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Author Topic: A free market approach to dark pools  (Read 1856 times)
hazek
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March 05, 2011, 02:13:49 AM
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A free market approach to dark pools

So I just read through the "Distribution of Wealth" thread and was a bit shocked by some of the posts in regard to the dark pools and free markets. I thought about making a post in that thread but I think this is an important topic that needs a thread of it's own so here it goes:


In a free market you have a right to your freedom and to your private property meaning that you can do with your private property what ever the hell you want. There is absolutely no one with a higher authority then you the owner. Meaning if Mt.Gox wants to have private pools at his trading website it's his right and no one can force him otherwise.

Now some of you, the smaller fishes might disagree. You might scream "FRAUD!" or "SCAM!" or "THEFT!" or what ever and you will demand action by the community while acting out all powerless and outraged. Let me ask you a question: Is anyone forcing you to do business at Mt. Gox's market?

See what you fail to realize is that in a free market you are not powerless, you are the most powerful players! You see you also have the right to freedom and a right to your private property meaning you can take your private property anywhere the hell you want! And if you don't like how Mt.Gox is running his business you can take your fees that you would otherwise pay him to someone else. Someone who will respect your wishes. Someone who will provide the desired service that will satisfy your conditions. And if Mt.Gox loses all the small fishes, he will also lose the fees and he wont have a market for the big fishes.

See? Freedom works both ways. Mt.Gox is free to run his business anyway he sees fit and you are free to take your business anywhere you see fit.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
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hazek
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March 05, 2011, 02:46:46 AM
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Can't believe the timing of when my ISP had a routine maintenance scheduled. I had to wait 15min before I could finally post the actually post   Roll Eyes

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
hazek
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March 05, 2011, 10:59:08 AM
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wow 8 hours and 30 views later and everyone hates the truth so much they wont even write a single reply to this thread?  Roll Eyes

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
Anonymous
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March 05, 2011, 11:29:58 AM
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I have nothing to add. Similar to the bitcoin forum banning illegal content whoever owns the property sets the rules.

A man's house is his castle .


srb123
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March 05, 2011, 11:35:46 AM
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Agree wholeheartedly.

Same applies for Mining Pools. e.g; Yes compute4cash takes a bigger margin, but they also offer a simpler experience to that of say deepbit.net (Especially for newcomers.)

It not up to us to make the decision which is better for everyone, its the markets.
barbarousrelic
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March 05, 2011, 02:43:35 PM
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Did anyone claim that Mt. Gox did not have the right to have dark pools, or that he could be forced to stop having dark pools? Huh

Do not waste your time debating whether Bitcoin can work. It does work.

"Early adopters will profit" is not a sufficient condition to classify something as a pyramid or Ponzi scheme. If it was, Apple and Microsoft stock are Ponzi schemes.

There is no such thing as "market manipulation." There is only buying and selling.
Hal
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March 05, 2011, 08:53:58 PM
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Suppose you sell some bitcoins on mtgox and when you go to withdraw the proceeds, he says, no I think I'll keep them. Is your only recourse to eat the loss and take your business elsewhere? Can he really run his business "any way he wants"?


Hal Finney
hazek
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March 05, 2011, 09:02:22 PM
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Suppose you sell some bitcoins on mtgox and when you go to withdraw the proceeds, he says, no I think I'll keep them. Is your only recourse to eat the loss and take your business elsewhere? Can he really run his business "any way he wants"?


Absolutely. Unless you signed a contract with him where you specifically mentioned that he couldn't do it and some court could enforce that contract I don't see what you could possibly do in order to get your money back.

But what you fail to realize is that he can only do that to you because as soon as he robes one person, there's going be a major thread on these forums and people screaming THEFT, SCAM, FRAUD and without a reasonable defense he'll lose all of his clients. Not only that he'll get a reputation for stealing and will not be able to get a credible business up and running ever again. And then if these kind of fraudulent businesses keep popping up the market will provide an insurance service where you'll pay a premium and the next "Mt. Gox" will have to become their member and ESCROW a big chunk of cash to that insurance company before people will be willing to trust him.


Freedom works both ways. Just as he can punish you for trusting him, you can punish him for breaking that trust.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
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March 05, 2011, 09:48:12 PM
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Suppose you sell some bitcoins on mtgox and when you go to withdraw the proceeds, he says, no I think I'll keep them. Is your only recourse to eat the loss and take your business elsewhere? Can he really run his business "any way he wants"?

Logical Fallacy.  Equivocation.
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March 05, 2011, 10:34:50 PM
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Suppose you sell some bitcoins on mtgox and when you go to withdraw the proceeds, he says, no I think I'll keep them. Is your only recourse to eat the loss and take your business elsewhere? Can he really run his business "any way he wants"?


But what you fail to realize is that he can only do that to you because as soon as he robes one person...

I trust him not to, but he'd get us all at once, not one at a time.

Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.
hazek
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March 05, 2011, 10:51:21 PM
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Suppose you sell some bitcoins on mtgox and when you go to withdraw the proceeds, he says, no I think I'll keep them. Is your only recourse to eat the loss and take your business elsewhere? Can he really run his business "any way he wants"?


But what you fail to realize is that he can only do that to you because as soon as he robes one person...

I trust him not to, but he'd get us all at once, not one at a time.

I really don't care if you trust him or not. If he does something bad he'll do it only once and then the market will come with ways to guarantee it's far less likely or even impossible to happen again.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
Anonymous
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March 06, 2011, 02:40:08 AM
 #12

Mt Gox = Windows
Bitcoin-otc = Linux


I dont know what service = Apple 
 Smiley
Cusipzzz
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March 09, 2011, 02:48:09 PM
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Coinpal = Apple

It "just works", but is very expensive. He needs to change to the brushed-aluminum theme. Smiley

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March 09, 2011, 03:42:06 PM
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Suppose you sell some bitcoins on mtgox and when you go to withdraw the proceeds, he says, no I think I'll keep them. Is your only recourse to eat the loss and take your business elsewhere? Can he really run his business "any way he wants"?

Yep, de facto, that's how most of the Bitcoin economy works at the moment. Law of the jungle. Luckly it's a rather benign, plentyful jungle where symbiosis pays better than predation or parasitism.

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hazek
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March 09, 2011, 03:57:55 PM
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Suppose you sell some bitcoins on mtgox and when you go to withdraw the proceeds, he says, no I think I'll keep them. Is your only recourse to eat the loss and take your business elsewhere? Can he really run his business "any way he wants"?

Yep, de facto, that's how most of the Bitcoin economy works at the moment. Law of the jungle. Luckly it's a rather benign, plentyful jungle where symbiosis pays better than predation or parasitism.

And it always will and those who wont learn this the easy will have to learn it the hard way.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
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March 09, 2011, 04:21:43 PM
 #16

Suppose you sell some bitcoins on mtgox and when you go to withdraw the proceeds, he says, no I think I'll keep them. Is your only recourse to eat the loss and take your business elsewhere? Can he really run his business "any way he wants"?


But what you fail to realize is that he can only do that to you because as soon as he robes one person...

I trust him not to, but he'd get us all at once, not one at a time.

I really don't care if you trust him or not. If he does something bad he'll do it only once and then the market will come with ways to guarantee it's far less likely or even impossible to happen again.

Sure, I was just pointing out that it would likely be more than one person. I totally get that we will find ways to solve problems that arise.

Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.
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March 09, 2011, 08:06:59 PM
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And if you don't like how Mt.Gox is running his business you can take your fees that you would otherwise pay him to someone else.
In principle, you are correct.  But this is only when there is genuine competition in the marketplace.  The current political situation tends to favour monopolies (through processes like lobbying, distortion of justice, abuses of power and so on), and free-market capitalists say that, unless (I suppose) everybody likes what the monopoly is doing, monopolies will not be sustainable in a free market.  I have my doubts.
hazek
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March 09, 2011, 09:56:24 PM
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And if you don't like how Mt.Gox is running his business you can take your fees that you would otherwise pay him to someone else.
In principle, you are correct.  But this is only when there is genuine competition in the marketplace.  The current political situation tends to favour monopolies (through processes like lobbying, distortion of justice, abuses of power and so on), and free-market capitalists say that, unless (I suppose) everybody likes what the monopoly is doing, monopolies will not be sustainable in a free market.  I have my doubts.

Yeah you are right. But the BitCoin economy is a truly free market.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
barbarousrelic
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March 09, 2011, 10:20:41 PM
 #19

See what you fail to realize is that in a free market you are not powerless, you are the most powerful players! You see you also have the right to freedom and a right to your private property meaning you can take your private property anywhere the hell you want! And if you don't like how Mt.Gox is running his business you can take your fees that you would otherwise pay him to someone else.
There are other options, as well. Users can complain about his practices. Users can convince others that his practices aren't good. Freedom of speech and all.

Do not waste your time debating whether Bitcoin can work. It does work.

"Early adopters will profit" is not a sufficient condition to classify something as a pyramid or Ponzi scheme. If it was, Apple and Microsoft stock are Ponzi schemes.

There is no such thing as "market manipulation." There is only buying and selling.
Anonymous
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March 09, 2011, 10:45:39 PM
 #20

Coinpal = Apple

It "just works", but is very expensive. He needs to change to the brushed-aluminum theme. Smiley


ibitcoin    Smiley
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