stateless seasteaders existed for hundreds of years, we just need to join them

[Cryddit]

By the time we can live out there without loss of all access to tools and modern necessities, we will have built so much there that we will need government as a way of preserving our infrastructure. 

I'm sorry I couldn't continue after this. This is liberty 101 stuff.

Hey, it's okay, that's just theory. You don't have to believe me and I don't have to believe you. Essentially there's nothing to talk about until there's a pragmatic test. 

I'm much more interested in a much less esoteric question.

How would you design a sailboat as a one family or extended-family dwelling to maximize freedom for its inhabitants by minimizing costs and requirements while leveraging benefits from all contacts with others?  I'd be emphasizing permanent construction (nothing that rots, rusts or corrodes in the structure of the boat), simplicity (minimizing points of failure and maintenance requirements),  renewable or free energy (winds, currents, thermoclines, tides, solar -- all can be harnessed) and self-sufficiency with regards to maintenance and mobility.

I'd also be doing a lot of research into edibles from the ocean -- not just fish/protein, but also edible seaweeds, vegetables, etc.  Finally I'd be looking for good boat-borne businesses and ways to take advantage of the marine environment for business purposes, with an eye to specialize the boat design for one (or possibly more than one) such business.

[Anon136]

This comment I like.

Yes I definitely agree. I really don't know if my ideas would work. I definitely could be wrong. I do know that I'm personally willing to take the risk involved in testing them empirically and the only thing i ask of statists, is not to agree with me and start implementing my ideas themselves, but rather to simply not shoot me for trying to test them empirically myself. I think this is a very important point that is often overlooked. I have no interest in imposing freedom on anyone else, i have no interest in imposing any of my preferences on anyone else, (except for the preference that they not harm me) i only ask that they show me the same respect i show them by not trying to force freedom on them by not trying to force tyranny on me.

Honestly I think it would probably be best not to try to blaze new trails here. There are lots of used boats out there. As I understand it many people live on their boats full time for many years. So It would seem that sailboats are able to avoid corrosion reasonably well. I'll be honest though i dont know a whole lot about it. I just join sailnet forums today so that I could start learning more. Its been a lot of fun talking to these people and I've learned a lot but I haven't asked about energy yet.

I also ordered this book today http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0071749578/sr=8-1/qid=1390425417/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1390425417&seller=&sr=8-1 it was recommended to me today by several of the members on the sailnet forums.

Probably it would be best to keep the boats spread pretty far apart and simply have small motor boats to go and visit neighbors. You wouldn't want to all try to dock near each other like in the pictures of centralized approaches to seasteading.

As for businesses this is a very important point and something i have been intensely interested in for some time now. The idea of businesses operating on large(er) boats that stayed at sea all the time and employed the seasteading community would be crucial. Certain industries would lend themselves to this sort of a model more than others. Software development is one that comes to mind, certain types of research, universities, arts.

I really would like to get this idea of a decentralized approach to seasteading out there. I just haven't seen any interest from the community on the several occasions i have brought it up. I wonder if im just missing something big and so everyone is just blowing me off. Or if there is genuinely not a lot of interest. Or if im just missing my target audience.

[Wilikon]

Here is one concrete solution for getting fresh water:

http://youtu.be/hMODuTBFpPo

[Anon136]

Here is one concrete solution for getting fresh water:

http://youtu.be/hMODuTBFpPo

heck the byproduct would probably even be marketable.

[MaxwellsDemon]

Here is one concrete solution for getting fresh water:

http://youtu.be/hMODuTBFpPo

Wow, you can boil water and then re-condense it? That's the invention of the century  

Too bad you can't actually drink distilled water, you have to re-salinate it first...

I'm still sticking with land-steading  

[Wilikon]

Here is one concrete solution for getting fresh water:

http://youtu.be/hMODuTBFpPo

Wow, you can boil water and then re-condense it? That's the invention of the century  

Too bad you can't actually drink distilled water, you have to re-salinate it first...

I'm still sticking with land-steading  

So those kids on the video are dead then?

[Anon136]

Here is one concrete solution for getting fresh water:

http://youtu.be/hMODuTBFpPo

Wow, you can boil water and then re-condense it? That's the invention of the century  

Too bad you can't actually drink distilled water, you have to re-salinate it first...

I'm still sticking with land-steading  

Sea-steading will never be for everyone.

[MaxwellsDemon]

Here is one concrete solution for getting fresh water:

http://youtu.be/hMODuTBFpPo

Wow, you can boil water and then re-condense it? That's the invention of the century  

Too bad you can't actually drink distilled water, you have to re-salinate it first...

I'm still sticking with land-steading  

So those kids on the video are dead then?

Yes, they were sacrificed to make a promotional video for GE 

But seriously, drinking a bit of distilled water is fine. Drinking only distilled water will eventually kill you. First you will urinate all your salts, then your blood pressure will drop, and eventually your extracellular solution will become hypotonic and your cells will literally start to explode (but you'll probably die of heart failure long before that happens).

One caveat - I have no idea how this machine works, except for the obvious fact that the "novel" technology it's based on is centuries old.
Maybe it actually does re-salinate the water a bit before dispensing it...

[Anon136]

Here is one concrete solution for getting fresh water:

http://youtu.be/hMODuTBFpPo

Wow, you can boil water and then re-condense it? That's the invention of the century  

Too bad you can't actually drink distilled water, you have to re-salinate it first...

I'm still sticking with land-steading  

So those kids on the video are dead then?

Yes, they were sacrificed to make a promotional video for GE 

But seriously, drinking a bit of distilled water is fine. Drinking only distilled water will eventually kill you. First you will urinate all your salts, then your blood pressure will drop, and eventually your extracellular solution will become hypotonic and your cells will literally start to explode (but you'll probably die of heart failure long before that happens).

One caveat - I have no idea how this machine works, except for the obvious fact that the "novel" technology it's based on is centuries old.
Maybe it actually does re-salinate the water a bit before dispensing it...

if worst came to worse you could always throw a pinch of the byproduct back into the output.

[MaxwellsDemon]

if worst came to worse you could always throw a pinch of the byproduct back into the output.

Well yea, but if you want to get rid of specific contaminants, like pathogens or certain unwanted chemicals, that would be counter-productive.
This is why most water-purification schemes involve various forms of filtration rather than boiling.
Boiling is extremely wasteful in terms of energy, and it still requires filtration of the byproduct before re-salination.


Anyway, disregarding this rather odd device - if the general point was that seasteaders can produce drinking water by desalinating sea water, that is certainly true. But like all aspects of seasteading, it would be very expensive.

[Anon136]

if worst came to worse you could always throw a pinch of the byproduct back into the output.

But like all aspects of seasteading, it would be very expensive.

indeed. hopefully removing the burdens of taxation, inflation, and regulation would more than counteract that additional expense but this is something that will only be able to be discovered through testing.

[User705]

Hopefully solar energy generation and battery tech will be advanced enough to eliminate the need for other fuels in propulsion and regular living on the water.  There's certainly enough sun energy out there to be able to live a semi modern lifestyle.

[MaxwellsDemon]

indeed. hopefully removing the burdens of taxation, inflation, and regulation would more than counteract that additional expense but this is something that will only be able to be discovered through testing.

I do hope you're right. I still doubt seasteading could be viable in the long run, and I certainly doubt it's scalable, but at the very least, it's important as a model.
To achieve the more important goal, ridding ourselves of oppressive government right here on dry land, we need to demonstrate successful models of government-free societies that function well.
Low-level, decentralized seasteading models like the one you're suggesting, could go a long way as a demonstration.

[MaxwellsDemon]

Hopefully solar energy generation and battery tech will be advanced enough to eliminate the need for other fuels in propulsion and regular living on the water.  There's certainly enough sun energy out there to be able to live a semi modern lifestyle.

I wouldn't count on that, since solar energy requires a lot of surface area, which is possibly the most constrained resource on a boat.

Personally, I think the only real energy source that could make seasteading viable in the long-term is miniaturized D-T fusion reactors. Of course this is always 50 years away, and it would require pretty big boats, which is exactly what OP is trying to avoid.

[User705]

Hopefully solar energy generation and battery tech will be advanced enough to eliminate the need for other fuels in propulsion and regular living on the water.  There's certainly enough sun energy out there to be able to live a semi modern lifestyle.

I wouldn't count on that, since solar energy requires a lot of surface area, which is possibly the most constrained resource on a boat.

Personally, I think the only real energy source that could make seasteading viable in the long-term is miniaturized D-T fusion reactors. Of course this is always 50 years away, and it would require pretty big boats, which is exactly what OP is trying to avoid.

It requires a lot of surface area now.  I believe solar cell conversion rates are low single digits and battery tech isn't that good either but solar tech is growing fast.  There already exists a few big boats that are only solar powered.  5-10 years and smaller boats will be able to do the same.

[MaxwellsDemon]

Hopefully solar energy generation and battery tech will be advanced enough to eliminate the need for other fuels in propulsion and regular living on the water.  There's certainly enough sun energy out there to be able to live a semi modern lifestyle.

I wouldn't count on that, since solar energy requires a lot of surface area, which is possibly the most constrained resource on a boat.

Personally, I think the only real energy source that could make seasteading viable in the long-term is miniaturized D-T fusion reactors. Of course this is always 50 years away, and it would require pretty big boats, which is exactly what OP is trying to avoid.

It requires a lot of surface area now.  I believe solar cell conversion rates are low single digits and battery tech isn't that good either but solar tech is growing fast.  There already exists a few big boats that are only solar powered.  5-10 years and smaller boats will be able to do the same.

Actually good PV cells already get to well over 10%. I doubt the efficiency will increase more than 3-fold in the foreseeable future. But maybe that will be enough for basic functions...

[User705]

This doesn't look basic.
http://mobile.theverge.com/2013/6/22/4454980/ms-turanor-planetsolar-solar-powered-boat-photo-essay
And I think that boat has been around a few years already.

[MaxwellsDemon]

This doesn't look basic.
http://mobile.theverge.com/2013/6/22/4454980/ms-turanor-planetsolar-solar-powered-boat-photo-essay
And I think that boat has been around a few years already.

That's a very cool concept boat, but I don't think it's meant for a lot of people to live on for long periods of time... And look at all that surface area covered with PV cells. I bet it still delivers less energy than a normal diesel engine.
Not to mention reliability - what do you do on a cloudy day?

By the way, I wonder if you could get boats to extract energy from waves while they're anchored down?

[Wilikon]

I if I were smart I would invent a sailboat that would double as a flexible solar panel fabric...

[Anon136]

I dont think any single approach would be right. You would probably want to use solar where you could but most of your power would have to come from a wind turbine. there is a ton of wind power at sea. i really dont think power would be a big issue as windy as it is out there. you would probably want to use these kind to keep your boat from capsizing. http://hacknmod.com/hack/next-gen-wind-energy-you-have-never-seen/

you dont see sailboats using wind power now because it would create too much drag while traveling. but if your boat spent a lot of time anchored at sea than it would become practical.