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Author Topic: Gold And Silver Maple Leaf Coins To Sell For Bitcoins [CLOSED]  (Read 7888 times)
babkjl
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March 08, 2011, 06:17:18 AM
 #1

I've been a small dealer in gold and silver Maple Leaf coins for 3 years.  I normally exchange face to face to reduce risk, but my local client pool is small.  Ebay is no good because of potential chargebacks.  The payment must be non-repudiable.  Other methods of electronic payments have fees that are too high for the low margins of bullion coins.  I carefully examined the underlying math of Bitcoins and have found it vastly superior to paper fiat currency.  I'm willing to make a market exchanging Bitcoins for gold and silver subject to the following conditions that are necessary to reduce my risk:
  • Bitcoins must be received in my wallet before I ship out the coins.
  • Shipping charges are my cost to Canada Post. Registered Mail proving I sent them is available for $8.10 to Canada and $13.95 to the US.  1/10 ounce gold coins can be shipped for $0.59 to Canada, $1.03 to the US and $1.75 internationally.  One ounce silver and one ounce gold coins have to ship as a "parcel" for about $10, or higher if you want large quantities or faster delivery.
  • Shipping risk is on the buyer.  I estimate a 1/200 chance of non delivery based upon Ebay feedback data.
  • Premiums above spot are approximately 5% for 1 ounce gold, 16% for 1/10 ounce gold and 12% for 1 ounce silver.
  • It appears that converting a large quantity of Bitcoins back to the Canadian cash my bullion wholesaler requires will cost me about a 5% commission.  If you can provide this side of the transaction (Bitcoins to something like Interac e-Transfer) for low commissions, please post.
  • The above doesn't include any labour or risk profit to me.  If you would like me to provide this service for a long period, then a small profit margin will be required.

A People's Court episode indicated that a seller who couldn't prove shipping, through something like registered mail, received a judgement against him.  If you don't want to pay the extra registered mail fees, you have to agree not to sue me in court.

As a new poster without a history here, let me know what proof of my identity and reliability you require before you feel comfortable making a trade.  This information will only be revealed in an e-mail to a potential client, because there was a recent theft in Vancouver, BC of $750,000 in silver after the investor revealed his identity.  For those who wish to receive gold and silver for your Bitcoins, please post your bids.  Thank you.
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BioMike
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March 08, 2011, 06:25:37 AM
 #2

Hi,

Welcome on the forum. Although I'm not interested in buying these coins, I've seen people selling coins coming by from time to time.
This raises a question for me. Why do people buy them? Is it for the gold/silver? Is it for collecting? Can you actually use them to buy stuff?

Good luck. You might also want to check out biddingpond as a trading platform.

Cheers,

BioMike
babkjl
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March 08, 2011, 06:32:45 AM
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Gold and silver coins are usually purchased for long term investment value.  Fiat currency is fatally flawed and always loses value from central bank induced inflation:  they steal value from you as if they are taxing you without representation.  Gold and silver are some of the few good defenses against this theft.  I deal in coins, rather than bars because you can barter them directly for goods if the currency hyperinflates (like in Zimbabwe) or the banks close indefinately (like the 1933 one week closure).  Biddingpond has potential, but this would be a complicated transaction (shipping method, Registered Mail or not).
wobber
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March 08, 2011, 12:42:10 PM
 #4

Can you send 50 ounces of Silver Maple Leaf in Europe? What would be their price and shipping cost? Can you provide some expertise to inform me what other taxes, VAT, customs do I have to pay?

Please tell me the prices in USD. Thank You.

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barbarousrelic
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March 08, 2011, 01:29:10 PM
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A People's Court episode indicated that a seller who couldn't prove shipping, through something like registered mail, received a judgement against him.  If you don't want to pay the extra registered mail fees, you have to agree not to sue me in court.

As Bitcoins are not legally recognized, I highly doubt anyone is going to sue anyone in court to recover Bitcoins.

Do not waste your time debating whether Bitcoin can work. It does work.

"Early adopters will profit" is not a sufficient condition to classify something as a pyramid or Ponzi scheme. If it was, Apple and Microsoft stock are Ponzi schemes.

There is no such thing as "market manipulation." There is only buying and selling.
semyazza
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March 08, 2011, 02:22:16 PM
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Gold and silver coins are usually purchased for long term investment value.  Fiat currency is fatally flawed and always loses value from central bank induced inflation:  they steal value from you as if they are taxing you without representation.  Gold and silver are some of the few good defenses against this theft.  I deal in coins, rather than bars because you can barter them directly for goods if the currency hyperinflates (like in Zimbabwe) or the banks close indefinately (like the 1933 one week closure).  Biddingpond has potential, but this would be a complicated transaction (shipping method, Registered Mail or not).

If you would like to use BiddindPond let met know. I can set you up with a good template to use on the site which will explain all your requirements in an auction format. This will also allow you to build a reputation due to our feedback system.  If your volume is high enough I can also work out other arrangements with you. Also, BiddingPond is always free to list so you might as well try it out.
babkjl
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March 08, 2011, 03:00:30 PM
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Reply to Wobber:

Shipping parcels to Europe varies from $21.07 for 6 week surface delivery up to $76.05 for 4 day delivery.  The import issues for the various countries appear substantial:  Germany forbids the importation of coins, France has special precious metals rules, but the UK doesn't list any restrictions.  VAT is another serious issue.  Fiat currency enforcing governments always try to dissuade citizens from dumping their toilet paper to convert into real money (precious metals or similar) by putting up unethical barriers like taxes.  It's exactly like the pizzo (Mafia tax):  if you don't pay it, the ruling gang threatens you with violence (handcuffs, fines and jail).  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_of_precious_metals  http://www.silverpetition.com/  If you live in Europe it looks like you will have to forget about silver with its 20% VAT.  "In the European Union, the trading of recognised gold coins and bullion products is VAT exempt, but no such allowance is given to silver."  If you still wish to proceed with 50 silver Maple Leafs, the USD price inclucing delivery, but excluding VAT (which I believe you pay on pickup) is approximately USD $2,000.  Exact pricing to be determined by your desired shipping method and the spot market price shortly before sending the Bitcoins.  Canada Post claims to offer shipping insurance, but the fine print excludes coins and bullion.  Other couriers refuse to accept precious metals.  I recommend you consider a few 1/10 ounce gold coin transactions with me to verify you are happy with my services and later consider larger orders like the 1 ounce gold coins.  Thanks for your interest.
babkjl
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March 08, 2011, 03:32:40 PM
 #8

Reply to BiddingPond.com

Yes, I'm willing to work with you.  The normal auction format isn't quite right for precious metals.  What I'm looking for in the bidding process is a percentage above the spot price plus shipping for an indefinate period on many identical items.  The spot price is always changing, but I could enter the daily London Fix price and manually enter the changing spot price as an approximate guide, but the settling price would have to be based upon the actual spot price prevailing shortly before the Bitcoins are sent.  The idea is that I will monitor the percentage bid above spot, consider other information on the prevailing coin premiums and accept them when they are high enough for me.  If I (or other dealers) trade slowly (a few times a month), we'll get higher premiums and if we trade quickly (daily or several times a week) we'll get lower premiums.  Your cut should be around 0.5% for frequent trading and 1% for infrequent trading.  I'd like to see comments from a few potential buyers here on what they would like to see and then I'll probably list a few standard auctions with you.  Perhaps an escrow service where I send you the coins, while the customer sends you the Bitcoins, and you clear them out to us may be of interest to wary customers not comfortable with risking their funds.  Thanks.
Littleshop
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March 08, 2011, 04:21:23 PM
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  • Shipping risk is on the buyer.  I estimate a 1/200 chance of non delivery based upon Ebay feedback data.


What is your ebay username?

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March 08, 2011, 06:13:57 PM
 #10

Maybe you could sell "The right to buy a 1oz GAE for bitcoins at the spot price using MtGox weighted daily price on"

I think this would essentially let people bid on the premium. It is not an 'option' because it isn't the right to buy at some in or out of the money point. It's just the right to get it at whatever that days spot is. It would be silly for someone to win, pay the premium, and not buy the whole coin. And if they do, you still get the premium and can sell the coin again.

That might not be the clearest way to explain, and you would want much clarity since it's an odd thing. You'll probably get people thinking they are getting the coin for just the price of the premium, lol.

Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.
bitjet
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March 08, 2011, 07:38:57 PM
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I will pay silver USD spot at bitcoin exchange rate per oz.
wobber
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March 08, 2011, 08:14:33 PM
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Sorry, I checked and I have to pay VAT if you're outside EU. Not interested in silver if that's the case. But fractions of 1 ounce of gold sound terrific. What can I buy?

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bitjet
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March 08, 2011, 11:37:09 PM
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Sorry, I checked and I have to pay VAT if you're outside EU. Not interested in silver if that's the case. But fractions of 1 ounce of gold sound terrific. What can I buy?

How do they know what your buying? Would you have to pay vat if someone gave it to as a gift? How is possible that you have to pay a tax to someone without them having ANYTHING to do with the transaction, especially since the transaction is started in another part of the world completely free of the EU's jurisdiction? WTF?
babkjl
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March 09, 2011, 05:40:47 AM
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2nd Reply To Wobber.  Including a bubble envelope and shipping to Europe for a 1/10 ounce gold Maple Leaf coin in a mint sealed soft plastic sheet, my quote is 195 Bitcoins. If you send 0.01 Bitcoins to me at 173JqQWfhj7aBa6XcCDYFPfjXfWFYr5hT1 with your e-mail address as an embedded message and the city you live in, I can reply with a photograph of the coin and anything else you require.  I can also photograph the post office receipt and e-mail it to you after mailing. Thanks.

Reply to Littleshop.  My eBay username is also babkjl with feedback score of 24 and all good reviews going back to 2005.  The 1/200 figure comes from careful study of the negative feedback given to other coin dealers compared to their numbers of successful deals.  The shipping risk wasn't the deal breaker with eBay, it was the Paypal chargebacks.  I can't risk the chance of several large deals being reversed months later by a scammer somehow convincing eBay that I hadn't sent the coins.
babkjl
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March 09, 2011, 06:07:32 AM
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Reply to bitjet.  When mailing a parcel through Canada Post, I have to fill out a customs declaration sticker on the outside of the package listing the contents and value.  It's true many people just lie on the form and write down a gift under $40.  A dense package of silver coins is likely to be opened and potentially confiscated or fined extra.  All it would take is a small percentage of packages to be interrupted by the customs officers in the importing country and unhappy receiving customers to have my name trashed.  Or worse, the importing country might have a policy of legal enforcement against lying and I might be at risk from a Canada Post lawsuit against me.  If you would like to become a VAT busting smuggler by coming to Canada to pick up silver directly from me to hand carry back into Europe, I'd be happy to help. 

There are several ways to defeat these absurd forms of government theft which are contrary to the best interests of the citizens:
  • Sign petitions and make it an election issue to get the law changed
  • Dump their fiat currency and move to alternates like gold and Bitcoins
  • Run a smuggling network past the VAT to get the silver into the hands of many citizens who can trade it amongst themselves in a black market
  • Operate a group of exporters willing to lie on the customs forms, with the importers willing to accept the risks of customs interception and pool together the quantities that successfully pass through
  • Actively work directly against government policy to cause it to fail and expect that after the chaos, the rules will be more favourable to the citizens.  For example:  if your government lowers interest rates, pull all money out of banks, increase velocity and save in gold in order to accelerate hyperinflation.
babkjl
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March 09, 2011, 06:41:31 AM
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2nd reply to bitjet.  You'll pay USD spot for silver at Bitcoin exhange rate?  Spot silver refers to wholesale  contract lots of 5,000 ounces based upon five 1,000 ounce bars for COMEX or London Bullion Market inner circle major dealers.  Outside of these dealers the minimum buy orders for close to spot exceed $300,000.  I would be willing to operate a pooled account based upon the spot price that transacts in and out of Bitcoins, but the silver stays in my possession.  It would be based upon Canadian Silver Maple Leaf coins as the physical asset.  I could front the 12% difference between coins and spot from my own pocket.  If you wanted to take physical delivery, the 12% premium + shipping would apply.  Upon demand, I would photograph myself with the silver and the current day newspaper as proof the silver exists.

To make it viable long term, I would have to charge some fees.  Perhaps 0.5% for a round trip transaction plus 0.3% annual storage fee.  Silver spot is currently USD$35.86  The last Mt. Gox trade was 0.8700.  Let's say you send me 100 Bitcoins.  I would then credit you with 2.4200 ounces of silver, keeping 0.0061 ounces of silver as my entry commission.  If silver goes up to USD$40.00 and the Bitcoin exchange rate remained at 0.8700, you could cash out 110.98 Bitcoins while I kept another 0.0061 ounces of silver as commission, and another small amount for storage, depending upon how long between the transactions.  How does this sound?  Any questions, concerns or suggestions?  Thanks.
babkjl
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March 09, 2011, 07:07:50 AM
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As Bitcoins are not legally recognized, I highly doubt anyone is going to sue anyone in court to recover Bitcoins.

Fiat currency laws are nothing but the threat of violence from banksters demanding that we recognize their ponzi paper and easily fabricated computer digits as something of value purely for their own selfish profit.  Our forefathers sold out to them and enslaved us with unpayable debts.  I do not care if Bitcoins have or do not have "legal recognition." I care if people are willing to trade valuable goods and services with them.  I would like to see them succeed as a viable alternative to fiat currency and the other high fee versions such as Paypal.  There are a lot of detractors to a proper hard gold standard, but Bitcoins may be able to overcome most of the objections.  African cell phone payment systems are becoming very prevalent and successful.  I'm sure Bitcoins will eventually appear on cell phones where people can exchange them quickly and easily.

Some kind of fair court system will always be necessary, and must apply to Bitcoins, otherwise you end up with Warlords and corruption.  I look forward to Judge Marilyn Milian listening to a Bitcoins dispute and trying to understand them on television.  She does get a lot of Craigslist and other internet site cases to judge.
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March 09, 2011, 10:06:55 PM
 #18

I hope you can get what you want for it. I need it in my possession.  I buy most of my silver at buy pricing, no premium. Which is usually a bit lower than spot. Someones always looking to get rid of it.

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March 10, 2011, 08:05:06 PM
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They open every package that comes from outside of the EU, at the customs. If you have no invoice (not necessarily in the package, you can have it on you) you're f-ed. If the invoice has a very low price on it, they have a catalogue with products and the customs officer will apply VAT (24%) and customs tax on them. For silver I there are 0 taxes but 24% VAT.

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March 12, 2011, 02:05:35 AM
 #20

One Silver Maple Leaf is currently listed at http://www.biddingpond.com/item.php?id=379, along with some US circulation coins.  I discovered that one silver Maple Leaf can actually ship as Lettermail in a 00 bubble wrap envelope for a little over $1, not the $10 parcel post I had originally thought.  If the silver Maple Leaf sells for a few Bitcoins above my replacement cost of 47 Bitcoins, then I'll list more plus some gold ones. 

The Big Mac was introduced nationally in 1967 for US$0.49.  It's now CAN$4.47 at my local McDonalds.  The price didn't go up, the value of the dollar went down.  The 99% of citizens who aren't part of the check kiting ponzi scheme should shun depreciating government fiat currency and move to alternatives like Bitcoins and precious metals. 

"End the Fed!"

"Buy a silver coin, crash JP Morgan!" 

Have a great weekend everyone.
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