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Author Topic: Libertarian Capitalism vs Social Democracy - A metaphor  (Read 8622 times)
stevendobbs
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September 06, 2011, 03:04:52 PM
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Libertarian Capitalists believes that if you do not govern, if you leave to chaos - then the emergent outcome will be better than meddling; out will come greatest productivity from less government intervention.

And in a sense they are right. Competition leads to the aggressive seeking out of all niches. In a narrow sense, there is greater economic activity. And this is what it looks like:



Social Democrats advocate a mixed economy where the state is prepared to invest time and effort into planning for the future. And this is what happens when you plan and maintain:



Remember, there may be more Biomass raised by leaving entirely to nature (Biomass analogous to wealth measured by GDP) than the forced unnatural occurrence of a field of potatoes. But the latter will feed more people.


http://a-new-red-dawn.blogspot.com/2010/11/this-is-what-libertarian-capitalism.html

Steven Dobbs, co founder of thunderworks ltd
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Hawker
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September 06, 2011, 03:09:41 PM
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Not quite true.  Libertarians don't care about what is the most productive society as they don't believe in society.  For example, when it comes to food safety libertarians are OK with people dying because the people are at least free and freedom trumps safety.  So a libertarian won't care about how the garden looks.

stevendobbs
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September 06, 2011, 03:16:34 PM
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perhaps, though i'm sure some people care very much for the idea that the greater good is best when the greatest are set free from society as a whole. And where minimal regulation is the enlightened approach.

It is as though, to some, the credit crunch didn't happen - or teaches no lessons.

Steven Dobbs, co founder of thunderworks ltd
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September 06, 2011, 03:21:59 PM
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Actually, libertarians each have their own view. There are guaranteed to be enough that will exhaust the environment's resources (and spoil it) for the short term gain - which is happening anyway right now. It takes vision and regulation to stop that. The most productive thing to do with any unspoiled territory, and any semi spoiled territory (such as BLM land) is to immediately declare it wilderness off limits to any development, to let it continue as nature. And then force technology to find solutions to make the existing completely spoiled areas more efficient.
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September 06, 2011, 07:03:50 PM
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Not quite true.  Libertarians don't care about what is the most productive society as they don't believe in society.  For example, when it comes to food safety libertarians are OK with people dying because the people are at least free and freedom trumps safety.  So a libertarian won't care about how the garden looks.

If people didn't want to die they should have personally infiltrated each food company to find out their ingredients and the cleanliness of the factories, and then spent their dollars accordingly. No damn government will tell businesses they have to put safety regulations on there production methods!

As a well-off white male, I have the means to thoroughly research everything I buy and cannot imagine situations where other, poorer people cannot do the same or do not have access to the choice or selection I do.
cryptobard
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September 06, 2011, 08:44:55 PM
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What you don't seem to realize is that meddling only produces more chaos...

...so, nice try.

 Kiss

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September 06, 2011, 08:54:09 PM
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What you don't seem to realize is that meddling only produces more chaos...

...so, nice try.

 Kiss



Damn right.  Every road traffic sign takes us one step closer to chaos, to complete collapse of society and ultimately the rapture. 


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September 06, 2011, 09:00:16 PM
 #8

What you don't seem to realize is that meddling only produces more chaos...

...so, nice try.

 Kiss



Damn right.  Every road traffic sign takes us one step closer to chaos, to complete collapse of society and ultimately the rapture. 



78 in a 50 is my risk bro, not yours
cryptobard
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September 06, 2011, 09:04:35 PM
 #9

What you don't seem to realize is that meddling only produces more chaos...

...so, nice try.

 Kiss



Damn right.  Every road traffic sign takes us one step closer to chaos, to complete collapse of society and ultimately the rapture. 



Never mentioned the collapse of society or rapture, only chaos. It's you who is associating chaos with negativity, not I.

And yes, complicating a system - even with traffic signs - creates more chaos. Do you really not see that? Or do you insist that trying to "order" things truly does so?
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September 06, 2011, 09:08:33 PM
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Never mentioned the collapse of society or rapture, only chaos. It's you who is associating chaos with negativity, not I.

And yes, complicating a system - even with traffic signs - creates more chaos. Do you really not see that? Or do you insist that trying to "order" things truly does so?

Dont feed the trolls.
joulesbeef
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September 06, 2011, 09:21:28 PM
 #11

the reason why libertarians dont care is that the people who would take the most risks, in employment and food and everything else would be the poor, and who gives a shit about the poor.

Rich people will buy luxery products that are guaranteed not to have these problems and of course hedge fund managers never have to worry about mine cave ins or adequate saftey equipment.

You cna look back in history for the libertarian hey days, where every street corner had a man selling an elixor that would cure you of anything that you would pay him to tell you it cured you of.

Our alcohol had rat poison in it to give it bite.
Our children worked  and you were paid ion corporate script and ended up dying "owing your soul to the company store"
black lung? well you should have gotten a different job.



No regulation is just as bad or worse than burdensome regulation. Smart regulation is the way to go.

mooo for rent
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September 06, 2011, 11:47:07 PM
 #12



This plot of land was stripped of its natural growth and planted with artificial seed. This is far from a natural environment. It's more of an example of government-enabled corporatism if anything. Certain plants get subsidies while what was natural and thriving is killed. The small and weak growth that pops up is quickly admonished to the artificially stronger plants.

This is what genuine unfettered growth looks like:



Nice try.
Anonymous
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September 07, 2011, 12:10:27 AM
 #13

Not quite true.  Libertarians don't care about what is the most productive society as they don't believe in society.  For example, when it comes to food safety libertarians are OK with people dying because the people are at least free and freedom trumps safety.  So a libertarian won't care about how the garden looks.

If people didn't want to die they should have personally infiltrated each food company to find out their ingredients and the cleanliness of the factories, and then spent their dollars accordingly. No damn government will tell businesses they have to put safety regulations on there production methods!

As a well-off white male, I have the means to thoroughly research everything I buy and cannot imagine situations where other, poorer people cannot do the same or do not have access to the choice or selection I do.
You wouldn't have to research everything you buy. You would buy products that have been respected by private regulators much like software companies registered by companies like verisign. It's even possible grocery stores would get their products inspected to cater to more market share.

Use your imagination. If people want something, they will get it. It's not like these regulatory innovations were invented by government. It all requires trust in the end and I rather trust organizations that can easily be held accountable by failure rather than by an unremorseful government that only changes every term or so.
Anonymous
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September 07, 2011, 12:12:31 AM
 #14

the reason why libertarians dont care is that the people who would take the most risks, in employment and food and everything else would be the poor, and who gives a shit about the poor.

Rich people will buy luxery products that are guaranteed not to have these problems and of course hedge fund managers never have to worry about mine cave ins or adequate saftey equipment.

You cna look back in history for the libertarian hey days, where every street corner had a man selling an elixor that would cure you of anything that you would pay him to tell you it cured you of.

Our alcohol had rat poison in it to give it bite.
Our children worked  and you were paid ion corporate script and ended up dying "owing your soul to the company store"
black lung? well you should have gotten a different job.



No regulation is just as bad or worse than burdensome regulation. Smart regulation is the way to go.


A beverage company selling tainted product won't last for very long nor will a company with a reputation of dead employees will get many workers. Use common sense.
Anonymous
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September 07, 2011, 12:13:27 AM
 #15

Not quite true.  Libertarians don't care about what is the most productive society as they don't believe in society.  For example, when it comes to food safety libertarians are OK with people dying because the people are at least free and freedom trumps safety.  So a libertarian won't care about how the garden looks.

If people didn't want to die they should have personally infiltrated each food company to find out their ingredients and the cleanliness of the factories, and then spent their dollars accordingly. No damn government will tell businesses they have to put safety regulations on there production methods!

Nobody has ever advocated this. Nobody has ever been against food regulation. We just want it to be voluntary and accountable by true incentive. Not bureaucratic democracy.
AyeYo
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September 07, 2011, 01:47:09 AM
 #16

As a full dependant and parent supported white male living in mom's basement, I have the means to thoroughly research everything I buy and cannot imagine situations where other, poorer people cannot do the same or do not have access to the choice or selection I do.

Fixed that for you.  Cheesy

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
AyeYo
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September 07, 2011, 01:49:10 AM
 #17

the reason why libertarians dont care is that the people who would take the most risks, in employment and food and everything else would be the poor, and who gives a shit about the poor.

Rich people will buy luxery products that are guaranteed not to have these problems and of course hedge fund managers never have to worry about mine cave ins or adequate saftey equipment.

You cna look back in history for the libertarian hey days, where every street corner had a man selling an elixor that would cure you of anything that you would pay him to tell you it cured you of.

Our alcohol had rat poison in it to give it bite.
Our children worked  and you were paid ion corporate script and ended up dying "owing your soul to the company store"
black lung? well you should have gotten a different job.



No regulation is just as bad or worse than burdensome regulation. Smart regulation is the way to go.



Actually you don't even have to look back in time at all.  We have a modern libertarian utopia in full swing right now.  It's called Somalia.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
FirstAscent
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September 07, 2011, 01:54:04 AM
 #18

This is what genuine unfettered growth looks like:



Actually, that's what heavily protected land looks like, until a non regulated society gets a hold of it. This isn't 4,000 BC, with a small population. This is the 21st century, and there's more than enough people and businesses who want to put that land to "wise-use", as they say.
AyeYo
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September 07, 2011, 02:04:45 AM
 #19

Not quite true.  Libertarians don't care about what is the most productive society as they don't believe in society.  For example, when it comes to food safety libertarians are OK with people dying because the people are at least free and freedom trumps safety.  So a libertarian won't care about how the garden looks.

If people didn't want to die they should have personally infiltrated each food company to find out their ingredients and the cleanliness of the factories, and then spent their dollars accordingly. No damn government will tell businesses they have to put safety regulations on there production methods!

Nobody has ever advocated this. Nobody has ever been against food regulation. We just want it to be voluntary and accountable by true incentive. Not bureaucratic democracy.

Can you define "true incentive" for me?

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
NghtRppr
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September 07, 2011, 03:58:27 AM
 #20



vs.

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