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Author Topic: Economics of greed  (Read 5595 times)
wobber
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January 22, 2014, 11:24:57 AM
 #1

I'm in here for quite a while, both in this forum and this planet so I got the chance to study some persons, including myself. I have studied the behavior, beliefs and needs both in pleasant and unpleasant situations. And I have found out that we're ultimately driven by greed. And that's very difficult to control.

Now, to be short. My issue is that greed wasn't in the bitcoin ecosystem from the begging. No. First people here, the early adopters (including CPU miners), we're regular people, most of them with no significant wealth. They, we, were here because wanted and needed a change, needed freedom. At those times people would trade 10,000 BTC for a pizza and be happy. But now, things have changed, most early adopters are now rich and they are rich even if they have been scammed for some, lost some while speculating or spent some. They are rich because this thing, greed, came into this system and new people wanted also to be part of this new thing. This made price to go up, and while it goes up, the very early and early users are now filthy rich.

But things don't stop here... The first ones or the ones that had lots of fiat and were able to buy thousands, are now the most richest 500 owners, controlling about 35% of all bitcoins. Let's leave the ones that bought many coins just recently, they were already rich. Let's focus on the first ones, the ones that "traded" in the single digits, the early adopters and miners. Most of them have been corrupted in such way they forgot that they found about bitcoin because of passion and desire for better and not for money, they forgot that they were poor (or at least not wealthy) when they started. And the problem with that, is that we have lost good men in favor of speculative business and fade businesses that bring nothing in the world, but only take.

And now, new people, driven out of greed, hope prices of 10,000 dollars this year, because they own a few coins and thus would have more dollars. But, think of the few-tens-of-thousands owners. They'll be even richer but without any direction, because most of their wealth is won not worked. They now started businesses (exchanges, precious metals, shops) to gather more wealth. Some of them got into mind-twisting schemes, taking advantage from other people, manipulating markets and doing such maneuvers.

I'm not being philosophical about the taste of the bread you worked in the mine for but I'm trying to point out that with great power, really comes great responsibility. And not the responsibility of feeding children of Africa but the responsibility of not feeding your ego.

In the end, my opinion is that wealth distribution in this ecosystem is too concentrated in a few hands and needs more dispersion before we move to higher levels. We need a solid economy, based on goods and services and not on speculation. Speculation is pure greed and brings nothing.

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January 22, 2014, 11:59:51 AM
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I'm in here for quite a while, both in this forum and this planet so I got the chance to study some persons, including myself. I have studied the behavior, beliefs and needs both in pleasant and unpleasant situations. And I have found out that we're ultimately driven by greed. And that's very difficult to control.

Why would you want to control it? Greed is the simple emotion of wanting more than you have. It's something good.

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Now, to be short. My issue is that greed wasn't in the bitcoin ecosystem from the begging.

Yes it was. As the ecosystem was made by humans.

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No. First people here, the early adopters (including CPU miners), we're regular people, most of them with no significant wealth.


That's still the case.

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They, we, were here because wanted and needed a change, needed freedom.

Still need and want that

Quote
At those times people would trade 10,000 BTC for a pizza and be happy.

People still trade the economic equivalent of what used to be the value of 10k BTC for a pizza. In fact, they to that a hundreds and hundreds of time more than they used to, with many new shops accepting bitcoins.

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But now, things have changed, most early adopters are now rich and they are rich even if they have been scammed for some, lost some while speculating or spent some.

Yes, like with all good things, people who get in early get bigger increase of thier wealth.

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They are rich because this thing, greed, came into this system and new people wanted also to be part of this new thing. This made price to go up, and while it goes up, the very early and early users are now filthy rich.

Yes, people want to be part of a good thing. That increases the value of that thing. It's a GOOD thing!

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But things don't stop here... The first ones or the ones that had lots of fiat and were able to buy thousands, are now the most richest 500 owners, controlling about 35% of all bitcoins.

Good for them! They took a big risk and deserve it

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Let's leave the ones that bought many coins just recently, they were already rich.

Nope. Most of them aren't and weren't rich.

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Let's focus on the first ones, the ones that "traded" in the single digits, the early adopters and miners. Most of them have been corrupted in such way they forgot that they found about bitcoin because of passion and desire for better and not for money, they forgot that they were poor (or at least not wealthy) when they started. And the problem with that, is that we have lost good men in favor of speculative business and fade businesses that bring nothing in the world, but only take.

No we haven't. I see nothing but people who wake up to the economic reality and want to opt out of fiat.

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And now, new people, driven out of greed, hope prices of 10,000 dollars this year, because they own a few coins and thus would have more dollars. But, think of the few-tens-of-thousands owners. They'll be even richer but without any direction, because most of their wealth is won not worked. They now started businesses (exchanges, precious metals, shops) to gather more wealth. Some of them got into mind-twisting schemes, taking advantage from other people, manipulating markets and doing such maneuvers.

Of course you hope for more of a good thing. You don't want the nodes of the internet to incrase? Or the users on your social media? That's what creates value for EVERYONE in the network. Will you make this thread again in 5 years and say "Oh, back then people spent 0.01BTC" on a pizza and were happy with that.

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I'm not being philosophical about the taste of the bread you worked in the mine for but I'm trying to point out that with great power, really comes great responsibility. And not the responsibility of feeding children of Africa but the responsibility of not feeding your ego.

No, no one was born here with the responsibility to feed African children. They are born free and thus are free to spend their life in a the way the find most valuable.

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In the end, my opinion is that wealth distribution in this ecosystem is too concentrated in a few hands and needs more dispersion before we move to higher levels. We need a solid economy, based on goods and services and not on speculation.

That's what we get the more people who use it

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Speculation is pure greed and brings nothing.

It brings value to the market.

I think Monero (XMR) is very interesting.
https://moneroeconomy.com/faq/why-monero-matters
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January 22, 2014, 12:06:11 PM
 #3

I'm sure many others would share your sentiments. The early adopters have been handsomely rewarded for speculating in a technology with very uncertain outcomes, I think it's fair they are rewarded...it's pretty much the basis of any free market economy. I know many Bitcoin critics secretly resent these early adopters and many form opinions before taking the time to understand Bitcoin and the utility it can provide beyond a speculative commodity. Personally I don't care! I can see the unbelievable potential in Bitcoin not as a commodity but as a means of exchanging value. You're right Bitcoin needs to be an economy in itself, but we're seeing this on a daily basis with businesses accepting Bitcoin all over the world! It's happening, and it's happening fast!!
wobber
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January 22, 2014, 12:11:36 PM
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All this mass hysteria could lead to so many issues, including a forced adoption of bitcoin as global currency and acceleration towards a global goverment. What was designed for freedom can be changed for enslavement.

It could be the case in a few years that nobody could buy or sell without bitcoin.


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January 22, 2014, 12:18:34 PM
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I'm sure many others would share your sentiments. The early adopters have been handsomely rewarded for speculating in a technology with very uncertain outcomes, I think it's fair they are rewarded...it's pretty much the basis of any free market economy. I know many Bitcoin critics secretly resent these early adopters and many form opinions before taking the time to understand Bitcoin and the utility it can provide beyond a speculative commodity. Personally I don't care! I can see the unbelievable potential in Bitcoin not as a commodity but as a means of exchanging value. You're right Bitcoin needs to be an economy in itself, but we're seeing this on a daily basis with businesses accepting Bitcoin all over the world! It's happening, and it's happening fast!!

Of course they resent them. It's the same people who resent all rich people because they are envious. It's good to be resented by those people.


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All this mass hysteria could lead to so many issues, including a forced adoption of bitcoin as global currency and acceleration towards a global goverment. What was designed for freedom can be changed for enslavement.

It could be the case in a few years that nobody could buy or sell without bitcoin.

Yeah, im sure they would force global goverment by brining extreme amounts of value to a free market they cannot control. What will be their first step? World war three by disbanding all armies?

I think Monero (XMR) is very interesting.
https://moneroeconomy.com/faq/why-monero-matters
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January 22, 2014, 12:42:10 PM
 #6

Obviously a few early adopters are technically rich,  but I wouldn't say I resented any of them.  Satoshi has apparently never touched any of those coins which is pretty puzzling to me and either means he is already very rich, very principled or there is another game in town.  Laszlo - the pizza guy, sold all his remaining coins for $1 which is actually a bit sad to me, I hoped he would be visiting Domino's in a Ferrari these days, but he is positive about it and then there is Hal Finney who fate rewarded with both bitcoins and ALS. He still posts occasionally and keeps his bitcoins in the bank for his children.  Other early adopters probably have similar stories, so live and let live.
wobber
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January 22, 2014, 12:47:46 PM
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Yeah, im sure they would force global goverment by brining extreme amounts of value to a free market they cannot control. What will be their first step? World war three by disbanding all armies?

No. A global goverment won't be pushed by war but by peace. They don't need to control the free market, they need to make you want use bitcoin. It's like the wolf disguised as sheep. You think you are free, but you aren't.

Bitcoin's creator(s) still nowhere to be find, so we don't really know who designed it.

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Jungian
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January 22, 2014, 12:50:42 PM
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Yeah, im sure they would force global goverment by brining extreme amounts of value to a free market they cannot control. What will be their first step? World war three by disbanding all armies?

No. A global goverment won't be pushed by war but by peace. They don't need to control the free market, they need to make you want use bitcoin. It's like the wolf disguised as sheep. You think you are free, but you aren't.

Bitcoin's creator(s) still nowhere to be find, so we don't really know who designed it.

It doesn't matter. The source-code is all that matters, and it's open for everyone to view. What in it is it you dislike?

So, they will force me to use a non forceful, free market currency. Not that would be able to do that, but it's still way better than being forced to use fiat.

So, free market money, world peace. What was the downside compared to now?

I think Monero (XMR) is very interesting.
https://moneroeconomy.com/faq/why-monero-matters
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January 22, 2014, 01:00:33 PM
 #9

Interesting perspective by the OP, but I have to clarify something: it's not only greed, but also aversion and delusion.
If you would only rely on greed, you can't explain all the market movements.

As for bitcoin being adopted on a global scale by a global government, IMO that's not going to happen.
Such a government might issue it's own cryptocurrency that it would control. Currently bitcoin is tolerated by democratic governments
and on the road to being banned by totalitarian ones. Problem is, even democratic governments can be corrupt, or just under the influence
of large corporations. Once bitcoin will grow too big, those corporations could feel threatened and lobby against bitcoin.

Sometimes, if it looks too bullish, it's actually bearish
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January 22, 2014, 11:49:18 PM
 #10

I am happy myself to see more and more people get rich and out of poverty. I see Bitcoin as a way to bring emancipation and wealth to many unfortunate people that would otherwise not have the chance to get anywhere in this economic system. Tjose that lost their blue and white collar jobs, young unemployed, single and married mothers, pensioners..You name it many will benefit from Bitcoin and a little greed is healthy and motivating. Of course becoming corrupted by it and hurting others that is a different story but if getting some bitcoin and hoarding it for your kids is considered greedy when otherwise you may never have a chance to set your kids up or live out a pension then I would feel deeply sad. Yes I love the freedom element of it best of all but we have to be realistic here that the speculation aspect is going to bring many mainstream people in and we want that. Smiley
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January 23, 2014, 12:20:34 AM
 #11

Reminds me .. that old article about psychology of greed ( I do not complete agree with that vision since the pleasure/reward area can be connected to almost all human types of behaviors ( altruism included )) ...  

Are human beings “naturally” greedy? Is greed so much a part of human biology that it will always shape human social life?
This age-old question came up once again in an article circulated by Bloom berg News, the big business news service. (bloomberg.com)
The article highlights the work of Stanford University psychology professor Brian Knutson who has used modern brain-imaging technology to try to associate regions of the brain with specific behaviors. In experiments by Knutson and colleagues, volunteers pretend to buy and sell stocks while the imaging machine called a functional MRI (FMRI) records the brain areas activated.
The findings suggest a connection bet ween activity in “pleasure center” areas of the brain and the action of making a profitable stock sale and even risk-taking behavior in anticipation or hope of gain, such as gambling. (Brain areas considered pleasure centers have been linked to activities such as sexual orgasm and cocaine use.)
In the experiments, losses and fear of loss activated a different area of the brain— one that has been associated with painful experiences.
The researchers believe their findings may help explain why investors, like gamblers, often take irrational risks in the same way that people will often carry out what they know is risky and even dangerous behavior for a pleasurable high from sex or drugs.
The Bloomberg business editor commented: “At a neurological level, our species’ desire for money may resemble our desire for sex…” and “our brains lust after money, just like they crave sex.”
In this interpretation, capitalist greed is biological—-“hard-wired” by our brains neural circuits. But this view is just a high-tech version of the very old, and mistaken, notion that greed is part of “human nature.”



Full article
http://www.workers.org/2006/us/greedy-0223/

http://www.introversion.co.uk/
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January 23, 2014, 12:52:02 PM
 #12

Yes, OP nails it. There is some mystique kind of contradiction going on in the Bitcoin environment. Its technology is based upon something called a P2P-network. Now, take your time and read this Peer to Peer Network once again. Connection is the keyword here, and decentralization. There is no control centered in one place. The strength comes from the connections, just like the Internet. Does it really require a huge leap for mankind to understand that society is based on a similar underlying structure; we, human beings, form a network - we are connected in many ways.
The biggest lie ever spread is "Greed is good.", because it denies this fundamental innate connection, it denies compassion. Frans de Waal studies the behavior of primates and it stands to reason that primates expose "our" true nature; Moral behavior in animals.

Anyway, this whole decentralized idea of Bitcoin heads toward its own contradiction, because a very limited group of people (ergo, centralized) already have the power (coins) to regulate this new currency. Are these people our new bankers and Feds? Are they any better? Do they posses more of these o so needed properties like, empathy, compassion, care, affection, and so on ...?
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January 23, 2014, 02:13:41 PM
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The biggest lie ever spread is "Greed is good.", because it denies this fundamental innate connection, it denies compassion.

I would like to shake your hand on the strength of that comment - couldn't agree more.

Anyway, this whole decentralized idea of Bitcoin heads toward its own contradiction, because a very limited group of people (ergo, centralized) already have the power (coins) to regulate this new currency. Are these people our new bankers and Feds? Are they any better? Do they posses more of these o so needed properties like, empathy, compassion, care, affection, and so on ...?

   Surely everyone has their price though - I mean, over time would not these large holders of BTC slowly have their holdings eroded one way or another.
    There's an old Chinese saying - wealth carries forward no further than three generations.
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January 23, 2014, 03:09:00 PM
 #14

Don't knock the people who, in their desire for personal gain start businesses and hire people like you.  They run the risks and take the chances.

What many people want to do is end this desire for personal gain. Stop rewarding hard work, insight, and innovation. Good.  Excellent.  The farmers stop farming, the workers leave the oil fields (who, after all, are working for personal gain) ..... and you starve.

No go to sleep and dream up something better.  Nobody owes anyone else a living.

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January 23, 2014, 03:16:53 PM
 #15

Keep in mind that the "rich" people tend to be more visible than the "not rich" ones. I went through the dot.com thing in the late 80's, and the late 90's. A few of my friends are "rich", but most are *not* even though they put in every bit as much time and effort.

One of the rich ones is a complete moron, BLAST (Butt like a steel trap). However he did something I would not do; he quit his job, lived in his car, and answered the fucking telephone at one of the first ISP's. Yes, that is worth millions oddly enough because his chances of success at the time were flat-assed zero.

Me? I'm not rich, but I'm comfortable. What makes someone rich, or comfortable, or whatnot is a matter of debate and personal opinion. But keep in mind that the nature of something like bitcoin as a zero-sum game means that for someone to be filthy rich, there are plenty of early adopters who have nothing. The 10,000 btc pizza sounds like a big loss, but if it didn't happen then maybe bitcoin would never have made a newspaper and it would all be worthless. In which case the 10k pizza was the greatest investment of all time.

Go ahead and build something new. But way more than 99% of those new things fail, so do it for something other than money. Like for fun.

C
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January 23, 2014, 04:14:14 PM
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Yes, OP nails it. There is some mystique kind of contradiction going on in the Bitcoin environment. Its technology is based upon something called a P2P-network. Now, take your time and read this Peer to Peer Network once again. Connection is the keyword here, and decentralization.

So what? Doesn't change anything about greed or not. People who benefit from P2P will use it. That is the very definition of greed.
They use something to get MORE out of it. They don't use it because they get LESS out of it.


Quote
The strength comes from the connections, just like the Internet.

Still greed.


Quote
Does it really require a huge leap for mankind to understand that society is based on a similar underlying structure; we, human beings, form a network - we are connected in many ways.

Yes, that's greed. Wanting something from humans.


Quote
The biggest lie ever spread is "Greed is good.", because it denies this fundamental innate connection, it denies compassion.

Doesn't change anything. If what you value is compassion, then you are greedy for compassion.

Quote
Frans de Waal studies the behavior of primates and it stands to reason that primates expose "our" true nature; Moral behavior in animals.

Exactly. When there is a profit motive for primates to be compassionate they will be. P2P networks give incentive to be moral and thus people express more "compassion" in them. So, greed here again.

Quote
Anyway, this whole decentralized idea of Bitcoin heads toward its own contradiction, because a very limited group of people (ergo, centralized) already have the power (coins) to regulate this new currency. Are these people our new bankers and Feds? Are they any better? Do they posses more of these o so needed properties like, empathy, compassion, care, affection, and so on ...?

If you give them incentive to express these emotions they will.

I think Monero (XMR) is very interesting.
https://moneroeconomy.com/faq/why-monero-matters
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January 23, 2014, 07:15:07 PM
 #17

Becoming financially stable/wealthy is not always greedy and not only wealthy people have greedy habits. 
I feel as though bitcoin has the potential to empower more people and I want to be part of that, the technology is interesting, the social psychology of it. The way money "works" right now is not working. This is history in the making, I feel lucky to get to participate.
Some people who end up with wealth through bitcoin may not be financial savvy. They could end up with nothing or worse; in a hole because they knew everything about how bitcoin worked but not enough about money.

Certain components of greed have served us well, such as wanting more...more innovation, more information, more?
And...Yes I want more bitcoin. Greedy is not a word my friends would associate with me.

There 'used' to be more truth in forums than anywhere else.  Twitter:  @cryptobitchicks  Spock: "I am expressing multiple attitudes simultaneously. To which are you referring?"
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January 23, 2014, 07:41:20 PM
 #18

Becoming financially stable/wealthy is not always greedy and not only wealthy people have greedy habits.

Having a few million dollars (2-5), a nice home, garden and all is more than one can want. The issue is, what do you do with the excess? How do you use it?

Quote
Certain components of greed have served us well, such as wanting more...more innovation, more information, more?
And...Yes I want more bitcoin. Greedy is not a word my friends would associate with me.


That's the good aspect of greed. One could also be greedy to make more money so to have more leverage / power for his projects. If you are implicated in medical research, you'd need shitload of money to continue so you have to want more.

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January 23, 2014, 07:44:33 PM
 #19

Just thinking now a litebit about greedy algorithm to solve pathway problems such as networking routing, traffic and congestion, etc and how it could be applied to algorithm trading ... Roll Eyes

here's a video about Prim's algorithm ( it is a greedy algorithm that finds a minimum spanning tree )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxXScDY2Q0U




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January 23, 2014, 08:27:55 PM
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Yes, OP nails it. There is some mystique kind of contradiction going on in the Bitcoin environment. Its technology is based upon something called a P2P-network. Now, take your time and read this Peer to Peer Network once again. Connection is the keyword here, and decentralization.

So what? Doesn't change anything about greed or not. People who benefit from P2P will use it. That is the very definition of greed.
They use something to get MORE out of it. They don't use it because they get LESS out of it.


Quote
The strength comes from the connections, just like the Internet.

Still greed.


Quote
Does it really require a huge leap for mankind to understand that society is based on a similar underlying structure; we, human beings, form a network - we are connected in many ways.

Yes, that's greed. Wanting something from humans.


Quote
The biggest lie ever spread is "Greed is good.", because it denies this fundamental innate connection, it denies compassion.

Doesn't change anything. If what you value is compassion, then you are greedy for compassion.

Quote
Frans de Waal studies the behavior of primates and it stands to reason that primates expose "our" true nature; Moral behavior in animals.

Exactly. When there is a profit motive for primates to be compassionate they will be. P2P networks give incentive to be moral and thus people express more "compassion" in them. So, greed here again.

Quote
Anyway, this whole decentralized idea of Bitcoin heads toward its own contradiction, because a very limited group of people (ergo, centralized) already have the power (coins) to regulate this new currency. Are these people our new bankers and Feds? Are they any better? Do they posses more of these o so needed properties like, empathy, compassion, care, affection, and so on ...?

If you give them incentive to express these emotions they will.

I went for a piss half an hour back - do you know what motivated me ? Greed  Grin

A couple of years back, local to me, not one, but two men died trying to save a girl that had fallen through the ice (they were unrelated to the girl - one of the men was a fireman and so fully aware of the risk). But do you know what really motivated these men - not altruism or compassion - it was the regard for their own self interest. It was greed   Wink

According to Chomsky our language acquisition is facilitated by our "universal grammar" - but it only flourishes by virtue of the social nature of language and in its practical application. But guess what - we only communicate through our innate greed  Huh

I'm alright Jack keep your hands off my stash - greed.
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