Economics of greed

[MatTheCat]

I'm in here for quite a while, both in this forum and this planet so I got the chance to study some persons, including myself. I have studied the behavior, beliefs and needs both in pleasant and unpleasant situations. And I have found out that we're ultimately driven by greed. And that's very difficult to control.

Now, to be short. My issue is that greed wasn't in the bitcoin ecosystem from the begging. No. First people here, the early adopters (including CPU miners), we're regular people, most of them with no significant wealth. They, we, were here because wanted and needed a change, needed freedom. At those times people would trade 10,000 BTC for a pizza and be happy. But now, things have changed, most early adopters are now rich and they are rich even if they have been scammed for some, lost some while speculating or spent some. They are rich because this thing, greed, came into this system and new people wanted also to be part of this new thing. This made price to go up, and while it goes up, the very early and early users are now filthy rich.

But things don't stop here... The first ones or the ones that had lots of fiat and were able to buy thousands, are now the most richest 500 owners, controlling about 35% of all bitcoins. Let's leave the ones that bought many coins just recently, they were already rich. Let's focus on the first ones, the ones that "traded" in the single digits, the early adopters and miners. Most of them have been corrupted in such way they forgot that they found about bitcoin because of passion and desire for better and not for money, they forgot that they were poor (or at least not wealthy) when they started. And the problem with that, is that we have lost good men in favor of speculative business and fade businesses that bring nothing in the world, but only take.

And now, new people, driven out of greed, hope prices of 10,000 dollars this year, because they own a few coins and thus would have more dollars. But, think of the few-tens-of-thousands owners. They'll be even richer but without any direction, because most of their wealth is won not worked. They now started businesses (exchanges, precious metals, shops) to gather more wealth. Some of them got into mind-twisting schemes, taking advantage from other people, manipulating markets and doing such maneuvers.

I'm not being philosophical about the taste of the bread you worked in the mine for but I'm trying to point out that with great power, really comes great responsibility. And not the responsibility of feeding children of Africa but the responsibility of not feeding your ego.

In the end, my opinion is that wealth distribution in this ecosystem is too concentrated in a few hands and needs more dispersion before we move to higher levels. We need a solid economy, based on goods and services and not on speculation. Speculation is pure greed and brings nothing.

Very well said! The first post beneath this made me groan and I lost the will to read any further into this thread.

Bitcoin is a pyramid shaped pile of rats. When no new rats are piling into the pyramid, they are all trying to devour each other to get or keep themselves as high up the pile as possible. I hate Bitcoin, I hate watching blatant manipulation play out in the market (unless it makes me win) and I hate the mode of thought and behaviour that it demands of me as I trade it in order to sometimes turn profits that I would never get for actually working or being otherwise productive. It might be fair to suggest that the ethos of Bitcoin reflects that of the community that has adopted it, but the fact that 'Satoshi' holds 12% of all Bitcoins in existence tells you all you need to know about the Bitcoin ethos right from the start.

Bitcoin is the crypto-spawn of Satan.

[thaaanos]

Bitcoin's creator(s) still nowhere to be find, so we don't really know who designed it.

It doesn't matter. The source-code is all that matters, and it's open for everyone to view. What in it is it you dislike?

That argument is shit.

[Jungian]

Did I touch a nerve here?

Yes, attacking virtue and degrading it should touch everyones nerves, so I sure hit my spot.

The word "just" as in "no more than". Sure, I've reason to believe you, greedy cookie-monster, reduce mankind to "just" production units. It is completely on your own account that you assign the word "just" to "horrible" and "boring".

This is not a new converstation with statists, they always some up with the same question - and always imply the same thing. That people who think that productivity is something good actually want humans to be robotesque units in a technologial dystopi. If that is not what you meant - you'd be the first.

Moreover you confuse the meaning of the word "production" with something beautiful as "creation".

Nope. All creation requires productivity.

On top of that, you seem very afraid of people getting something for free, or in exchange for sharing insightful thoughts and intentions for a change to create a better world.

No, I'm just highly unimpressed by people who use cheap words that sound great but create horrible situations. Intentions are as useful as dirt, only results matter.
Would you go to a doctor that worn the most beatiful dresses and talked of creating a glourious utopia and yet performed surgery with a wooden spoon? Sure, the doctor probably had good intentions, but the patient died.

Let me ask you a very simple question. What's the value of your health? Any idea what a physician produce? Now, eat your cookies, and stay fit.

It's highy valuable. (Good) Physicians produce good health. Cookies taste good and I stay fit thank you very much.

[Jungian]

Bitcoin's creator(s) still nowhere to be find, so we don't really know who designed it.

It doesn't matter. The source-code is all that matters, and it's open for everyone to view. What in it is it you dislike?

That argument is shit.

How is that argument shit?

[knightcoin]

Bitcoin's creator(s) still nowhere to be find, so we don't really know who designed it.

It doesn't matter. The source-code is all that matters, and it's open for everyone to view. What in it is it you dislike?

That argument is shit.

How is that argument shit?

where does shit come from ?

[MatTheCat]

Bitcoin's creator(s) still nowhere to be find, so we don't really know who designed it.

It doesn't matter. The source-code is all that matters, and it's open for everyone to view. What in it is it you dislike?

That argument is shit.

How is that argument shit?

where does shit come from ?

From an arsehole?

[knightcoin]

Bitcoin's creator(s) still nowhere to be find, so we don't really know who designed it.

It doesn't matter. The source-code is all that matters, and it's open for everyone to view. What in it is it you dislike?

That argument is shit.

How is that argument shit?

where does shit come from ?

From an arsehole?

do u know that some buddhists believe that the intestine is our second brain ... and indeed ( non holistic view) after the brain is the 2nd place holds much neurons ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_system )
 

[thaaanos]

Bitcoin's creator(s) still nowhere to be find, so we don't really know who designed it.

It doesn't matter. The source-code is all that matters, and it's open for everyone to view. What in it is it you dislike?

That argument is shit.

How is that argument shit?

where does shit come from ?

From an arsehole?

do u know that some buddhists believe that the intestine is our second brain ... and indeed ( non holistic view) after the brain is the 2nd place holds much neurons ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_system )
 

Sorry did not mean no disrespect to enteric nervous system...
but seeing is not understanding

[Erdogan]

Some brilliant person said "no one is free until we are all free" I believe that to my core.

Yes - someone also said  "What you do unto the least of my brethren, you do also unto me"

Same bloke also said " Its easier for a camel to climb through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven"

He didn't say anything about the benefits to society of greed - or the individuals regard of their own self interest (as far as I am aware) being some kind of moral prerequisite to entry to the Kingdom of God.

In fact, while we are on the subject - when Jesus Christ refused to sell out to Pilate and so gave himself up to the inevitability of his own death - was he acting with regard to his own self interest ?

  Was Jesus Christ greedy ?

Eye of the needle, somewhere in Jerusalem:

[practicaldreamer]

So does this mean that its actually quite easy for a camel to get through the "eye of the needle" then ?

Because if it does, what was JC talking about ? - I mean, if its actually easy for a camel to climb through the eye of a needle (as pictured above) then his whole statement doesn't make much sense does it ?

     Or did he mean that its pretty easy for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven ? (but even then, his whole sentence/utterence/statement wouldn't have been very well structured in order to have conveyed that meaning  ).

 That would certainly not seem to be his meaning, given the context from which the statement was taken - and given also JC's views on material posessions being counterproductive to achieving spiritual enlightenment, which he emphatically and unequivocally makes very clear throughout the gospels.

    No - if you ask me he's saying that a rich man has about as much chance of entering the Kingdom of Heaven as I have of bedding Juliette Binoche. Simple as that  .

   However, I'm not a theologian or Biblical scholar, so I could be wrong here.

[Erdogan]

So does this mean that its actually quite easy for a camel to get through the "eye of the needle" then ?

Because if it does, what was JC talking about ? - I mean, if its actually easy for a camel to climb through the eye of a needle (as pictured above) then his whole statement doesn't make much sense does it ?

     Or did he mean that its pretty easy for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven ? (but even then, his whole sentence/utterence/statement wouldn't have been very well structured in order to have conveyed that meaning  ).

 That would certainly not seem to be his meaning, given the context from which the statement was taken - and given also JC's views on material posessions being counterproductive to achieving spiritual enlightenment, which he emphatically and unequivocally makes very clear throughout the gospels.

    No - if you ask me he's saying that a rich man has about as much chance of entering the Kingdom of Heaven as I have of bedding Juliette Binoche. Simple as that  .

   However, I'm not a theologian or Biblical scholar, so I could be wrong here.

Difficult, but not impossible. I guess these small gates were created to make it possible for the daily life to go on, but they still protect against hundreds of alien soldiers to enter.

I don't know the implications for bitcoin.

[thaaanos]

So does this mean that its actually quite easy for a camel to get through the "eye of the needle" then ?

Because if it does, what was JC talking about ? - I mean, if its actually easy for a camel to climb through the eye of a needle (as pictured above) then his whole statement doesn't make much sense does it ?

     Or did he mean that its pretty easy for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven ? (but even then, his whole sentence/utterence/statement wouldn't have been very well structured in order to have conveyed that meaning  ).

 That would certainly not seem to be his meaning, given the context from which the statement was taken - and given also JC's views on material posessions being counterproductive to achieving spiritual enlightenment, which he emphatically and unequivocally makes very clear throughout the gospels.

    No - if you ask me he's saying that a rich man has about as much chance of entering the Kingdom of Heaven as I have of bedding Juliette Binoche. Simple as that  .

   However, I'm not a theologian or Biblical scholar, so I could be wrong here.

Difficult, but not impossible. I guess these small gates were created to make it possible for the daily life to go on, but they still protect against hundreds of alien soldiers to enter.

I don't know the implications for bitcoin.

It could be a guard, denying passage to camels. Like no pets allowed within

[Erdogan]

So does this mean that its actually quite easy for a camel to get through the "eye of the needle" then ?

Because if it does, what was JC talking about ? - I mean, if its actually easy for a camel to climb through the eye of a needle (as pictured above) then his whole statement doesn't make much sense does it ?

     Or did he mean that its pretty easy for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven ? (but even then, his whole sentence/utterence/statement wouldn't have been very well structured in order to have conveyed that meaning  ).

 That would certainly not seem to be his meaning, given the context from which the statement was taken - and given also JC's views on material posessions being counterproductive to achieving spiritual enlightenment, which he emphatically and unequivocally makes very clear throughout the gospels.

    No - if you ask me he's saying that a rich man has about as much chance of entering the Kingdom of Heaven as I have of bedding Juliette Binoche. Simple as that  .

   However, I'm not a theologian or Biblical scholar, so I could be wrong here.

Difficult, but not impossible. I guess these small gates were created to make it possible for the daily life to go on, but they still protect against hundreds of alien soldiers to enter.

I don't know the implications for bitcoin.

It could be a guard, denying passage to camels. Like no pets allowed within

It would be difficult to get a lamborghini in, but not impossible. (sideways, with a sufficiently powerful winch).

[aminorex]

The gate known as the eye of the needle is in a wall which was built during the crusades, so Jesus could not have been referring to it at the time, unless you assume that he wanted us to infer from his knowledge of the future that he was in fact omniscient, at least at will.  Okay, my scenario analysis is getting out of hand here.  Whatevs.

I was thinking of the overstock.com reports, while listening to Nixon in China, and I could have sworn I heard him singing:

"the geeks, the geeks, the geeks begin to buy the sheets"

[travel-trousers]

Great post OP, I don't think this is what Satoshi wanted...

[wobber]

Erdogan, great image with that entrance, eye of the needle.

Makes you think how you really need to learn Greek and Hebrew if you want to study Bible. As well as some history. Too many words get interpreted. I knew that phrase for a long time and made me thinking since I first read it.

The fact is, that sentence with the rich guy is showing something impossible: for a camel to go through the eye of a (sewing) needle.

Logically, that's not only not restrictive but impossible. And by saying that rich people are denied to enter His Kingdom, Jesus would contradict himself with all the preaches saying everybody can be saved.

So, we could go with something more like

It would be easier for a/the (alone?) camel to enter the eye of the needle (gate) than the rich to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

I might be wrong but we also need to see if the original word for camel has the same form for plural, we need to check history to see if camels were allowed through those entrances and many things. Lot's of work.

[Xav]

Did I touch a nerve here?

Yes, attacking virtue and degrading it should touch everyones nerves, so I sure hit my spot.

Sorry to hear that, but I was just using the word "just". Grow up, or even better, gain some mental and spiritual fitness.

The word "just" as in "no more than". Sure, I've reason to believe you, greedy cookie-monster, reduce mankind to "just" production units. It is completely on your own account that you assign the word "just" to "horrible" and "boring".

This is not a new converstation with statists, they always some up with the same question - and always imply the same thing. That people who think that productivity is something good actually want humans to be robotesque units in a technologial dystopi. If that is not what you meant - you'd be the first.

My thoughts are well expressed by my own words. Your words make them look silly, because you did not understand.

Moreover you confuse the meaning of the word "production" with something beautiful as "creation".

Nope. All creation requires productivity.

Wrong. It's your misinterpretation about the essence of cause and effect. Creativity comes before production. Always. It's a mental process. Take for instance Bitcoin, first there is design, and then there will be coding and at the far end there is implementation and ... producing (aka mining).

On top of that, you seem very afraid of people getting something for free, or in exchange for sharing insightful thoughts and intentions for a change to create a better world.

No, I'm just highly unimpressed by people who use cheap words that sound great but create horrible situations. Intentions are as useful as dirt, only results matter. Would you go to a doctor that worn the most beatiful dresses and talked of creating a glourious utopia and yet performed surgery with a wooden spoon? Sure, the doctor probably had good intentions, but the patient died.

So far, I do not have the impression your words produce any good nor admiration. You're trying to be a smart alec and sprout a lot of mishmash from your doctrine "greed is good."

Let me ask you a very simple question. What's the value of your health? Any idea what a physician produce? Now, eat your cookies, and stay fit.

It's highy valuable. (Good) Physicians produce good health. Cookies taste good and I stay fit thank you very much.

You seem to stretch the meaning of "production" to an extreme extent, which gives reason to describe the contribution by the Dalai Lama as the production of mental and spiritual health, and ... it costs (you) nothing and benefits all.

[GhostGum]

Yes the whole cryptocoin trading community really is a chilling example of what happens when the rewards of greed become the main social drive of a (what i'd think are) reasonably intellectual community of people. How easily 'their' ethics and morality just degenerate  into into the rotton host of cuorruption, breeding parasites viciously feeding upon anything they car, and that is the norm.
I see another complete scam, and watch 'them' swarm to join, watch 'them' actualy help build the trap (leeching of anything that comes near, including each other if 'they' can, luring in any victims 'they' can, seeming not even considering the victims, only thinking of 'thier' own gain.  Sometimes 'they' will think about how disguisting that  realy is, but 'they' are not like that themself, 'they' just observe it happening, and try to profit off of them, not hurting anyone themself, just haing fun trying to profit off it.

'They' is 'Me'.
'They' is 'You'.
'They' is 'We'




Sometimes i'd like to just walk the away and meditate on the namecoin sourcecode (and only the code) see if i can contribute to freeedom from repression and control. Working towards a goal which benefits society.



 

[Erdogan]

You have caught the great society delusion.

[Jungian]

My thoughts are well expressed by my own words. Your words make them look silly, because you did not understand.

They look silly all by themselves.

Wrong. It's your misinterpretation about the essence of cause and effect. Creativity comes before production. Always. It's a mental process. Take for instance Bitcoin, first there is design, and then there will be coding and at the far end there is implementation and ... producing (aka mining).

Thinking is not creation. Creation is doing. There might aswell been a hundred hypothetical Satoshis before him, but only one who created something.

So far, I do not have the impression your words produce any good nor admiration. You're trying to be a smart alec and sprout a lot of mishmash from your doctrine "greed is good."

Grow up and gain some mental fitness.

You seem to stretch the meaning of "production" to an extreme extent, which gives reason to describe the contribution by the Dalai Lama as the production of mental and spiritual health, and ... it costs (you) nothing and benefits all.

Yes, some people think these tibetan popes reek of wisdom and insight, but I want to look at the end results. Sure, a few western intellectuals might feel good about themselves for meditating and feeling sorry for the poor, whilst we see the nation they ruled over for centuries still left in poverty and corruption.
Where is his actions for the free market? Where does he speak about taxation? Against the United Nations? Against statism?