Bitcloud, Distributed Application for sharing content, PROOF OF BANDWIDTH

[panonym]

So it's the idea on paper, but no dev nor code?

Gonna read

[dance4x]

Basic questions:

1. Where is the data stored? How much redundancy? Obviously you need data to serve content.
2. How do you ensure that users are actually serving the correct data?
3. How will you validate the amount of data being served? (Imagine that an attacker controls both sending and receiving nodes. It would be trivial to fake the amount of bandwidth "used").
4. What types of data will you disallow? (This has many important legal consequences, as I'm sure you can imagine.) If everything is "allowed", I'd imagine most users unwilling to participate in fear of lawsuits/retaliation/subpoenas.
5. What is a "coin"? (unit of storage/bandwidth?) What is "difficulty"?

I've been working with Liberman on a lot of the basic concepts, but I don't understand how some things will work technically.

1. Data is stored in nodes (the "miners"). The system is being setup so more nodes host the most popular content. The amount of redundancy depends on the popularity of the content.
2. Users will interact with Bitcloud in a client where they basically search through the files that are approved by a moderator. The moderator will have a list of files that its nodes store locally. I assume some form of verification mechanism can be used to make sure the node's files match the moderator's list.
3. Nodes cannot cheat the system because there are multiple nodes sharing the same file. The node that the user connects to is chosen at random.
4. Everything is allowed on the unmoderated system that will work on an anonymized layer, similar to Tor. On top of that, moderators will be able to set guidelines for content uploaded to their nodes. A node can choose to follow a few different moderators or simply allow unmoderated content to be stored on their server.
5. The coins represent bandwidth. A block reward is given out every 10 minutes. The block reward is distributed to all nodes. The node's share of the block reward depends on their share of the total bandwidth used by Bitcloud users.

Edit: Decided to go ahead and answer number 3.

[jimhsu]

Basic questions:

1. Where is the data stored? How much redundancy? Obviously you need data to serve content.
2. How do you ensure that users are actually serving the correct data?
3. How will you validate the amount of data being served? (Imagine that an attacker controls both sending and receiving nodes. It would be trivial to fake the amount of bandwidth "used").
4. What types of data will you disallow? (This has many important legal consequences, as I'm sure you can imagine.) If everything is "allowed", I'd imagine most users unwilling to participate in fear of lawsuits/retaliation/subpoenas.
5. What is a "coin"? (unit of storage/bandwidth?) What is "difficulty"?

3. Nodes cannot cheat the system because there are multiple nodes sharing the same file. The node that the user connects to is chosen at random.

Edit: Decided to go ahead and answer number 3.

I assume this is a torrent-like scheme where files are broken into independent, verifiable (by hash) pieces, is that correct?

Storing data in nodes seems to assume unbounded storage space. How will you make sure that nodes actually have the requisite storage space? Particularly important for high bandwidth, storage constrained systems (I'm talking about VPSes, of course, which will probably be the source of the majority of the bandwidth).

It seems like this could be used for nefarious purposes (I'm talking about DDoS); will there be measures to control how many coins a potential attacker can get and/or use at the same time?

It also seems like at least in the beginning, the system will not come close to even saturating bandwidth. In that case, what determines who gets block rewards? Random chance? Latency?

[dance4x]

Interessting, If I understood correctly, this works Torrent, only difference is that this uses the experience acquired from cryptocurrency to provide privacy, to maintain the system working, and to award the users.

I see that the fondamentals are great and it's a rational idea, but I have several questions, from a technical standpoint, but I guess it's still to early now, as from what I read you guys still looking for devs and brainstorming

I look at it as a way of monetizing torrent streaming; at least for the WeTube DAC that will be built on top of BitCloud. We definitely want as many questions as possible to come our way because it will help us with the brainstorming process. There are too many different aspects of the protocol for us to handle on our own right now, which is why we're seeking devs.

So it's the idea on paper, but no dev nor code?

Gonna read

Correct. We are searching for devs to help us turn this idea into a reality.

Basic questions:

1. Where is the data stored? How much redundancy? Obviously you need data to serve content.
2. How do you ensure that users are actually serving the correct data?
3. How will you validate the amount of data being served? (Imagine that an attacker controls both sending and receiving nodes. It would be trivial to fake the amount of bandwidth "used").
4. What types of data will you disallow? (This has many important legal consequences, as I'm sure you can imagine.) If everything is "allowed", I'd imagine most users unwilling to participate in fear of lawsuits/retaliation/subpoenas.
5. What is a "coin"? (unit of storage/bandwidth?) What is "difficulty"?

3. Nodes cannot cheat the system because there are multiple nodes sharing the same file. The node that the user connects to is chosen at random.

Edit: Decided to go ahead and answer number 3.

I assume this is a torrent-like scheme where files are broken into independent, verifiable (by hash) pieces, is that correct?

Storing data in nodes seems to assume unbounded storage space. How will you make sure that nodes actually have the requisite storage space? Particularly important for high bandwidth, storage constrained systems (I'm talking about VPSes, of course, which will probably be the source of the majority of the bandwidth).

It also seems like at least in the beginning, the system will not come close to even saturating bandwidth. In that case, what determines who gets block rewards? Random chance? Latency?

As of right now, the system is not breaking files into pieces. The nodes store the entire file. Multiple nodes have to be able to store the full file to make sure that nodes can't cheat the system. I haven't discussed breaking up files into parts with Liberman, but that seems like something that would make sense for larger moderators with a lot of nodes.

You are correct in assuming that VPSs will be the majority of the nodes. If the files on the nodes server don't match the file list from the moderator, they get dropped from the system. Having said that, I think your question points out the need for breaking down files into pieces. This system could work as long as the nodes were still chosen at random. We still have to make sure nodes can't cheat the system.

You'll have to wait for an answer from Liberman for your last point.

Couldn't someone just share with themselves?

See point #3 from my previous post.

[mmx888]

The same project already in china runing...
You can visit the website https://jiaoyi.yunfan.com/
We call the software name is LIULIANGKUANG
Software serives QVOD。

[dance4x]

The same project already in china runing...
You can visit the website https://jiaoyi.yunfan.com/
We call the software name is LIULIANGKUANG
Software serives QVOD。

Is there a place to read about this software in English?

[liberman]

I assume this is a torrent-like scheme where files are broken into independent, verifiable (by hash) pieces, is that correct?

Storing data in nodes seems to assume unbounded storage space. How will you make sure that nodes actually have the requisite storage space? Particularly important for high bandwidth, storage constrained systems (I'm talking about VPSes, of course, which will probably be the source of the majority of the bandwidth).

It seems like this could be used for nefarious purposes (I'm talking about DDoS); will there be measures to control how many coins a potential attacker can get and/or use at the same time?

It also seems like at least in the beginning, the system will not come close to even saturating bandwidth. In that case, what determines who gets block rewards? Random chance? Latency?

No, it is not going to be anything similar to Bittorrent. We don't split files into chunks. In fact, we use tha simple to use and difficult to censor HTTP protocol as a base.

We ensure storage space by the Storage Law (yet to write, but in our minds). Basically means that if a node doesn't have enough space to store the content of the moderators he selected, it is penalized or even banned.

Aboutt the DDOS attacks, we are thinking in the Abuse Law, which will ensure that nobody tries to abuse bandwidth, or make short circuit connections, etc.

We don't use the same system as Bitcoin. Our blockchain is different. All nodes recieve money in proportion to what they have shared and nothing more. There are no chances, it is a simple division.

Please read what we have of the protocol, blank chapters are to be thought:

https://github.com/wetube/bitcloud/blob/master/bitcloud.org

[extro24]

How is this different to Datacoin?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=325735.0

Datacoin is proof of work where the data is stored in the blockchain. Bitcloud is proof of bandwidth, a completely new concept. We don't store all of the data in the blockchain, so we can scale to handle videos, audio, and bigger types of data.

Datacoin dev is working on personal (node) chains, so that the main chain will only store indices and meta data.  Files, pictures, movie clips etc will be on the node chains.  This is to avoid bloating the main Datacoin blockchain.

Datacoin dev has just finished Datacoin blockchain HTTP server:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=405992.0;all

[dance4x]

How is this different to Datacoin?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=325735.0

Datacoin is proof of work where the data is stored in the blockchain. Bitcloud is proof of bandwidth, a completely new concept. We don't store all of the data in the blockchain, so we can scale to handle videos, audio, and bigger types of data.

Datacoin dev is working on personal (node) chains, so that the main chain will only store indices and meta data.  Files, pictures, movie clips etc will be on the node chains.  This is to avoid bloating the main Datacoin blockchain.

Datacoin dev has just finished Datacoin blockchain HTTP server:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=405992.0;all

Interesting. Last time I checked on that project personal chains were theoretical. Glad to hear they made progress. Having said that, I think they would still have problems. Can users stream videos from the blockchain? If so, how is the bandwidth paid for? Another difference is that Bitcloud can potentially be used to bootstrap a brand new mesh network with profit incentive in the future. "Mining" bandwidth instead of storing meta data in the blockchain seems like a better option.

[liberman]

How is this different to Datacoin?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=325735.0

Datacoin is proof of work where the data is stored in the blockchain. Bitcloud is proof of bandwidth, a completely new concept. We don't store all of the data in the blockchain, so we can scale to handle videos, audio, and bigger types of data.

Datacoin dev is working on personal (node) chains, so that the main chain will only store indices and meta data.  Files, pictures, movie clips etc will be on the node chains.  This is to avoid bloating the main Datacoin blockchain.

Datacoin dev has just finished Datacoin blockchain HTTP server:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=405992.0;all

Interesting. Last time I checked on that project personal chains were theoretical. Glad to hear they made progress. Having said that, I think they would still have problems. Can users stream videos from the blockchain? If so, how is the bandwidth paid for? Another difference is that Bitcloud can potentially be used to bootstrap a brand new mesh network with profit incentive in the future. "Mining" bandwidth instead of storing meta data in the blockchain seems like a better option.

Plus, in our project money is generated for bandwidth sharing and downloading/uploading content is always free. And not to speak about moderators, which is probably a very big step forward for providing quality content and avoid legal issues.

[extro24]

Interesting. Last time I checked on that project personal chains were theoretical. Glad to hear they made progress. Having said that, I think they would still have problems. Can users stream videos from the blockchain? If so, how is the bandwidth paid for? Another difference is that Bitcloud can potentially be used to bootstrap a brand new mesh network with profit incentive in the future. "Mining" bandwidth instead of storing meta data in the blockchain seems like a better option.

Yes, you are right - dev has said that personal blockchains are at concept stage and will take months to work on.  What excites us however is that he constantly delivers the code that he talks about - so I am really looking forward to the personal blockchains.

I am not sure about videos but pictures have been uploaded into Datacoin blockchain.

https://krypte.net/dtc/txid/a2784925fe6a147c85ed8a4694d4f3e8f616141d7c7dc548b70e3d8f25a651fb

(You must register on the site to access the picture)

The idea of a meshnet has been discussed in threads but not by dev - idea in threads is that Datacoin + Namecoin could be used to make a meshnet, with nodes connected directly by Wifi.  But there is no code - just an idea.

[lololol33]

This looks amazing. I would love to be part of this. I am a graphic designer and I can do some  graphic for You

[liberman]

This looks amazing. I would love to be part of this. I am a graphic designer and I can do some  graphic for You

Great! You are the first graphic designer to contact us. Please join us at #bitcloud and #wetube at freenode IRC.

[liberman]

Yes, you are right - dev has said that personal blockchains are at concept stage and will take months to work on.  What excites us however is that he constantly delivers the code that he talks about - so I am really looking forward to the personal blockchains.

The moderation concept is more advanced because it allows to separate the actual storage from moderation. In our system, each node can be attached to a number of moderators, and anyone can become a moderator.
Most importantly, our content will be avaiable in any place. For example, someone can embed a video of us

About the delivery of the code, we are just in the first stage of writing the protocol. We have made this public because we really want people to contribute with ideas. We are against centralization even for development and brainstorming.

[panonym]

Well, at least your team is trying to do something new...
But I have the feeling it will stay vaporware...
At least in this "form". (looks more like a bunch of imprecise ideas put together)
Best of luck to you guys.

But just by reading this tread there is some major flaw.
(Almost) seem like you do not understand how BItcoin itself works.

The purpose of "proof of x" is not to generate money... It is to provide security.
You lunch the idea proof of bandwidth.
The idea behind it is simple: I upload stuff = I make money.
But reality is not simple as that.

Bandwidth in itself is useless.
What matter is the size - and arguably the speed - of your uploading.

I don't see how you start your project...
You talk about "mediacoin". At the start there is no mediacoin...
How do you create them? premine = people not interested

You cannot create coin using bandwidth...
For uploading (obviously) you need data.
1kB text or 2GB movie? whom? (+interest matter)
Then you need this data to be (ideally) on all node without exception.
Or create a more complex system where each node provide the data it wishes, and get pay by the guy who wish to have his data on you node and many node.

Honestly, at this stage, I'm not even interested to join your thinker team.
Come back in 3 month with something much more solid.
Then I'm glad to help.

Think that each mediacoin must have the same value than another.
Let say I upload a 2GB movie on a seedbox, then from a FTH client with another IP I download my own file over and over again, just to win more mediacoin.
Nothing block that.
What make your mediacoin have any value? nobody will trade your BTC for that.
Too easy to create your own loop and create mediacoin with your idea.

Beside if I wish to upload 10GB of valuable data to me in your network, why would anyone host it if there is no public demand for it?
People make no money seeding a file nobody DL, in your system.

in our project money is generated for bandwidth sharing and downloading/uploading content is always free.

It's absurd...
And your moderation/censorship add more problem that it improve any quality.

Really, come back in 3 month. Or a year... No offence.

_________________
edit 6 days later: it keep coming in my mind that my comment was maybe a bit harsh.
I repeat: my point was not to offend. Friend here.
Best luck to your project. Need more idea in these fields.
That say: may I suggest your consider Proof of Upload? 'seem much more logical to me

[Jobin]

China really need it

[kelvinliong]

The same project already in china runing...
You can visit the website https://jiaoyi.yunfan.com/
We call the software name is LIULIANGKUANG
Software serives QVOD。

Yeah, this should be the same idea with @liberman
People can get money from mining with bandwidth.

[x0rcist]

so you guys are leaving bitshares behind and design your own protocol?

[triggermage]

I like it, I manage a few servers, could make nodes and/or host stuff.

[atleticofa]

This is an AMAZING idea. But it need yet a lot of development. I will follow it very close. Good luck!