Ethereum: 2nd gen cryptocurrency with contract programming, "dagger" hashing

[td services]

How much are you investing?  It seems to me that the more people invest, the worse off for everyone in terms of ROI, am I correct?

Haven't decided. Still need to see details.

As far as investment levels and dilution, there is a sweet spot up to which additional investment reduces risk and accelerates product to market and allowing more features to be created in parallel, yielding the same ROI in a given time frame. Beyond this point, the start-up is overcapitalized and diluted, reducing ROI, since there is more investment than the organization can handle. It would be like trying to make a baby in 1 month by putting 9 women on it.

[HinnomTX]

It wasn't invisible, but it was cut short with no advance notice to prevent further dilution of existing investment. A week later, they started selling NXT at a 4762% markup (yes, that's over 47X original purchase price).

NXT is number 2 on the scamcoin poll, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361286.0 .

That poll is pretty ridiculous. Have you downloaded some of these alt-coin wallets and noticed that they all look the same? They are all copies of BTC. The alt-coins exist to give GPU miners something to kick around.

I made an investment in NXT because it was new code and was written to be highly extensible. Certainly, the NXT pre-launch was completely screwed up, and the Jan. 3 launch was overshadowed by DDoS attacks and a hack on DGEX. Turning 21 BTCs into 38000 BTCs in 6 weeks is bound to upset a few people. It's not mineable so it alienates many in this community anyway. But, the uniqueness and the feature set of NXT justify the market cap.

Here's a pro tip. Use your GPU hardware to mine a profitable Scrypt coin while you can, sell the coin, and buy the PoS coins, e.g. PPC, NXT, YAC, DEM, and future PoS coins.  Private ASIC developers, driven by greed, will come to control all PoW coins, even Ether, and will ultimately destroy their utility.

[msin]

... divide the IPO price by 1000 and multiply every other number by 1000. There, the coin is now "cheap". Better yet, denominate everything in terms of "wei" -- "wow, I can have a quadrillion coins for a satoshi? Deal!"

I'm still puzzled as to why the initial offering price is at all important here.

Because it's a POW coin.  People want to know if it makes more sense to buy it or mine it.  

Absolutely doesn't matter. Mining output scales as the amount of initial issued currency. The only thing that matters is how much BTC is invested in the first place, not what denomination that BTC is converted to.

Now if mining output did not depend linearily on the amount of issued currency (if it were 50 coins/block like BTC, for instance), then there would be a difference, and your point would be correct.

Are you joking? Do I spend 1BTC for 8k Ether during IPO, or do I wait and mine because I think there will be a supply of 600mil Ether after the IPO, and 30Mil Ether will be mined, and I can earn 8k no problem.  Also, the price per Ether is very important when considering how many resources will go into mining in the first year.

[msin]

How much are you investing?  It seems to me that the more people invest, the worse off for everyone in terms of ROI, am I correct?

Haven't decided. Still need to see details.

As far as investment levels and dilution, there is a sweet spot up to which additional investment reduces risk and accelerates product to market and allowing more features to be created in parallel, yielding the same ROI in a given time frame. Beyond this point, the start-up is overcapitalized and diluted, reducing ROI, since there is more investment than the organization can handle. It would be like trying to make a baby in 1 month by putting 9 women on it.

Haha, I like that.  Do you have investment in Nxt?  I will give you some if you want to create an account and PM me.  That way you can at least see why the coin doesn't belong on the scam list.

[td services]

It wasn't invisible, but it was cut short with no advance notice to prevent further dilution of existing investment. A week later, they started selling NXT at a 4762% markup (yes, that's over 47X original purchase price).

NXT is number 2 on the scamcoin poll, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361286.0 .

That poll is pretty ridiculous. Have you downloaded some of these alt-coin wallets and noticed that they all look the same? They are all copies of BTC. The alt-coins exist to give GPU miners something to kick around.

I made an investment in NXT because it was new code and was written to be highly extensible. Certainly, the NXT pre-launch was completely screwed up, and the Jan. 3 launch was overshadowed by DDoS attacks and a hack on DGEX. Turning 21 BTCs into 38000 BTCs in 6 weeks is bound to upset a few people. It's not mineable so it alienates many in this community anyway. But, the uniqueness and the feature set of NXT justify the market cap.

Here's a pro tip. Use your GPU hardware to mine a profitable Scrypt coin while you can, sell the coin, and buy the PoS coins, e.g. PPC, NXT, YAC, DEM, and future PoS coins.  Private ASIC developers, driven by greed, will come to control all PoW coins, even Ether, and will ultimately destroy their utility.

I favor PoS next gen coins as well, like DAC concept. I'd rather Ethereum was pure PoS, but really like the rest of the project.

I liked the NXT a lot and it was on my hotlist since it had code in beta, even though the docs were sketchy and with the cloak and dagger drama going on. My big beef is how the pre-sale was handled (having the door slammed my face-hard to be objective), and their continued refusal to acknowledge the real reason for ending the sale without advance notice. Regardless of how good the tech is, the character of the NXT founders is questionable.

[HinnomTX]

How much are you investing?  It seems to me that the more people invest, the worse off for everyone in terms of ROI, am I correct?

Haven't decided. Still need to see details.

As far as investment levels and dilution, there is a sweet spot up to which additional investment reduces risk and accelerates product to market and allowing more features to be created in parallel, yielding the same ROI in a given time frame. Beyond this point, the start-up is overcapitalized and diluted, reducing ROI, since there is more investment than the organization can handle. It would be like trying to make a baby in 1 month by putting 9 women on it.

Good analogy. To me, as a potential investor, the IPO looks slightly overpriced. But, there's huge potential future dilution, AND there's a pre-mine. This looks like a raw deal. No BTCs for these guys b/c they are taking BTC AND Ethers. It's a double dip. They should work to boost their stock (Ethers) to align their interests with ours. I'm just going to mine some Ethers and see how they price out in 5 years.  This offers the lowest risk and lowest capital costs (assuming you already have the computing hardware).

[LeoC]

Are you joking? Do I spend 1BTC for 8k Ether during IPO, or do I wait and mine because I think there will be a supply of 600mil Ether after the IPO, and 30Mil Ether will be mined, and I can earn 8k no problem.  Also, the price per Ether is very important when considering how many resources will go into mining in the first year.

You nailed it. The IPO price would only make sense if the coins were scarce, but since they are not (the exact opposite even), there is no reason to put money into the IPO.
Miners in the first year will make 10000x more Ether than all the Ether paid out to investors and the inflated price will drop leaving every investor holding a bag.
If you invested 10 BTC and received 100,000 Ether. That's NOTHING. With 1.4 trillion fully diluted, and the first year spitting out the most for miners. We can expect to see 100 million or more being mined this year.
Ether would have to be EXTREMELY difficult to mine, with no possibility of botnet or ASIC. If even one ASIC hits the market, everyone who invested in the IPO will be completely fucked. This is IMMENSELY risky.

[td services]

It involves more than scarcity. There is also utility - what the coin can do, and velocity - how much it is used. These factors combine to to determine value in terms of purchasing power. It is tricky, though, to balance a premine presale against PoW mining. I'd rather see the PoW mining dropped and just use PoS.

[HinnomTX]

It wasn't invisible, but it was cut short with no advance notice to prevent further dilution of existing investment. A week later, they started selling NXT at a 4762% markup (yes, that's over 47X original purchase price).

NXT is number 2 on the scamcoin poll, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361286.0 .

That poll is pretty ridiculous. Have you downloaded some of these alt-coin wallets and noticed that they all look the same? They are all copies of BTC. The alt-coins exist to give GPU miners something to kick around.

I made an investment in NXT because it was new code and was written to be highly extensible. Certainly, the NXT pre-launch was completely screwed up, and the Jan. 3 launch was overshadowed by DDoS attacks and a hack on DGEX. Turning 21 BTCs into 38000 BTCs in 6 weeks is bound to upset a few people. It's not mineable so it alienates many in this community anyway. But, the uniqueness and the feature set of NXT justify the market cap.

Here's a pro tip. Use your GPU hardware to mine a profitable Scrypt coin while you can, sell the coin, and buy the PoS coins, e.g. PPC, NXT, YAC, DEM, and future PoS coins.  Private ASIC developers, driven by greed, will come to control all PoW coins, even Ether, and will ultimately destroy their utility.

I favor PoS next gen coins as well, like DAC concept. I'd rather Ethereum was pure PoS, but really like the rest of the project.

I liked the NXT a lot and it was on my hotlist since it had code in beta, even though the docs were sketchy and with the cloak and dagger drama going on. My big beef is how the pre-sale was handled (having the door slammed my face-hard to be objective), and their continued refusal to acknowledge the real reason for ending the sale without advance notice. Regardless of how good the tech is, the character of the NXT founders is questionable.

Yeah, I've not heard a believable straight answer about the pre-sale debacle. I got in much later than pre-sale (mid-December), but my investment is still currently in the black.  I think that over time, the rocky start will be a side note in history, and the success of the NXT platform will be driven by its feature set, small environmental footprint, and ease of use (currently a nightmare for a pedestrian to install and use, but that is fixable).

I'm going to mine Ethereum. I might even go VPS and mine the shit out of Ethereum in the beginning. But, after the recent bout of scam coins (e.g. VisaCoin and Neon), I'm out on giving money to strangers. The BTC-based IPO hopefuls need to know that the capital well here has been poisoned. They need to get more creative about how they want to launch.
 
 

[td services]

How much are you investing?  It seems to me that the more people invest, the worse off for everyone in terms of ROI, am I correct?

Haven't decided. Still need to see details.

As far as investment levels and dilution, there is a sweet spot up to which additional investment reduces risk and accelerates product to market and allowing more features to be created in parallel, yielding the same ROI in a given time frame. Beyond this point, the start-up is overcapitalized and diluted, reducing ROI, since there is more investment than the organization can handle. It would be like trying to make a baby in 1 month by putting 9 women on it.

Haha, I like that.  Do you have investment in Nxt?  I will give you some if you want to create an account and PM me.  That way you can at least see why the coin doesn't belong on the scam list.

Thanks for offer, will let you know when I have the client installed.

[LeoC]

Utility can not be determined until post release. Which is why I am against an IPO. For this IPO to work, I would need this proof:

1. There will be is utility.
2. The coin will be uncommon enough and have the proper mining difficulty to warrant the asking price of 0.0001 BTC.
3. The Turing complete contracts are secure from viruses, malware, adware, wallet steelers, keyloggers, and any other malicious code.
4. A list of all founders that will be receiving a large portion of the currency.
5. The system is safe from both botnets and ASICs. This is crucial because investors will be completely screwed over should one of these be applied.

[td services]

It wasn't invisible, but it was cut short with no advance notice to prevent further dilution of existing investment. A week later, they started selling NXT at a 4762% markup (yes, that's over 47X original purchase price).

NXT is number 2 on the scamcoin poll, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361286.0 .

That poll is pretty ridiculous. Have you downloaded some of these alt-coin wallets and noticed that they all look the same? They are all copies of BTC. The alt-coins exist to give GPU miners something to kick around.

I made an investment in NXT because it was new code and was written to be highly extensible. Certainly, the NXT pre-launch was completely screwed up, and the Jan. 3 launch was overshadowed by DDoS attacks and a hack on DGEX. Turning 21 BTCs into 38000 BTCs in 6 weeks is bound to upset a few people. It's not mineable so it alienates many in this community anyway. But, the uniqueness and the feature set of NXT justify the market cap.

Here's a pro tip. Use your GPU hardware to mine a profitable Scrypt coin while you can, sell the coin, and buy the PoS coins, e.g. PPC, NXT, YAC, DEM, and future PoS coins.  Private ASIC developers, driven by greed, will come to control all PoW coins, even Ether, and will ultimately destroy their utility.

I favor PoS next gen coins as well, like DAC concept. I'd rather Ethereum was pure PoS, but really like the rest of the project.

I liked the NXT a lot and it was on my hotlist since it had code in beta, even though the docs were sketchy and with the cloak and dagger drama going on. My big beef is how the pre-sale was handled (having the door slammed my face-hard to be objective), and their continued refusal to acknowledge the real reason for ending the sale without advance notice. Regardless of how good the tech is, the character of the NXT founders is questionable.

Yeah, I've not heard a believable straight answer about the pre-sale debacle. I got in much later than pre-sale (mid-December), but my investment is still currently in the black.  I think that over time, the rocky start will be a side note in history, and the success of the NXT platform will be driven by its feature set, small environmental footprint, and ease of use (currently a nightmare for a pedestrian to install and use, but that is fixable).

I'm going to mine Ethereum. I might even go VPS and mine the shit out of Ethereum in the beginning. But, after the recent bout of scam coins (e.g. VisaCoin and Neon), I'm out on giving money to strangers. The BTC-based IPO hopefuls need to know that the capital well here has been poisoned. They need to get more creative about how they want to launch.
 
 

It's too bad scam projects poison the well for the good ones. I look carefully at the proposal, the commentary on it, the people involved, and alpha or beta releases. Ethereum has a very good pedigree from the people involved and a solid proposal. From what I've heard, the investment round will be very well done, but still don't know the details. I've been fortunate to miss out on the true scam coins, and don't even really consider NXT to be in the same class as most of the scammy alt coins - more like what you say above.

[HinnomTX]

How much are you investing?  It seems to me that the more people invest, the worse off for everyone in terms of ROI, am I correct?

Haven't decided. Still need to see details.

As far as investment levels and dilution, there is a sweet spot up to which additional investment reduces risk and accelerates product to market and allowing more features to be created in parallel, yielding the same ROI in a given time frame. Beyond this point, the start-up is overcapitalized and diluted, reducing ROI, since there is more investment than the organization can handle. It would be like trying to make a baby in 1 month by putting 9 women on it.

Haha, I like that.  Do you have investment in Nxt?  I will give you some if you want to create an account and PM me.  That way you can at least see why the coin doesn't belong on the scam list.

Thanks for offer, will let you know when I have the client installed.

I'll send you some NXT too. It's not a scam coin, but I will officially call NXT a real coin once they get a real exchange e.g. Vircurex.

[td services]

Utility can not be determined until post release. Which is why I am against an IPO. For this IPO to work, I would need this proof:

1. There will be is utility.
2. The coin will be uncommon enough and have the proper mining difficulty to warrant the asking price of 0.0001 BTC.
3. The Turing complete contracts are secure from viruses, malware, adware, wallet steelers, keyloggers, and any other malicious code.
4. A list of all founders that will be receiving a large portion of the currency.
5. The system is safe from both botnets and ASICs. This is crucial because investors will be completely screwed over should one of these be applied.

I much prefer the IPO model to PoW mining, but the ROI, affected by #2,  has to be sufficient to justify the risks 1, 3, 4, and 5 mentioned above. I would call this a seed round or pre-sale, not IPO. Seed capital has a much higher risk and potential ROI than IPO capital.

[LeoC]

Man I want this IPO to be the real deal and a success to all investors but it just looks so highly unlikely.
If my above points were dealt with then I'd be happy to toss my money at them.

[td services]

Man I want this IPO to be the real deal and a success to all investors but it just looks so highly unlikely.
If my above points were dealt with then I'd be happy to toss my money at them.

I would consider it a high risk investment with a potentially very high return - much lower risk than NXT was (I was going to invest 1 BTC in NXT), less risk than Mastercoin was, similar risk to Bitshares. Don't put your life savings into it, or any more than you are willing to lose.

[nexern]

Are you joking? Do I spend 1BTC for 8k Ether during IPO, or do I wait and mine because I think there will be a supply of 600mil Ether after the IPO, and 30Mil Ether will be mined, and I can earn 8k no problem.  Also, the price per Ether is very important when considering how many resources will go into mining in the first year.

You nailed it. The IPO price would only make sense if the coins were scarce, but since they are not (the exact opposite even), there is no reason to put money into the IPO.
Miners in the first year will make 10000x more Ether than all the Ether paid out to investors and the inflated price will drop leaving every investor holding a bag.
If you invested 10 BTC and received 100,000 Ether. That's NOTHING. With 1.4 trillion fully diluted, and the first year spitting out the most for miners. We can expect to see 100 million or more being mined this year.
Ether would have to be EXTREMELY difficult to mine, with no possibility of botnet or ASIC. If even one ASIC hits the market, everyone who invested in the IPO will be completely fucked. This is IMMENSELY risky.

did i miss something, is ether botnet resistant?
if so, how?

[xyzzyx]

I'm going to mine Ethereum. I might even go VPS and mine the shit out of Ethereum in the beginning.

Exactly.  I plan on investing in this IPO, but at this point it looks like it's going to be a very small amount just for this reason.  If I can mine the same or greater on a set of VPSes for less than the IPO price, then mining is clearly the way to go.

But, after the recent bout of scam coins (e.g. VisaCoin and Neon), I'm out on giving money to strangers. The BTC-based IPO hopefuls need to know that the capital well here has been poisoned. They need to get more creative about how they want to launch.

Giving away money for an IPO is risky, and the higher the total amounts given to a group the more people may perceive it as being unfair.

This is something I noticed about Counterparty and their Proof-of-Burn distribution model: PoB is a cognitive hack.  It short-circuits people's sense of fairness.

The Counterparty Project has two Bitcoin addresses set up: one for donations, and one for Proof-of-Burn.  The donation address, which benefits the development of Counterparty, has received nearly no funding.  The Proof-of-Burn address has received nearly one million US dollars worth of Bitcoin so far, and the burn period is still on-going.

It's crazy!

(Not that crazy is necessarily bad.  I admit I've done three burns for XCP myself.)

[msin]

How much are you investing?  It seems to me that the more people invest, the worse off for everyone in terms of ROI, am I correct?

Haven't decided. Still need to see details.

As far as investment levels and dilution, there is a sweet spot up to which additional investment reduces risk and accelerates product to market and allowing more features to be created in parallel, yielding the same ROI in a given time frame. Beyond this point, the start-up is overcapitalized and diluted, reducing ROI, since there is more investment than the organization can handle. It would be like trying to make a baby in 1 month by putting 9 women on it.

Haha, I like that.  Do you have investment in Nxt?  I will give you some if you want to create an account and PM me.  That way you can at least see why the coin doesn't belong on the scam list.

Thanks for offer, will let you know when I have the client installed.

I'll send you some NXT too. It's not a scam coin, but I will officially call NXT a real coin once they get a real exchange e.g. Vircurex.

That is happening in a couple days, got some Nxt waiting for you td!

[Come-from-Beyond]

It wasn't invisible, but it was cut short with no advance notice to prevent further dilution of existing investment.

I bet u won't be able to provide a quote of BCNext that proves ur statement... Well, don't miss this train, it's ur very last chance!