoinLab
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September 08, 2011, 06:23:48 PM |
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Presumably the bitcoins moving though laundry services are (disproportate to the rest of BTC economy) ill-gotten gains. There is a reason they are willing to pay 5% right?
So, while these laundry services can disconnect you from bitcoins that were your own ill gotten gains, doesn't it probably link you to other crimes instead? Wouldn't just depositing your coins into fresh MtGox account (that you only connected to over TOR) and withdrawing them a few days later be much more effective, because you would be mixing them with legitimate coins (and for a smaller %)?
The laundry service doesn't need to use its own wallet. It could use several of the free online wallet services. The mybitcoin incident illustrated why one would need to use multiple. So long as some of the services along the "chain" preserve your privacy, you should remain anonymous. Kinda like Tor for money. All you are paying for is technical expertise and better strategies like random timed transfers and multiple branches. Right? Maybe I've missed something. Getting an empty wallet wont help, unless the online wallet service automatically shuffles the sent and received coins with each other. To simplify my question: 1. It costs 5% so why would somebody with 'clean' coins launder them? 2. If all the coins in the laundry are dirty, aren't you just receiving someone else's dirty coins? Do the laundries have some way to get 'fresh' coins? 3. Say you received coins that cops KNOW were used in a drug sale. Is "No officer, those are just the coins I received when I was laundering my coins... for fun...?" a valid defense? What could you say? These services don't seem very wise to me... |
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Binford 6100
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September 08, 2011, 07:02:20 PM |
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To simplify ...
let's assume none of the coins are dirty just all owners are sensitive to their privacy. they have their bitcoin addresses linked to their personal information either by the means of an exchanger or similar counterparty. what they expect from the laundry is a degree of decorrelation where there would be no direct connection of the originating bitcoin address to the addresses that hold the coins after the exercise. imo it's more about mixing and randomizing then washing dirty coins clean. how would you recognize dirty coins? from a list of registered scams? do you run an illegal drug selling operation that generates income dirty by definition? is your wallet harvesting trojan successful and need to move some coins? |
You can't build a reputation on what you are going to do.
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Explodicle
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September 08, 2011, 07:05:11 PM |
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Getting an empty wallet wont help, unless the online wallet service automatically shuffles the sent and received coins with each other.
To simplify my question:
1. It costs 5% so why would somebody with 'clean' coins launder them?
2. If all the coins in the laundry are dirty, aren't you just receiving someone else's dirty coins? Do the laundries have some way to get 'fresh' coins?
3. Say you received coins that cops KNOW were used in a drug sale. Is "No officer, those are just the coins I received when I was laundering my coins... for fun...?" a valid defense? What could you say?
These services don't seem very wise to me...
Some services do shuffle coins. You can check which ones by sending them some money and watching to see if it gets moved into a larger wallet. The ones with cold storage should be more likely to mix coins. 1. Any desire for privacy. Buying porn, booze, dildos... 2. The exchanges would be a good source of fresh coins, since they do get shuffled there and have a large pool. Automated services are happy to accept "dirty" coins. 3. Lawyer up. You have a case, but by then you're already in trouble. IANAL but I think they would have to prove each crime (drugs and laundering), not just that you committed at least one of them. You should encrypt every wallet you want kept private. |
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gen. specific
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September 09, 2011, 01:40:19 AM |
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Money Laundering - the crime - is ONLY the act of concealing the origin of illicit funds.
If origin is not illicit, no crime has been committed. No matter if you use remittance services, buy diamonds for no reason, western union, offshore entities etc.
The burden of proof is on the accuser to determine the origin of the funds.
This is also usually ONLY a crime when tax evasion is involved, this is the only time a multijurisidictional cooperation will be saught for a money laundering case. (in USA, it is also illegal to pay taxes on actual illicit money laundered funds)
So again, concealing the origin of funds is not inherently illegal.
bye
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bitwitfit
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September 13, 2011, 05:11:11 PM |
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I have been using bitlaundary to just maintain my anonymity and privacy. I already use TOR/proxies to access pornsites, conspiracy theory and other such sites. And I used such “laundary” services so I could easily buy stuff on the sites I mentioned earlier. As you can see its not a crime. Such services are needed and just act like TOR. BUT I just noticed that http://app.bitlaundry.com/ now upped their fees to 10%!! Yes, I understand its a risky business and I was fine with their 5% fee. But the fee just keeps going up. So I am looking for an alternative. Any suggestions? |
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