THERE IS NO TAX and there NEVER be any Tax on Bitcoin

[bridgesro]

There's a central problem with this argument: the U.S. government taxes your income, not your money. That income doesn't have to be in the form on cash or cash equivalents: you could receive a car as a gift from someone and still have to pay tax on the value of the car.

Whether or not Bitcoin is considered money in the U.S. wouldn't really matter to the IRS, I would think. Not saying I agree with it, of course, but I would be careful about the tax treatment of your Bitcoins.

Of course, it's also like cash income: it's very hard for the IRS to prove you earned any.

EDIT: The IRS also has a very wide definition of "income", as evidenced by the gift example above.

[jc01480]

Hypothetically speaking, if fiat currency was re-directed to the BTC network, and thusly never reconverted, the idea of taxation becomes nil.  Until that possibility arises, tax that a$$.  (But the idea makes me smile.)

[LostDutchman]

There is no Tax and there never be any Tax on Bitcoin. PERIOD.

One of Bitcoin famous rule is this:
No One can Tax Bitcoin

-------------------------------------------------


Better take a look around there, Tom.

Your theory just got it right up the Strada Chocolata!

My $.02.

[benjamin07]

I don't think paying tax is a bad idea or concept, it pays for hospital, police etc and it is about sharing. So i am not with you on that.

I'll go by Christ and give Benjamins to the 13 evil bloodlines and bitcoins to bitcoin people

For non Christian people: Jesus Christ was asked by the worshipers of money in control of the Jewish society of the time, to test him if his loyalty is to the Jewish people who do not believe in paganism whether the Jews should or should not pay tax to Cesar. He looked at the coin with the face of Cesar on it and told them give to Cesar what belong to Cesar and give to God what belongs to God (meaning acts of kindness to others).

First i would not trade BTC for USD, not for a billion USD. There will always be more billions of that, who will give me back that once off BTC?

Second there is a sheer stupidity in paying tax by miners at the running rate when the BTC was mined.

Say I'm a carpenter, how stupid is that when I make a new desk i pay tax on its street value before I even sell it?

PS: The 13 bloodlines of evil are afraid of revolutions.

[sergio]

Paying the inflation tax is wrong, the dollar has lost about 99% of its value in 100 years, that makes the dollar useless for saving.

currencies like anything should be able to compete in the open market against each other, the problem is that since the dollar is inferior to bitcoin in many ways, there is a need by the gov/fed (private but related to gov) to make a different set of rules for digital currencies.

Do you keep track of every expense or gain with the dollar? of course not, why should it be different with bitcoin.

An inflationary currency supports wars and thats wrong, why should bitcoin users have to pay the war tax.

Double taxing is wrong, when does the tax stop.

Lets say you get paid in dollars and pay your taxes, and then buy bitcoin, those bitcoins have already been taxed, lets say the dollar collapses and looses purchasing power, why should bitcoin users pay additional taxes to subside the dollar.

It is true that taxes are needed, but not double taxing, and cripple small business and users.

For first time in history people get to enjoy the power of taking the duties of a bank by managing their own currency, and now a different set of rules is applied retroactive against bitcoin, applying any law retroactive should in itself be illegal since no one has a Cristal ball to predict the future, people should be responsible for current laws not future laws being applied in the past.
 

Let bitcoin be free, is was free for many years 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, let the freedom continue.

If the dollar can not compete against bitcoin, it is up to the feds to improve the dollar, and not the IRS to cripple bitcoin.

I would argue that an equal set of laws and rules where the word dollar and bitcoin could be legally interchanged would be fair anything else is corrupt.

Bitcoin is a financial revolution, let this revolution continue its course.

[Peter R]

Let bitcoin be free, is was free for many years 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, let the freedom continue.

Bitcoin is as (legally) free now as it was in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012.  No laws have changed.  The IRS issued guidance on its interpretation of the existing laws that also applied in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012.  

[BitOnyx]

You can tax cash flow.

Well government might try to tax bitcoin but that would be rather hard to execute.

"13 terrorist European bloodlines" eeee

[miri94]

What's the law with regards to barter economy. If I give you apples and you give me oranges, who pays what tax?

Replace apples with BTC but keep oranges.

Mining is not a services to the BTC network/community, not in any other way than the production line of LCD screens is a service to the community of TV watchers. You don't pay tax on tvs while they are in production line or on the shelf, until they are exchanged for currency.

Moreover, say you mine solo for a year and then the block is orphaned. You can't prove the loss because that block did not make it to the blockchain.

In summary, the IRS ruling is archaic and the people behind it should be fired and replaced with modern day people.

[crocko]

I found something: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvqkQvOWgeo

[sergio]

Let bitcoin be free, is was free for many years 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, let the freedom continue.

Bitcoin is as (legally) free now as it was in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012.  No laws have changed.  The IRS issued guidance on its interpretation of the existing laws that also applied in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012.  

Laws have changed for practical purposes, mid 2013 Fincen, and recently the IRS.

Lets choose the year 2009, there is absolutely no word on any law book in regards to Bitcoin.

As far as being defined as property by the IRS in 2014 while in 2009, unless you had a crystal ball it was impossible to predict it was going to be defined as properly, many other countries have let it be free, or defined as a currency, or some as commodity. After all Bitcoin is a string of numbers. The law nowhere says a number is property.

Also any retroactive law is illegal.

A guidance is a law for practical purposes, since it is enforced with guns, a true guidance is a voluntary action with no reprisals.

Just like when central banks release their so called guidance, the price of Bitcoin goes down a little, if it was only guidance and nothing else  business in China would be normal and would not have an impact on the value of Bitcoin, of course it is not guidance its law, look at the price of Bitcoin it took a huge dive due to this so called guidances.

If you where in 2009, exchanges operated anonymously, no mention of the word tax by any authority, no restrictions on exchanges,  bitcoin by mostly everyone was considered a currency not a commodity, laws have changed for all practical purposes.

If someone creates a currency (Satoshi) why on earth would you have a motive to believe it was not a currency, unless of course it was announce not to be a currency by someone in power to dictate laws, which it did happen just recently by the IRS, and since laws can not be retroactively, I would think most bitcoiners would agree that legally before the official guidance bitcoin was a currency and it is still a currency in most of the world.

Also Fincen earlier had ruled that bitcoin was money, since anyone exchanging bitcoins for us dollars had to get a permit as an MSB "Money Service Bossiness" not "Property Service Business", so Finces says its money, the IRS its property, and lets wait I am sure some other government agency will declare it to be something else its a matter of time, they all want to get a piece of the pie.

So in brief the law is new, and any good lawyer can enforce that is not applied retroactively since all retroactive laws are known to be illegal.

If they could apply laws retroactively they may want to tax my "cumpa coin", they may as well try to tax us before we were born after all the law is the law.

[LostDutchman]

Let bitcoin be free, is was free for many years 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, let the freedom continue.

Bitcoin is as (legally) free now as it was in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012.  No laws have changed.  The IRS issued guidance on its interpretation of the existing laws that also applied in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012.  

Laws have changed for practical purposes, mid 2013 Fincen, and recently the IRS.

Lets choose the year 2009, there is absolutely no word on any law book in regards to Bitcoin.

As far as being defined as property by the IRS in 2014 while in 2009, unless you had a crystal ball it was impossible to predict it was going to be defined as properly, many other countries have let it be free, or defined as a currency, or some as commodity. After all Bitcoin is a string of numbers. The law nowhere says a number is property.

Also any retroactive law is illegal.

A guidance is a law for practical purposes, since it is enforced with guns, a true guidance is a voluntary action with no reprisals.

Just like when central banks release their so called guidance, the price of Bitcoin goes down a little, if it was only guidance and nothing else  business in China would be normal and would not have an impact on the value of Bitcoin, of course it is not guidance its law, look at the price of Bitcoin it took a huge dive due to this so called guidances.

If you where in 2009, exchanges operated anonymously, no mention of the word tax by any authority, no restrictions on exchanges,  bitcoin by mostly everyone was considered a currency not a commodity, laws have changed for all practical purposes.

If someone creates a currency (Satoshi) why on earth would you have a motive to believe it was not a currency, unless of course it was announce not to be a currency by someone in power to dictate laws, which it did happen just recently by the IRS, and since laws can not be retroactively, I would think most bitcoiners would agree that legally before the official guidance bitcoin was a currency and it is still a currency in most of the world.

Also Fincen earlier had ruled that bitcoin was money, since anyone exchanging bitcoins for us dollars had to get a permit as an MSB "Money Service Bossiness" not "Property Service Business", so Finces says its money, the IRS its property, and lets wait I am sure some other government agency will declare it to be something else its a matter of time, they all want to get a piece of the pie.

So in brief the law is new, and any good lawyer can enforce that is not applied retroactively since all retroactive laws are known to be illegal.

If they could apply laws retroactively they may want to tax my "cumpa coin", they may as well try to tax us before we were born after all the law is the law.

Ex Post Facto does not apply here.

The IRS ruling is just that; a ruling, not a law.

Thanks for reading!

My $.02.

[counter]

I find this thread to be amusing for obvious reason and even and if you ask me even more interesting thoughts and views will come on this topic.  The OP is ahead thier time on this one I guess.

[Keeminakar]

I'm not sure that there will never be any tax on Bitcoin. No one knows what will happen next year

[jolipenria]

I'm not sure that there will never be any tax on Bitcoin. No one knows what will happen next year

True! No one can predict what is gonna happen in future - some people tell that Bitcoin is no longer going to live, some people tell that it is going to be worldwide currency that would be easy to change to USD!
Now the government describes Bticoin as property that made  a lot of people be confused

[sergio]

Let bitcoin be free, is was free for many years 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, let the freedom continue.

Bitcoin is as (legally) free now as it was in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012.  No laws have changed.  The IRS issued guidance on its interpretation of the existing laws that also applied in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012.  

Laws have changed for practical purposes, mid 2013 Fincen, and recently the IRS.

Lets choose the year 2009, there is absolutely no word on any law book in regards to Bitcoin.

As far as being defined as property by the IRS in 2014 while in 2009, unless you had a crystal ball it was impossible to predict it was going to be defined as properly, many other countries have let it be free, or defined as a currency, or some as commodity. After all Bitcoin is a string of numbers. The law nowhere says a number is property.

Also any retroactive law is illegal.

A guidance is a law for practical purposes, since it is enforced with guns, a true guidance is a voluntary action with no reprisals.

Just like when central banks release their so called guidance, the price of Bitcoin goes down a little, if it was only guidance and nothing else  business in China would be normal and would not have an impact on the value of Bitcoin, of course it is not guidance its law, look at the price of Bitcoin it took a huge dive due to this so called guidances.

If you where in 2009, exchanges operated anonymously, no mention of the word tax by any authority, no restrictions on exchanges,  bitcoin by mostly everyone was considered a currency not a commodity, laws have changed for all practical purposes.

If someone creates a currency (Satoshi) why on earth would you have a motive to believe it was not a currency, unless of course it was announce not to be a currency by someone in power to dictate laws, which it did happen just recently by the IRS, and since laws can not be retroactively, I would think most bitcoiners would agree that legally before the official guidance bitcoin was a currency and it is still a currency in most of the world.

Also Fincen earlier had ruled that bitcoin was money, since anyone exchanging bitcoins for us dollars had to get a permit as an MSB "Money Service Bossiness" not "Property Service Business", so Finces says its money, the IRS its property, and lets wait I am sure some other government agency will declare it to be something else its a matter of time, they all want to get a piece of the pie.

So in brief the law is new, and any good lawyer can enforce that is not applied retroactively since all retroactive laws are known to be illegal.

If they could apply laws retroactively they may want to tax my "cumpa coin", they may as well try to tax us before we were born after all the law is the law.

Ex Post Facto does not apply here.

The IRS ruling is just that; a ruling, not a law.

Thanks for reading!

My $.02.

A ruling that is enforced with guns is for all practical purposes a law.
This is not something that is voluntary, that would make it a ruling for practically purposes.

Bitcoin it is a currency, but not under US law since the IRS ruling destroys fungibility and then the IRS labels it property.
Bitcoin is being hurt very bad by this ruling in the USA and the current price dip reflect that.

[gustav]

tax should be voluntary anyways ...

[zero3112]

People should be able to choose to pay or not to pay taxes but if you don't pay taxes don't except to use any of the services taxes pay for.

[seventie]

no one likes to pay taxes.
so if you can choose to pay or not then there would be a lot problems

[Satterfield]

Yes it is very nice to keep bitcoin without paying taxes.

[LostDutchman]

Yes it is very nice to keep bitcoin without paying taxes.

And there are ways to do just that.

My $.02.