intersango bitcoin withdraw not possible? (no fiat involved)

[Dipsomaniac]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=260225.0

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[zhangweiwu]

Patrick has bitcoinica's money in MtGox - okay, but what about Intersango's customers money? It was stored in a 'hot wallet' on Intersango, and when it was not, it should be in a 'cold wallet' by Intersango, no reason to go to MtGox.

I feel it is perhaps time to take action, to ride the wave and get some attention. Someone spoke him as having a little responsibility, helped a user when she couldn't fully proof ownership, so if he had money that he doesn't consider his own he may gave to owner, thus getting the rest of the coins from him requires more than asking. Meanwhile a case against him would make it public, so people are aware and learn something from it.

How many of you intersango users are located in England (where the company is registered - correct me if I am wrong) and how many live close to San Francisco (where he lives - correct me if I am wrong)? We need to file case in two places, see who has the jurisdiction.

Early this month I was tempted to file the case in Poland where Intersango bank account is, by asking my friend who was visiting - we failed to get authorization (signed) from other users to file case for them (I wasn't able to myself because my withdraw only had stuck 2-weeks, too short to be taken seriously). I believe simply trying to be noisy without any authorization letter wouldn''t help, so I gave up asking him to file a case in Poland.

[ptrs2010]

I am Dutch and lived in the UK for some years. After that used to visit the UK regularly up until recently, but no plans now for the foreseeable future. I do however have contacts in London that may be able to file a case and I should be able to travel to London at a relatively low cost if needed.

Annoying thing now is that I had to cancel my withdrawal request because in any case I do not want any BTC to go to mtgox anymore. I can prove, however, that I requested a withdrawal and asked for support twice over the course of two months, and of course my emailing Patrick. I have now again put in a request for the full amount of BTC owed to me by intersango, but to an offline/cold storage wallet. Something I should have created a long time ago.

If we really want to file a case we will have to look into what we stand to gain and where we stand legally under UK law, where the company originates. One of the worries I had, and possibly share with other people, is that BTC is not legal tender and hence we might not get coins, but only original fiat investments. On the other hand, if we buy shares through a bank or company, then those aren't legal tender either. It seems only logical that if we had bought some shares in e.g. Tesla motors a few years back and they were owed to me by a company who can not provide those original shares, that I would get recompensed for the current value of those shares, even though those shares have doubled in value many times over since then. I will confirm with my lawyer friend how this works under Dutch law and I am quite sure in the UK it should be the same, or at least similar.

[zhangweiwu]

If we really want to file a case we will have to look into what we stand to gain and where we stand legally under UK law, where the company originates. One of the worries I had, and possibly share with other people, is that BTC is not legal tender and hence we might not get coins, but only original fiat investments. On the other hand, if we buy shares through a bank or company, then those aren't legal tender either. It seems only logical that if we had bought some shares in e.g. Tesla motors a few years back and they were owed to me by a company who can not provide those original shares, that I would get recompensed for the current value of those shares, even though those shares have doubled in value many times over since then. I will confirm with my lawyer friend how this works under Dutch law and I am quite sure in the UK it should be the same, or at least similar.

Thank you. This is important to check the possible outcome.

When the action is needed, there are several actions we can take:

1) We can repeate what icicle did in the U.S., filing a case in police - I do not know U.K. police would act to this, but in China the outcome is: they take the case, write a file, close it in a cabinet and it's there forever - bribing may or may not kick start the progress.
2) We can sue the company,
3) We can ask related entities to act, e.g. check if it requires a court order to freeze intersango account or request force liquidation - perhaps proof of delayed payment of debt is sufficient to start it without court order? I have never been living outside of China. I am oblivious.

Apparent to me that 1) and 3) are less expensive. 2) perhaps can be inexpensive too, because there is a chance he doesn't want to present in the court (if he has nothing to lose), making it less work for everybody. Again, this is a guess from someone whose knowledge of the western world is from hollywood movies.

P.S. We should pay your labour with a percentage if you are to go through all the trouble for others - it's nature. We can fix that when we are set on action
P.S. Losing the 30 coins in Intersango and the 100 coins in MtGox to a Chinese is like, losing between 650 to 1000 coins for people in the first world.

[ptrs2010]

Just a quick update. I spoke with my lawyer friend but her expertise in this area is not specific enough to really help us in this matter. She, as well as the police, have told me this would normally classify as a civil case, relating to the agreement signed between me and Intersango and hence they advised to arrange a consult with a civil lawyer, which is what I think Icicle has already done. Also I don't think a Dutch lawyer can really help here, since the company is based in the UK and Patrick is in the US, so I think for now it may be best to follow Icicle's approach and contribute to her case the best we can.

In response to your comment on being from the first world: 12.4 BTC is a lot of money to me. I am a student and I could currently pay off a good part of my student loans with this (esp together with the BTC that went missing at mtgox), which will save me a lot of worries during for years to come.

[zhangweiwu]

they advised to arrange a consult with a civil lawyer, which is what I think Icicle has already done.

AFAIK, she did not go the civil dispute route, and she did not hire a civil lawyer. Because I remember she said once "don't question me why I don't sue him" or something similiar: can't find the source now. She is following this thread occasional, may come and clearify. I thought that she is firmly on the police/FBI route.

I will help by repeating the story as another creditor, to any police officer who took icicle's case, once she announces the police officer's email address or contact method (icicle: if you are reading this: you can contact us with PM on this forum to avoid exposing the police officer's email address), be it a U.S. police or U.K. police.

I am not giving up the idea of hiring a civil lawyer. Did you check that we must have a civil lawyer to plead to force liquidating the company? And do you know the price range of such a lawyer? You would be helping a lot other people by some digging, and it is still possible to arrange co-share of the cost. That being said, I will continue to support icicle on police route as well as spend effort going through a civil dispute.

[PaperLess]

Intersango Ltd. UK registered company with the name Intersango LTD (company number: 07683978) under the Companies Act 2006.
A Ltd is a Limited Liability company. Which means that the company is only liable up to their share value which can be as £100

Company address:
Intersango Ltd
3rd Floor 14 Hanover Street
London
England
W1S 1YH

Filed on 16-01-2014   First notification of strike-off action in London Gazette (Section 652)   £4.99   
Filed on 31-07-2013   Notice of striking-off action discontinued   £4.99
Filed on 21-06-2013   First notification of strike-off action in London Gazette (Section 652)   £4.99   
Filed on 23-09-2012   Annual Return   £4.99   
Filed on 30-06-2012   Annual Accounts

A "strike off action" means that they have not filled in their annual accounts.

A company report is available (£9.99) which will have these details from companies house here in the UK it says it has details of:
Turnover, Company Registration Number, Pre Tax Profit, Year Started, Issued Capital, Incorporation Date, Nominal Capital, Annual Return Date, Net Worth, Number of Employees, Net Assets, Director Information, Current Director Position, Past Director Position, Current Director Name, Past Director Name, Date of Appointment and Date of Registration.

Someone has been trying to get more information about the address that Intersago is registered at.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/14_hanover_street_3rd_floor
But have not had any luck.

Goggle show up lots of companies are registered at 14 Hanover Street. So it looks like a company selling "off the shelf company registrations" is who is really there. The Company report from business intelligence company I use might give you more leads to follow

Here is a custom search that might turn up something.
http://www.cylex-uk.co.uk/google/companysearch?cx=016729864569533560013:5agkikkhevy&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=utf-8&hl=en&q=INTERSANGO%20LTD

I have an account at Intersango and so this thread caught my eye. I used them when they first opened as they where the only place you could get Bitcon back then. I logged in OK and found I had left 3 BTC in my account (small change at that time worth £12) so I have made a request for my 3 BTC.

Think of England as a pirate ship off the coast of Europe as far as finance is concerned so unless fraud can be proved rather than just sloppy business I would expect the police to get involved. In which case it would be a civil matter and it would be difficult to recover any money. If the company is forced into liquidation a Receiver would be appointed. They would sell any assets and the tax man would get first bit of the cherry. But I'm not a Lawyer. I can buy the report for you if you like.

Hope this is of some help.

12GyM6kF9ZTmbsRBdDNixpfpvLu8zBQWse

[zhangweiwu]

Thank you for your help PaperLess. It's rather professional. You are a person of details and very helpful to others.

The customized google search turns out empty page for me, is it inteded? That there is nothing?

I don't mind buying the report (less than 100 Chinese Yuan) but the problem is what action to take after having it. Even a visit to their office address is perhaps not necessary and should be skipped - you expect to see nothing and nobody there. The company is expected to have one person only, and he is expected to be in the U.S.

I don't even know which way to start to get these thing done - force liquidate the business. The procedure, cost and time etc etc.

Perhaps it make sense to start a small website 'intersango debt collect' to record the loses for the folks and as a basis of some action against Intersango? e.g. for people to file claims and make legal procedure to start.

[ozzymax]

Anyone who has lost money to these scum should Contact the City Of London Police and not the London Metropolitan Police.
The City of London Police deal with all financial and internet fraud and scams and they are very good at it they have jailed many market traders and fraudulent company directors both in the UK and abroad.

http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/advice-and-support/fraud-and-economic-crime/Pages/Reporting-fraud.aspx

[beatmanix]

Thanks to you all for providing the above information. Much appreciated.

I notice today intersango.com is down (was fine yesterday) - the final nail in the coffin?

[zhangweiwu]

Anyone who has lost money to these scum should Contact the City Of London Police and not the London Metropolitan Police.
The City of London Police deal with all financial and internet fraud and scams and they are very good at it they have jailed many market traders and fraudulent company directors both in the UK and abroad.

http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/advice-and-support/fraud-and-economic-crime/Pages/Reporting-fraud.aspx

The shorter URL I was redirected to is:
http://www.actionfraud.police.uk/report_fraud

1. Remember don't select "Benifit, Tax or Passport". The Intersango is not a tax fraud, benifit fraud or passport fraud, and Action Fraud site doesn't deal the 3 cases.

2. When selecting Fraud Type, none of the default option seem fit. You can click the last option "give me more options" and this one in the expanded option list seem fit to me:
- Fraud to do with a financial investment, e.g. purchasing stocks or shares, a mortgage or an investment scheme

3. When an address of the fraud is needed, the postal code of 3rd floor, 14 Hangover Street, London, as I looked up, is "W1S 1YH "

I reported lose of bitcoins, but lose of fiat may call more attention? Here is what I reported, in case you want to adjust for your case and report yours:

Intersango offer an online service for selling and buying a digital asset Bitcoin.

I own 31 (rounded down) units of this digital asset which I acquired elsewhere with cash.

I transferred these digital assets to Bitcoin, unable to sell it at a reasonable price, by 19th Jan, I decide to request withdraw of my digital asset by filling an online form on the fraudulent website. The asset never returned to me. This is not a dispute between buyer and seller of the digital asset, because it was not sold. This fraud is directly between Intersango and their customer.

The withdraw form was submitted but never responded. 3 days later, by 22th Jan, the website states on the frontpage:

NOTICE: BITCOIN TRANSACTIONS HALTED
The system running the hotwallet has halted due to scheduled downtime of power facilities.
All bitcoin transactions will be halted until such time as the system can be manually restarted.

The "system", however, was never "restarted". Yesterday 4th Mar, the whole website went offline.

Multiple attempts are made to contact the company, including:
1) use the "Support" feature to ask questions on the website - unanswered for more than 1 month.
2) email the CEO of the company, whose email address I filled in the suspect form -  unanswered for more than 1 month.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=414764.0;all

The suspect's bank accout, which receives case deposite, is the following:

Account title
    Intersango LTD
Bank
    Bank Zachodni WBK
Branch address
    ul. Marszałkowska 55/73
    00-676, Warsawa
IBAN
    PL04109018830000000116417763
SWIFT(BIC)
    WBKPPLPP

Surprising to me, the reporting didn't ask for my passport or proof that I exist. Still, I am ready to submit these information. I also forgot to add any informatin of Patrick himself, you can add that part if you want. The combination of U.S.A. owner, British company and Poland bank account must be suspecious enough to call attentio to the officers, but I forgot to address this point and submitted.

Using "digital asset" instead of "digital currency" is intentional, because police vowed to protect people's asset, and digital currency (including in-game asset) are recognized as asset (in many countries, not sure U.K.). We are not asking them to admit Bitcoin as a currency in order to start their work. My naïve understanding is that the police face the dilemma whether or not recognize bitcoin as a currency only when we are buying things with it, so the Intersango case doesn't challange their idea of currency and I wish to address it is their duty after all. This one only my opinion, not a suggestion to everyone.

[ptrs2010]

Thank you zhangweiwu. I have filed a report as well. I am sorry not having much time to investigate very deeply in these matters currently, due to impending deadlines. I have found out that first consults with civil lawyers tend to be free here in the Netherlands, but I am simply too busy to sacrifice half a day at the moment. But let's see how this develops for now and second half of the month should be better.

btw, since you also had coins in mtgox, I trust you have wrote an email here?

http://www.selachii.co.uk/solicitors-blog/bitcoin-mt-gox-class-action-update/

Deadline is 4pm GMT Friday...

[zhangweiwu]

Today I received an email titled "Fraud Confirmed". The content is an auto-generated message, that if investigation has any progress they would let me know, plus that if they don't inform me, then there is no progress (infer that "don't slow us down by checking").

btw, since you also had coins in mtgox, I trust you have wrote an email here?

http://www.selachii.co.uk/solicitors-blog/bitcoin-mt-gox-class-action-update/

Thanks a lot! I knew Selachii LLP is representing lots of people to sue MtGox, but I was vainly waiting for them to publish an online form. Thanks to you I just learned they are asking people to register by sending them email! A very inefficient way to handle multitudes of clients. I just emailed them now.

[elvizzzzzzz]

I had a look at the printout from Companies House.

There were initially three shareholders, now only two: Patrick and Amir.
Each has one share, value one pound.

Amir is the sole director of the company.

The registered address is a shell, AFAICT.

Intersango is a Limited Company, and "[T]he directors shall be empowered (whether expressly or implicitly) to exercise in pursuance of its objects and powers all of the borrowing powers of the Company," ......

It appears that the directors, officers and auditors have the right of indemnity.

Hence suing the company is likely to enrich only the lawyers, IMHO.

Abbreviated balance sheet as at 30 June 2012 (latest BS)
Current assets £254680
Creditors £(£252,133)

Total net assets £2547

The latest document is dated 21/01/2014 and is a notice from Companies House advising that
unless cause is shown to the contrary, the company will be struck off on21/4/2014
NB: Upon dissolution all property and rights vested in, or held in trust for, the company are
deemed to be bona vacantia, and accordinly will belong to the crown.

Please do not shoot the messenger.




 

[zhangweiwu]

Current assets £254680
Creditors £(£252,133)
Total net assets £2547

I expect they moved money away in the two year's span. If it were two years ago, by the time of this asset table, suing them for liability isn't a dead-end, because when you "deposite" money into Intersango, you are the creditor, and the company should pay your credit with current asset, not with net asset.

If the information can be obtained easily, I wonder if the same should be done to all bitcoin businesses in operation, for the benifit of the community. Studies of Mark K.'s personality and background only surfaced in the aftermath, such background study should be done before.

Since you have the printout, can you post so that I can attach it to my fraud report? I perfer if you could file a fraud report yourself too (Action Fraud) if you are a customer, and attach the information. Having there business closed and the deed done, Patrick and Amir have no incentive to accuse you for exposing the record.

To my common sense, any evidence of Fraud could get everything siezed and his personal assets could be at stake. that means not limiting to the 2 pound the company registered with.

"In my experience Bankruptcy work fine in the US without a lawyer. Japanis a first world nation, so I would expect their system to work in a similar way."

I hope I can spare more time on how U.K. system works. Perhaps it is easy, as quoted, but there is a huge culture gap to cross. As much as I want to be an law-abiding citizen, I do not live in the first world.

[aj2014]

I have bitcoins at Intersango that I can't reach anymore too and a withdraw request that was never carried out and an unanswered support ticket.
I wanted to report the fraud the URL :
http://www.actionfraud.police.uk/report_fraud

according to zhangweiwu the following option is the best choice:
- Fraud to do with a financial investment, e.g. purchasing stocks or shares, a mortgage or an investment scheme

But if I do that I have to fill in fields about the money I spend (in pounds, estimated is all right too they say) and how much I got back.

Some questions about that:

Did anyone encounter those fields too?
If I can't avoid them: If I fill in what I really spend it will be a lot less then what the coins are worth now. And they ask for a date. So you only can fill in the lower fiat value of the past.
Did anyone had to handle this or am I in the wrong path in the report.

[zhangweiwu]

according to zhangweiwu the following option is the best choice:
- Fraud to do with a financial investment, e.g. purchasing stocks or shares, a mortgage or an investment scheme

That's my opinion, because I did it for a financial investment and bitcoin in the current decade is an investment scheme. (WE are investing on the possibility it becomes a currency by 2020, at the current moment we are doing it for digital asset, that's my reading.)

Did anyone encounter those fields too?
If I can't avoid them: If I fill in what I really spend it will be a lot less then what the coins are worth now. And they ask for a date. So you only can fill in the lower fiat value of the past.
Did anyone had to handle this or am I in the wrong path in the report.

When I deposited the coins into my empty account, I deposite with bitcoins that I bought elsewhere at a recent price, intending to sell them. So I converted that cost to sterlings and filled in the number. But, perhaps even your a few pounds look bigger to the police than mine tens of thouands, because I file for lose of asset and you file for lose of cash investment. Or you can fill in the current value of your asset and explain in a comment? You can refer to my case if you like, I just sent my case number to you in private message.

[elvizzzzzzz]

Just to be clear, I will list the possibilities that I see:

1. Intersango does nothing, gets delisted, and all their assets become the property of the crown.

2. The creditors, including me, start bankruptcy proceedings.

3. Intersango somehow comes back online.

I do not see a criminal fraud investigation assisting in any way, for reasons stated below.

I see 2. as the most likely. Amir seems to be the only one whose assets might be directly at risk,
and even he is protected by the limitations on liability of the company. Put bluntly, unless there
are company assets to be seized, there is no point in starting bankruptcy proceedings.

There may or may not be assets in the form of money and BTC. I seemed to be one of a few
active traders, and had almost no euro and bitcoin in the lowish single figures in my account.
I seem to recall that at most 20 bitcoin were shown as available for purchase, so forgive me
if I seem skeptical regarding some of the claims made here.

Aside from those, the only visible assets are the site's software, probably totally dependent on
Amir to maintain, and the Intersango name and business model. The business model got broken
when the UK bank account got pulled, so a sale of the business is unlikely to net very much.

Looking at the last deposit I made with Intersango, if I was paid for my btc at that rate, I am
perhaps owed 25 euro. The current value of my bitcoins is perhaps x100 in round figures so
my recovery would depend on convincing the receiver/administrator that I have a case for the
higher figure. With no legal history, that may be difficult.

As for the possibility of success with a fraud investigation, I have yet to see a good case being made.
Begin with this definition: 'Obtaining money by deception'

Accepting, for the moment that bitcoin is money, where is the deception?

[zhangweiwu]

As for the possibility of success with a fraud investigation, I have yet to see a good case being made.
Begin with this definition: 'Obtaining money by deception'

Accepting, for the moment that bitcoin is money, where is the deception?

Deception doesn't have to involve fiat money. e.g. deception with passport is deception, with or without money. I don't see why assets can't merit deception. I personally did not say bitcoin is money. It is an asset on which we speculate that may become money. Since paltry as the weapons and amors you got in World of Warcraft is considered asset and lawfully protected on the merit that players laboured to obtain it, I don't see why a commodity (bitcoin) widely accepted in the world not counting as asset. If someone says they are to buy gold from me, I give the gold and he disappared, can the police say I am not deceived because no fiat money was paid so far? If ths man instead pays me one Pound for a block of gold before he disappears, will the police say "now your case merit a deception because One Pound of fiat is involved"?

It is not the case that he said I cannot pay your money, it is that the company and website disappared with the money. I am really surprised that you think this is not deception. You asked me not to shoot the messenger, but what you said is simply against my common sense. All these: accepting deposite when withdraw is not possible, fake message of system powered down, and not disclosing the fact of insolvence when they know it. Hell, someone disappeared with a promise-to-pay, and you ask where is the deception. Please other members post to confirm whether or not I am just experiencing a huge culture shock.

There are only two persons who made public big claims, me and icicle. You ask that why do someone "deposite" 30+ coins into an exchange that at any time can only offer to trade 20 bitcoins, the answer is I did not know it was so until today you told me. Admittedly I am far less resourceful and informed as you are, but isn't that the characteristic of victims? I cannot speak for her but to prove my own claim, my biggest deposites are the two following:

Code:

01968c12e9fd244df3cddfa0f14a52a99e22bf7adac1fbd0d7658fe8d2fcfacf
f21d8f950bc651ee8e0e609e968712a52f15333d7c5929023bc830eac6bdc7f0

The coins, as I track on blockchian, with following transactions, went to multiple addresses after deposited, and most of these addressess show 0BTC as final. If I track further, I am perhaps tracking other customer's wallet, so I stopped in 5 rounds.

So I answered your 'confusion' but may I know why do you think Patrick's asset is not going to be hurt? Is it because Amir is a public figure and Patrick isn't? Saying only Amir's asset at risk is also against my common sense.

[elvizzzzzzz]

"So I answered your 'confusion' but may I know why do you think Patrick's asset is not going to be hurt?"

I am thinking about the bankruptcy route for recovery of assets. On other threads the intention to pursue
all three founders of the company is discussed, and they may be successful. I have not seen any references
to case numbers, and until I see these, it is difficult to find out how far that has progressed.

So, back to the civil action route - IANAL BTW.

If these guys had any business sense, they should have gone public as soon as they knew the company was
insolvent, perhaps in June 2013 when the accounts were due. (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt here)

At that time they might have avoided bankruptcy by offering the depositors say 40 cents on the dollar. Do not
take that literally! Now there may be nothing for us after due bills are paid, and the lawyers and accountants
get paid. The reason I say this is that they seem to be willing to let Intersango get delisted and have the assets
seized by the crown. The intersango business seems to be hosted in southern England, their bank account is in
Poland, and the people are in Spain, the USA, and Europe. I doubt there is anything worth seizing in the UK.

Intersango is a limited liability company. That means that not only are the personal assets of the directors
protected under law, but that they can use the assets of Intersango to pay for any legal action. Patrick may have
been Chairman, but he seems to have no right in law to direct the actions of the company (as would be the case
for a Director ie Amir).

The company has to file for bankruptcy as far as I can tell, and I have no knowledge of whether the company owes
a bank any money, or has any other financial obligations, so it is difficult to know how this would play out. I'm hoping
that the Intersango three still keeps an eye on these boards, because getting them to respond probably offers the
best hope of any recovery.