Why a drop to about $2/coin will be good for bitcoins

[Minsc]

Bitcoins should be a currency and be somewhat close to the new universal currency, the euro, which is usually about $1.50.

All this extra price has caused people to buy all these mining rigs and mine coins.  I think this hurts bitcoins.  Mining should be done as a hobby.  Mining should be done by individuals with cheap NVIDIA cards at 1Mhash/sec not for money but just to get a sample of bitcoins.



When mining for a month on normal hardware (not expensive stuff miners use), gets you less than one bitcoin a month, it's bad.  Mining should be to get people something to play with, not as a profit.  It's best if electricity costs more than mining so it's worthwhile for some kid who just wants to buy a dime bag on The Silk Road to mine for a month to get that $10 plus shipping to try it.  I do support mining pools as they make it easier for people with cheaper hardware to get a few coins without buying them, however currently mining for a month with cheap computers most people have (not the mining rigs and expensive video cards most miners have) won't even get one bitcoin.

I'm not speculating if it will fall this low.  I am just saying it would be good for bitcoins.

[FreeMoney]

So Bitcoin can be like major world currencies if the total in existence is $1.50 x 8mil = $12mil? Don't think so. Not saying it won't drop, but if it drops it'll be because it's crap, not because it's a major world currency.

[Minsc]

I wrote this on another thread and I think it sums it up: Mining needs to be a literal loss of money after electricity so all those people mining for profit stop and the only miners are people who find it too burdensome to buy bitcoins--this way it helps by getting lots of new buyers of bitcoin related goods.

[ElectricMucus]

I don't get it, why must mining be a loss?

As for cheap cards, the majority already does mine with very cheap equipment, an there is alot of them. Just people who are casual or on and off gamers like me who like to finance their investment in a video card.

I mine with a 5770 and Llamo APU around 280 mhash @ stock clocks. And a majority of the hashrate comes from people like me. Freak miners, in the GPU class are a dying species. Within the next few months this kind of operation will be completely unprofitable because of FPGAs and alike.

So much has be written on the subject, there is simply no way around it.
But that's a good thing, since it can potentially advance the innovation in the field of supercomputing. FPGAs will not cut it in the long run and once we have 12.5 and 6.25 BTC per block FPGAs would need to be phased out as well making room for MPPAs and FWI designs.

This could finally introduce the golden age of computing where architectural changes aren't dictated by large corporations and vested interests.

[Minsc]

I mean someone with an emachine and a 2Ghz CPU with no external video card or maybe some $30 NVIDIA video card that does 10Mhash/sec.

All these competition for mining just has ruined mining for everyone.  Let the people using freshly mined coins do them at a 50% loss of electricity.  This way it'll just be kids who have trouble getting money into bitcoin to begin with.

[ElectricMucus]

I mean someone with an emachine and a 2Ghz CPU with no external video card or maybe some $30 NVIDIA video card that does 10Mhash/sec.

All these competition for mining just has ruined mining for everyone.  Let the people using freshly mined coins do them at a 50% loss of electricity.  This way it'll just be kids who have trouble getting money into bitcoin to begin with.

Well competition is part of the game, the fact that nvidia cards aren't suited for mining is nothing anybody can do about. Mining is not about distributing the currency it is about innovation.

Innovating takes risk and this risk has to be rewarded, this is the only way bitcoin is gonna grow. And in order for it to be successful difficulty has to remain at the cutting edge as much as possible in order to provide the most security.

And something other to think about: The "bitcoin billionaires" will be not the freak miners. They will be the pioneers who either were the first to use a particular computing technology or, even more the ones who innovate in adapting bitcoin as a use as a actual currency. Merchants, producers of real world goods and service providers who are the first in the crowd will most likely get the largest part of the slice in the long run.

Who you gonna be?
Choose wisely

[Minsc]

Don't get me wrong, I really like how people can make their whole living mining.

The problem to me is that it stops being some individual and just ends up being about rich people making money.  You can innovate all you want, but making money mining is really about affording lots of mining cards.  When in fact mining innnovation needs to switch to people being innovative at getting free electricity.  I think most of the mined coins are by some big rich organizations in Russia or somewhere when they need to be by the guys who mine because their dorm/apartment has free electricity and they don't mine a huge amount so it's not noticed but they still get some good money doing it.

[ElectricMucus]

Well, I sincerely believe that those freak miners will hold the bags very soon, if you pay attention to the emerging technologies I mentioned and research it a little I think you"ll agree.
I can't tell you too much, as I said competition is the game but be assured that the current state of things will not hold on very long

[Minsc]

I posted in another thread in alternative currencies and I'll mention here, mining needs to be redone so coins aren't gained by faster computers.  Mining will need some algorithm that computers can't solve and humans manually solving them will be faster.  Then when people make a living mining coins, it's something they will spend 8 hours a day doing like a real job and plus encryption will be harder to crack.

[ElectricMucus]

I posted in another thread in alternative currencies and I'll mention here, mining needs to be redone so coins aren't gained by faster computers.  Mining will need some algorithm that computers can't solve and humans manually solving them will be faster.  Then when people make a living mining coins, it's something they will spend 8 hours a day doing like a real job and plus encryption will be harder to crack.

Well, this is something that hasn't been understood well enough to do it.
If you find a transformation which could in-cooperate peer-reviewed research in parapsychology into a system it could be incredible successful. The problem is the further you go the less the human mind can comprehend it at least at the current state of global consciousness

[Minsc]

I don't know how a CAPTCHA is paranormal.

[ElectricMucus]

I don't know how a CAPTCHA is paranormal.

They aren't so they don't work

[rebuilder]

I don't see a solution being proposed here. "Mining" is rewarded to incentivize the contribution of resources to securing the network. The reward is set to drop over time, presumably because it is assumed that over time, more and more people will have sufficient investment in Bitcoin to justify the CPU expenses even at a loss.

How would you change the system without compromising security?

[Synaptic]

I don't see a solution being proposed here. "Mining" is rewarded to incentivize the contribution of resources to securing the network. The reward is set to drop over time, presumably because it is assumed that over time, more and more people will have sufficient investment in Bitcoin to justify the CPU expenses even at a loss.

How would you change the system without compromising security?

Try this.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=41059.0

If there were ever any developer interest in an honest crypto-currency with sound fundamentals, I'd love to work with them on bringing my design to fruition.

But there won't be, because everyone that frequents this forum are get-rich-quick-tards.

[proudhon]

I don't see a solution being proposed here. "Mining" is rewarded to incentivize the contribution of resources to securing the network. The reward is set to drop over time, presumably because it is assumed that over time, more and more people will have sufficient investment in Bitcoin to justify the CPU expenses even at a loss.

How would you change the system without compromising security?

Try this.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=41059.0

If there were ever any developer interest in an honest crypto-currency with sound fundamentals, I'd love to work with them on bringing my design to fruition.

But there won't be, because everyone that frequents this forum are get-rich-quick-tards.

Well, then maybe this isn't the best venue to seek out developer interest in your honest crypto-currency with sound fundamentals.

[Minsc]

Well problem is someone has to code the whole thing and a true good replacement will be recoded from scratch.

[kgo]

I don't see a solution being proposed here. "Mining" is rewarded to incentivize the contribution of resources to securing the network. The reward is set to drop over time, presumably because it is assumed that over time, more and more people will have sufficient investment in Bitcoin to justify the CPU expenses even at a loss.

How would you change the system without compromising security?

Try this.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=41059.0

If there were ever any developer interest in an honest crypto-currency with sound fundamentals, I'd love to work with them on bringing my design to fruition.

But there won't be, because everyone that frequents this forum are get-rich-quick-tards.

Or it might be because you refuse to publish said design, making it impossible for a developer to evaluate the viability of said design.  But, yeah, keep blaming all of us get-rich-quick-tards.

[Richard Rahl]

I'm not speculating if it will fall this low.  I am just saying it would be good for bitcoins.

I completely agree with you on every single point.

http://modelrockettier.com/lolz/thumbnails/funny-pictures-bravo-bunny.jpg

[Brunic]

We(we are a duo of miners) run presently at around 8 GHash/s, so I consider myself a big miner.

Get-rich-quick? Man, seriously, we're far from being lunatic. We're not mining hoping to pay myself a nice new card to play that awesomenewgamewithhighgraphics. Mining is a job that need to be done. The more there is mining power, the more the network is secure. If you don't want to do it, fine. But don't come shitting on us, hoping that we disappear when you don't want to do this job.

We, big miners, are working hard to find new way of making mining efficient and profitable. We want to live with that, so we need to optimize our processes and try to do the best job possible for the money available. It's a job, and it's hard. We're offering 24/7 mining power for the network, so it stays secure from external attacks. It's not with people mining every 2 or 3 days with 1 card that you're going to secure that network. It's too inconstant.

Right now, with around 3 millions dollars, you can buy enough stuff to own more than 50% of the network. That's not a lot. If somebody really wanted to attack the network, it is really cheap to do it. I see often people worrying about governments trying to shut down Bitcoin with laws. They don't need to use law, they just need to invest 3 millions (on a country budget, that's nothing) and the network is dead.

The lower the price goes, the less incentive there is for mining, the less secure the network is, the cheaper it is to attack it.

[Synaptic]

We(we are a duo of miners) run presently at around 8 GHash/s, so I consider myself a big miner.

Get-rich-quick? Man, seriously, we're far from being lunatic. We're not mining hoping to pay myself a nice new card to play that awesomenewgamewithhighgraphics. Mining is a job that need to be done. The more there is mining power, the more the network is secure. If you don't want to do it, fine. But don't come shitting on us, hoping that we disappear when you don't want to do this job.

We, big miners, are working hard to find new way of making mining efficient and profitable. We want to live with that, so we need to optimize our processes and try to do the best job possible for the money available. It's a job, and it's hard. We're offering 24/7 mining power for the network, so it stays secure from external attacks. It's not with people mining every 2 or 3 days with 1 card that you're going to secure that network. It's too inconstant.

Right now, with around 3 millions dollars, you can buy enough stuff to own more than 50% of the network. That's not a lot. If somebody really wanted to attack the network, it is really cheap to do it. I see often people worrying about governments trying to shut down Bitcoin with laws. They don't need to use law, they just need to invest 3 millions (on a country budget, that's nothing) and the network is dead.

The lower the price goes, the less incentive there is for mining, the less secure the network is, the cheaper it is to attack it.

Firstly, if you think you're a big miner with 8Gh/s...uh...

...anyway, you're not doing the network a favor by "securing" it.

Bitcoin is a shit design. People accept the flaws of the Bitcoin because they are either fucking stupid, or are profiteers that don't give a shit either way.

[helloworld]

Mining should be done as a hobby.

Vladimir must be having fun with his hobby.

[rebuilder]

Try this.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=41059.0

If there were ever any developer interest in an honest crypto-currency with sound fundamentals, I'd love to work with them on bringing my design to fruition.

But there won't be, because everyone that frequents this forum are get-rich-quick-tards.

"Secret sauce"?
"Get-rich-quick-tards"?

I've said it before, but I'll repeat myself. You're obnoxious. I'm not sure you're an out-and-out troll (exclusively, I mean), but nothing you have said has given me any reason to believe in your ability to design a better currency system, and since you don't give any real details about, say, how you will secure the system... Well.

Good day, sir.

[westkybitcoins]

@Synaptic: Two questions...

1) Does your proposal result in a limited number of ?coins being produced?

2) Does your proposal attempt to distribute ?coins at a constant rate, or a variable rate? And if variable, what determines the rate of distribution?

-------------------------

@Minsc: I don't see how you're going to avoid what you're perceiving as a problem.

Mining needs to be based on something. In the case of Bitcoin, it's based on computational power. Whatever resource you propose to replace computational power, is going to be more available to those with more wealth.

Even if mining required answering Captchas, who will be more successful at this: someone trying to mine alone as a hobby, or someone who can hire a roomful of folks to do it for him? Greater wealth always means greater power. There's no way to avoid this in the physical realm.

[Synaptic]

Try this.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=41059.0

If there were ever any developer interest in an honest crypto-currency with sound fundamentals, I'd love to work with them on bringing my design to fruition.

But there won't be, because everyone that frequents this forum are get-rich-quick-tards.

"Secret sauce"?
"Get-rich-quick-tards"?

I've said it before, but I'll repeat myself. You're obnoxious. I'm not sure you're an out-and-out troll (exclusively, I mean), but nothing you have said has given me any reason to believe in your ability to design a better currency system, and since you don't give any real details about, say, how you will secure the system... Well.

Good day, sir.

Good, I hope I'm obnoxious.

Because you know who's REALLY obnoxious?

Fucking Bitcoin proponents. People who think that poorly thought out alpha level proof-of-concept crypto-currency is the savior of the world financial markets and a viable speculation and investment vehicle.

Those are the REALLY fucking obnoxious people...

[Synaptic]

@Synaptic: Two questions...

1) Does your proposal result in a limited number of ?coins being produced?

2) Does your proposal attempt to distribute ?coins at a constant rate, or a variable rate? And if variable, what determines the rate of distribution?

-------------------------

@Minsc: I don't see how you're going to avoid what you're perceiving as a problem.

Mining needs to be based on something. In the case of Bitcoin, it's based on computational power. Whatever resource you propose to replace computational power, is going to be more available to those with more wealth.

Even if mining required answering Captchas, who will be more successful at this: someone trying to mine alone as a hobby, or someone who can hire a roomful of folks to do it for him? Greater wealth always means greater power. There's no way to avoid this in the physical realm.

Excellent questions, and I wish you would have posted them in the alt-crypto thread instead, but here goes:

1) The limits are variable. Yes, there is a limit. No, it's not a hard limit. Maybe, I can elaborate further in the reference thread later.

2) Variable rate. Read the whole thread, I address this. Block generation is tied to economic indices.

[bcpokey]

@Synaptic: Two questions...

1) Does your proposal result in a limited number of ?coins being produced?

2) Does your proposal attempt to distribute ?coins at a constant rate, or a variable rate? And if variable, what determines the rate of distribution?

-------------------------

@Minsc: I don't see how you're going to avoid what you're perceiving as a problem.

Mining needs to be based on something. In the case of Bitcoin, it's based on computational power. Whatever resource you propose to replace computational power, is going to be more available to those with more wealth.

Even if mining required answering Captchas, who will be more successful at this: someone trying to mine alone as a hobby, or someone who can hire a roomful of folks to do it for him? Greater wealth always means greater power. There's no way to avoid this in the physical realm.

Excellent questions, and I wish you would have posted them in the alt-crypto thread instead, but here goes:

1) The limits are variable. Yes, there is a limit. No, it's not a hard limit. Maybe, I can elaborate further in the reference thread later.

2) Variable rate. Read the whole thread, I address this. Block generation is tied to economic indices.

No, you know what is really obnoxious? People who bitch and moan about something, but don't do anything to correct it. You say you have an idea for something better, but you don't have the skills to implement it, and won't release the idea so that someone with the skills could consider implementing it. So, Bravo, you've done nothing (except puff yourself up in alternate threads like a jackass). 

At least coinhunter in all his clownery had something out there competing with bitcoin when talking all his talk.

[Transisto]

Bitcoins should be a currency and be $1.50 ?? the euro It's a paper based fiat currency. !

Mining should be done by individuals with cheap NVIDIA cards at 1Mhash/sec not for money but just to get a sample of bitcoins.
Why even bother,  0.00000001BTC it's not some novelty you'll have fun analyzing in your lab.

When mining for a month on normal hardware (not expensive stuff miners use), gets you less than one bitcoin a month, it's bad.  Mining should be to get people something to play with, not as a profit. Ps: You can't even play head or tail with it.

 It's best if electricity costs more than mining so it's worthwhile for some kid who just wants to buy a dime bag on The Silk Road to mine for a month to get that $10 plus shipping to try it.  I do support mining pools as they make it easier for people with cheaper hardware to get a few coins without buying them, however currently mining for a month with cheap computers most people have (not the mining rigs and expensive video cards most miners have) won't even get one bitcoin.

 I am just saying it would be good for bitcoins.  2$ per BTC would mean BTC are not worth mining on the most efficient GPU.

Instead of loosing money mining on your nvidia have you considered offering services to be paid in BTC ? ,,,

With 230+ posts it look like you haven't learned anything here.

What the fuck have you all been smoking to reply to this ?

[Minsc]

Instead of loosing money mining on your nvidia have you considered offering services to be paid in BTC ? ,,,

The NVIDIA is for compatibility with a game I want to play.  I have not bought the card yet.

Anyway, I'm not sure what employment I can get to be paid in BTC, but I really would like to try.  And there is a website (in someone's signature) full of people saying they'll do this or that for BTC but no website with want ads that will pay people BTC to do things.

[westkybitcoins]

Instead of loosing money mining on your nvidia have you considered offering services to be paid in BTC ? ,,,

The NVIDIA is for compatibility with a game I want to play.  I have not bought the card yet.

Anyway, I'm not sure what employment I can get to be paid in BTC, but I really would like to try.  And there is a website (in someone's signature) full of people saying they'll do this or that for BTC but no website with want ads that will pay people BTC to do things.

Unless you know locals who use bitcoins, you might want to focus on services that can be offered online.

What languages do you know? You might be able to offer teaching, tutoring or conversational services for bitcoins.

If you know any programming, there may be bitcoin bounties for some code segments wanted by others on this forum.

How about artistic skills? Can you draw well, or perhaps create original designs for personal projects (nightstands, etc.) to certain specs?

You might be surprised the things others find valuable.

[The_Duke]

Good, I hope I'm obnoxious.

Because you know who's REALLY obnoxious?

Fucking Bitcoin proponents. People who think that poorly thought out alpha level proof-of-concept crypto-currency is the savior of the world financial markets and a viable speculation and investment vehicle.

Those are the REALLY fucking obnoxious people...

+1

[DavinciJ15]

Good, I hope I'm obnoxious.

Because you know who's REALLY obnoxious?

Fucking Bitcoin proponents. People who think that poorly thought out alpha level proof-of-concept crypto-currency is the savior of the world financial markets and a viable speculation and investment vehicle.

Those are the REALLY fucking obnoxious people...

I have learned nothing except you are an angry and perhaps jealous individual.

@Synaptic: Two questions...

1) Does your proposal result in a limited number of ?coins being produced?

2) Does your proposal attempt to distribute ?coins at a constant rate, or a variable rate? And if variable, what determines the rate of distribution?

-------------------------

@Minsc: I don't see how you're going to avoid what you're perceiving as a problem.

Mining needs to be based on something. In the case of Bitcoin, it's based on computational power. Whatever resource you propose to replace computational power, is going to be more available to those with more wealth.

Even if mining required answering Captchas, who will be more successful at this: someone trying to mine alone as a hobby, or someone who can hire a roomful of folks to do it for him? Greater wealth always means greater power. There's no way to avoid this in the physical realm.

Excellent questions, and I wish you would have posted them in the alt-crypto thread instead, but here goes:

1) The limits are variable. Yes, there is a limit. No, it's not a hard limit. Maybe, I can elaborate further in the reference thread later.

2) Variable rate. Read the whole thread, I address this. Block generation is tied to economic indices.

Pie in the sky compared to a working solution!  Your idea may work but I would not agree to use your solution as free and thinking human being because in reality resources are limited not unlimited.

Your solution will not have the support of good honest people but it would be supported by the dishonest as in the current currency system you can manage your currency buy contracting and expanding the supply through deceptive measures thus making you no different than a central bank.  Once again your currency idea may work as the dishonest are more powerful than the honest people today and if you get one of them to support you, then you could get lucky.  This is what Facebook and the rest hope to achieve as we go through a currency crisis.

"[unlimited fiat] money has had the effect in your state that it will ever have, to ruin commerce, oppress the honest, and open the door to every species of fraud and injustice." George Washington

I want to use the same colorful metaphor towards you but it would bring me down to your level of anger and evil.   I need to stop being angry at bankers and people such as yourself and focus on doing something to protect my self and improve the living conditions of those that agree with me or the ideas of Ron Paul.

Davinci
Working hard everyday to protect my self first and hopefully end the global banker occupation.

[Synaptic]

Good, I hope I'm obnoxious.

Because you know who's REALLY obnoxious?

Fucking Bitcoin proponents. People who think that poorly thought out alpha level proof-of-concept crypto-currency is the savior of the world financial markets and a viable speculation and investment vehicle.

Those are the REALLY fucking obnoxious people...

I have learned nothing except you are an angry and perhaps jealous individual.

@Synaptic: Two questions...

1) Does your proposal result in a limited number of ?coins being produced?

2) Does your proposal attempt to distribute ?coins at a constant rate, or a variable rate? And if variable, what determines the rate of distribution?

-------------------------

@Minsc: I don't see how you're going to avoid what you're perceiving as a problem.

Mining needs to be based on something. In the case of Bitcoin, it's based on computational power. Whatever resource you propose to replace computational power, is going to be more available to those with more wealth.

Even if mining required answering Captchas, who will be more successful at this: someone trying to mine alone as a hobby, or someone who can hire a roomful of folks to do it for him? Greater wealth always means greater power. There's no way to avoid this in the physical realm.

Excellent questions, and I wish you would have posted them in the alt-crypto thread instead, but here goes:

1) The limits are variable. Yes, there is a limit. No, it's not a hard limit. Maybe, I can elaborate further in the reference thread later.

2) Variable rate. Read the whole thread, I address this. Block generation is tied to economic indices.

Pie in the sky compared to a working solution!  Your idea may work but I would not agree to use your solution as free and thinking human being because in reality resources are limited not unlimited.

Your solution will not have the support of good honest people but it would be supported by the dishonest as in the current currency system you can manage your currency buy contracting and expanding the supply through deceptive measures thus making you no different than a central bank.  Once again your currency idea may work as the dishonest are more powerful than the honest people today and if you get one of them to support you, then you could get lucky.  This is what Facebook and the rest hope to achieve as we go through a currency crisis.

"[unlimited fiat] money has had the effect in your state that it will ever have, to ruin commerce, oppress the honest, and open the door to every species of fraud and injustice." George Washington

I want to use the same colorful metaphor towards you but it would bring me down to your level of anger and evil.   I need to stop being angry at bankers and people such as yourself and focus on doing something to protect my self and improve the living conditions of those that agree with me or the ideas of Ron Paul.

Davinci
Working hard everyday to protect my self first and hopefully end the global banker occupation.

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about, you obviously haven't read my conceptual description in the alt-crypto forum (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=41059.0), or you're simply too fucking stupid to understand it.

And your youtube videos were hilarious. Even more-so as my market predictions play out to the letter.

[Reckman]

Clearly you dont understand bitcoin

• mining has a purpose >.<
• price is irrelevant to the end user except for price stability which is a different thing
• in order for the market cap to increase the price of bitcoin has to increase, which is good for miners, investors, currency exchangers, and bitcoins in general, good press really, who is it bad for? People with a low iq that dont understand decimals...anyonelse??
• // end thread //

[Minsc]

I'm mining at deepbit with my 4586.60 MH/s

I think your signature exlpains why you were so angry.

[Fakeman]

price is irrelevant to the end user except for price stability which is a different thing

I agree.

in order for the market cap to increase the price of bitcoin has to increase, which is good for miners, investors, currency exchangers, and bitcoins in general, good press really, who is it bad for? People with a low iq that dont understand decimals...anyonelse??

People who bought lots of them with real money and were left holding the bag when the bubble popped?