$10 straight clean arbitrage to be had going from Stamp to BTC-E....

[MatTheCat]

$10 straight clean arbitrage to be had going from Stamp to BTC-E....

.....if you reckon you could sneak any meaningful volume past the bots holding up the price on BTC-e.

I for one shall not be taking my chances.

[N12]

That's 1.2%. Wouldn't even be worth the fees and slippage.

[MatTheCat]

That's 1.2%. Wouldn't even be worth the fees and slippage.

2* 0.2% = 0.8%

Not bad for doing jack....except no way would anyone get any meaningful volume sold on BTC-e at the 'advertised' spot price. Most likely you would have to sell at a loss to get liquid again, before a bot 0.0034593456 BTC transaction sent the spot price to $10 over what you just sold at.

[humanitee]

That's 1.2%. Wouldn't even be worth the fees and slippage.

2* 0.2% = 0.8%

Not bad for doing jack....except no way would anyone get any meaningful volume sold on BTC-e at the 'advertised' spot price. Most likely you would have to sell at a loss to get liquid again, before a bot 0.0034593456 BTC transaction sent the spot price to $10 over what you just sold at.

2 * .2% = .4%

[N12]

You forgot about slippage.

[MatTheCat]

2 * .2% = .4%

1.2% - (2* .2% ) = 0.8%.

And actually it is a bit better than that.....

.....furthermore, any higher than decimal figures volume of BTC on Stamp is going for $3-5 less than the micro-transaction determined spot price on Stamp....so even more margin still, at least until you get your coins onto BTC-E and learn the hard way about trying to take small margins in bot controlled electronic markets.

Moral of the story is that there is no arbitrage and prices on all USD exchanges are being artificially held up for some reason. I never seen such blatantly mechanical trading across the respectable exchanges as I have witnessed today. Certainly this morning, on Bistamp, there was 1000 BTC of Asks standing between spot price and my Stop Loss buy orders. Now there is almost 2000.

[Stevenrm87]

How do you artificially hold up an exchange rate? If I wanted to sell my BTC I sell and that now means there are less dollars to buy any more BTC.

[MatTheCat]

How do you artificially hold up an exchange rate? If I wanted to sell my BTC I sell and that now means there are less dollars to buy any more BTC.

Right now, there exists an unusually large gap between Bid and Ask walls on Bistamp with unusually steep walls lining up at 815 and 825 respectively. In between them, there is not very much to speak off. However, all a bot (or a person) has to do is buy 0.01 BTC into the Ask wall, and that is the spot price at 825. So along comes Joe Bloggs to buy some Bitcoins and if he doesn't know any better, he thinks the price of a Bitcoin is 825, and puts in an order for 10 BTC @ 825, thus eating 10 BTC into the ask wall and probably taking the BTC from the bot owners account as their bots will ensure their coins are 1 cent cheaper than all the other coins on the wall. Thus the price is manipulated higher than the market wants it to be and the bot operators get to sell their coins at a higher price than everyone else.

But anytime there is any meaningful volume being shifted on Stamp at the moment, it is always at markedly lower prices than the spot price being maintained by algorithmic bot micro-trades. However as soon as an 80 BTC order goes through at $816, the bot orders 0.001 BTC at the ask wall, and the spot price is back up at 825 within a microsecond.

[notme]

How do you artificially hold up an exchange rate? If I wanted to sell my BTC I sell and that now means there are less dollars to buy any more BTC.

Right now, there exists an unusually large gap between Bid and Ask walls on Bistamp with unusually steep walls lining up at 815 and 825 respectively. In between them, there is not very much to speak off. However, all a bot (or a person) has to do is buy 0.01 BTC into the Ask wall, and that is the spot price at 825. So along comes Joe Bloggs to buy some Bitcoins and if he doesn't know any better, he thinks the price of a Bitcoin is 825, and puts in an order for 10 BTC @ 825, thus eating 10 BTC into the ask wall and probably taking the BTC from the bot owners account as their bots will ensure their coins are 1 cent cheaper than all the other coins on the wall. Thus the price is manipulated higher than the market wants it to be and the bot operators get to sell their coins at a higher price than everyone else.

But anytime there is any meaningful volume being shifted on Stamp at the moment, it is always at markedly lower prices than the spot price being maintained by algorithmic bot micro-trades. However as soon as an 80 BTC order goes through at $816, the bot orders 0.001 BTC at the ask wall, and the spot price is back up at 825 within a microsecond.

I might believe a few hundred milliseconds, but within a microsecond?  Surely you are being hyperbolic.

[bassclef]

2 * .2% = .4%

1.2% - (2* .2% ) = 0.8%.

And actually it is a bit better than that.....

.....furthermore, any higher than decimal figures volume of BTC on Stamp is going for $3-5 less than the micro-transaction determined spot price on Stamp....so even more margin still, at least until you get your coins onto BTC-E and learn the hard way about trying to take small margins in bot controlled electronic markets.

Moral of the story is that there is no arbitrage and prices on all USD exchanges are being artificially held up for some reason. I never seen such blatantly mechanical trading across the respectable exchanges as I have witnessed today. Certainly this morning, on Bistamp, there was 1000 BTC of Asks standing between spot price and my Stop Loss buy orders. Now there is almost 2000.

Bots are people too, trying to make a profit. If you are sure of this, use cryptotrader to program one yourself to outwit the "evil" bots.

[MatTheCat]

Bots are people too, trying to make a profit. If you are sure of this, use cryptotrader to program one yourself to outwit the "evil" bots.

So are conmen and thieves.

Bot operators are moulding, mishaping, and manipulating market and bring nothing of value to the market except giving their owners an advantage over everyone else.

[notme]

Bots are people too, trying to make a profit. If you are sure of this, use cryptotrader to program one yourself to outwit the "evil" bots.

So are conmen and thieves.

Bot operators are moulding, mishaping, and manipulating market and bring nothing of value to the market except giving their owners an advantage over everyone else.

If they are indeed misshaping the market, the market will correct them eventually.  Bots have no advantage in altering price.

[MatTheCat]

If they are indeed misshaping the market, the market will correct them eventually.  Bots have no advantage in altering price.

They are operated by whales who have their vast capital stacked on both sides of the Bid/Ask wall, manipulating the unaware into their nets and manipulating panic or bullish sentiment into the market. Without bots, this would be a full time job and would require razor sharp market acumen with still huge margin for slip ups due to limitations of human response times.

With bots, all they need is the capital, the BTC, and the will to rape the market.

If the real market forces are pushing things in a different direction, these guys will be first to know about it and will change their bot algorithmic strategies accordingly.

[skivrmt]

If they are indeed misshaping the market, the market will correct them eventually.  Bots have no advantage in altering price.

They are operated by whales who have their vast capital stacked on both sides of the Bid/Ask wall, manipulating the unaware into their nets and manipulating panic or bullish sentiment into the market. Without bots, this would be a full time job and would require razor sharp market acumen with still huge margin for slip ups due to limitations of human response times.

With bots, all they need is the capital, the BTC, and the will to rape the market.

If the real market forces are pushing things in a different direction, these guys will be first to know about it and will change their bot algorithmic strategies accordingly.

But is that the definition of a free market enterprise?  If it's legal, which it is, and you can create it, lots of people have, then its free markets at its best.  If you (or anyone) can create a bot that does "better" then the current bots on the various exchanges, they would do it and profit from it.  The hard part is not creating the bot itself, it can be done, the "hard" part is having enough capital to support both sides of the walls while turning enough profit without the fees building up.

[MatTheCat]

But is that the definition of a free market enterprise?  If it's legal, which it is, and you can create it, lots of people have, then its free markets at its best.  If you (or anyone) can create a bot that does "better" then the current bots on the various exchanges, they would do it and profit from it.  The hard part is not creating the bot itself, it can be done, the "hard" part is having enough capital to support both sides of the walls while turning enough profit without the fees building up.

....and if you have the capital, then you are free to piss over all other market participants.

Right now for example, the market clearly wants to go down, yet it is being brutally nailed up by bot trading refusing to let it sink to where it wants to sink to across all USD exchanges. Never since I started paying close attention has the spot price manipulation been so blatant and translated on the charts as so mechanical.

In whose benefit is this being done? And incase you are pleased that the price is being artificially propped up in this way, what do you think could happen when/if such artificial supports were to be suddenly removed. Would it be reasonable to consider that we may have a more brutal sell-off than we otherwise might have had. Same thing can happen when the bot trading is keeping spot price down preventing a bull run from taking off and the flood gates are then released resulting in a much more voracious (and volatile) upsurge than would have otherwise occurred.

Either direction, the owners of the bots will be clearly be best positioned to benefit from the consequences of the market disturbances that they cause.

[notme]

Who the fuck are you to say what the market wants?

Besides, isn't the capital involved in the market what makes the market?  So why shouldn't those with the most capital at risk control the pacing?

[MatTheCat]

Who the fuck are you to say what the market wants?

Besides, isn't the capital involved in the market what makes the market?  So why shouldn't those with the most capital control the pacing?

I have been sitting for much of the day, watching this absurd $815 - $825 battle going on, whereby any serious volume of trade brings the price down closer to $815 level, only for a microtransaction of 0.02 btc or something to be triggered immediately afterwards bringing the spot price back up to $825. Even on the minute chart this makes it look as though high volume trades are happening at the Ask wall, but this is bullshit and it can be seen to be bullshit by the near perfect ruler drawn lines that appearing along the top of the candlesticks on the short term 1,3,5 minute charts. If the bots were preventing the market from driving price up, these lines would appear along the bottom of the candlesticks.

In the meantime, the Bid and Ask walls are piling up on Bitstamp. At the start of the day, there was 500 BTC of Asks in between the spot price and my stop loss order. There is now over 2000 BTC and the Ask volume has been steadily piling up and advancing on 'no man's' land, whereas the Bid volume in close range to the spot hasn't really moved at all.

That is who I am to say what the market wants u damn fuckwit.

[Ibian]

Oh, there we go. The old bear whimper again. let me pictorize that...

[notme]

Who the fuck are you to say what the market wants?

Besides, isn't the capital involved in the market what makes the market?  So why shouldn't those with the most capital control the pacing?

I have been sitting for much of the day, watching this absurd $815 - $825 battle going on, whereby any serious volume of trade brings the price down closer to $815 level, only for a microtransaction of 0.02 btc or something to be triggered immediately afterwards bringing the spot price back up to $825. Even on the minute chart this makes it look as though high volume trades are happening at the Ask wall, but this is bullshit and it can be seen to be bullshit by the near perfect ruler drawn lines that appearing along the top of the candlesticks on the short term 1,3,5 minute charts. If the bots were preventing the market from driving price up, these lines would appear along the bottom of the candlesticks.

In the meantime, the Bid and Ask walls are piling up on Bitstamp. At the start of the day, there was 500 BTC of Asks in between the spot price and my stop loss order. There is now over 2000 BTC and the Ask volume has been steadily piling up and advancing on 'no man's' land, whereas the Bid volume in close range to the spot hasn't really moved at all.

That is who I am to say what the market wants u damn fuckwit.

Maybe you should take a walk.  Sitting all day staring at charts isn't good for you.  There's plenty of money to be made here without stressing out about it.

[MatTheCat]

Maybe you should take a walk.  Sitting all day staring at charts isn't good for you.  There's plenty of money to be made here without stressing out about it.

You asked who I was to proclaim that the market wants to trend down. Hopefully my explanation was sufficient enough that even a complete fool could look at the charts and development of the Ask/Bid wall for themselves and comprehend that what I am stating about the market being obstructed is in fact undeniably correct.

The market wants Bitcoin to trend down. This is what would happen if there wasn't a defensive dam preventing it from doing so. Because it is what should happen, I am betting heavily on it playing out. This however is no guarantee that it will happen, as it is not hard to grasp, that if man is capable of putting flood barriers in place to protect his land until the flood waters drain away or the tide goes back out, he is certainly capable of erecting a different type flood barrier to protect the market value of a financial asset, providing of course that is his intentions............perhaps he just wants to save all that flood water up and let it go in one devastating flush?

Whatever the case, there is such a huge amount of pressure building up, that if the market does break to the down side, it could smash right through the $765 floor. For this reason, I have removed my $772 profit taking buy in order. If this is gonna go my way, it is gonna go a lot further my way than that.