The correction and recovery in a nutshell.

[MatTheCat]

We're trying not to spook the merchants that are the key to wider adoption. If this interferes with your day-trading, so be it. You aligned your interests against the greater good of the community, so seems kind of a douche move to bitch about it now. Hell, you might even get your way, But I'll be fighting it. It's not manipulation. It's betting on Bitcoin's future. Workin' pretty good for me so far.

You know,if I believed that the Bitcoin market is being held up by a society of benevolent market manipulators, who really believe that they are doing what they are doing for the greater good of mankind, then I would happily go long. Not just to make money but because I am like that. Problem is that I don't think this. I think that the Bitcoin market price is being held up by a society of malevolent sharks and who knows what interests they have mind but they certainly don't have my interests at heart. I wouldn't be surprised if Bitcoin is artificially supported up until a certain point in time when a certain objective is achieved, and then that support is either removed, or the manipulators actually make moves to crash it themselves......

.....if big Wall St capital wants in on Bitcoin, they are going to take their positions as cheaply as possible.

In the meantime, I don't know whether I can short Bitcoin cos I don't know what price targets the whales are looking to maintain and I can't go long cos if this artificial support is removed, then Bitcoin crashes through the floor boards because it is still wildly over extended without the fairy godmothers floating about working their magic to keep the thing up.

For the past few hours the exact opposite has been happening.  Sellers appear on BFX and hold the price down on Bitstamp.  Fact is, people buy and sell coins.  Sometimes big buyers want to buy.  Sometimes big sellers want to sell.  Why do you get your knickers in a twist?  Fat lot you're going to do about it by whingeing.

Those large sell offs aren't damaging the spot price. The large buys have totally saved the Bitcoin market price from freefall. The sell-offs are possibly the whales liquidising their market intervention purchases. I have watched the Bitcoin markets like a guard hound the past few days (getting addicted to it) and I have a pretty good sense of the market management policy in place on the USD exchanges.

[billyjoeallen]

We're trying not to spook the merchants that are the key to wider adoption. If this interferes with your day-trading, so be it. You aligned your interests against the greater good of the community, so seems kind of a douche move to bitch about it now. Hell, you might even get your way, But I'll be fighting it. It's not manipulation. It's betting on Bitcoin's future. Workin' pretty good for me so far.

You know,if I believed that the Bitcoin market is being held up by a society of benevolent market manipulators, who really believe that they are doing what they are doing for the greater good of mankind, then I would happily go long. Not just to make money but because I am like that. Problem is that I don't think this. I think that the Bitcoin market price is being held up by a society of malevolent sharks and who knows what interests they have mind but they certainly don't have my interests at heart. I wouldn't be surprised if Bitcoin is artificially supported up until a certain point in time when a certain objective is achieved, and then that support is either removed, or the manipulators actually make moves to crash it themselves......

.....if big Wall St capital wants in on Bitcoin, they are going to take their positions as cheaply as possible.

In the meantime, I don't know whether I can short Bitcoin cos I don't know what price targets the whales are looking to maintain and I can't go long cos if this artificial support is removed, then Bitcoin crashes through the floor boards because it is still wildly over extended without the fairy godmothers floating about working their magic to keep the thing up.

Duuuude. Your inability to predict the future is not evidence of a grand conspiracy. Markets always act to take your money. It's the sum total of thousands of actors, all wanting to maximize profit and minimize loss.  The casino is rigged! It's the ancient cry of the loser.  Show some dignity and suffer in silence. We all take hits and make wrong calls. Ride it out, cut your losses, double down or go home. Your conspiracy theory isn't original or entertaining. Or maybe it is entertaining and I just have an underdeveloped sense of schadenfreude.

[MatTheCat]

Duuuude. Your inability to predict the future is not evidence of a grand conspiracy. Markets always act to take your money. It's the sum total of thousands of actors, all wanting to maximize profit and minimize loss.  The casino is rigged! It's the ancient cry of the loser.  Show some dignity and suffer in silence. We all take hits and make wrong calls. Ride it out, cut your losses, double down or go home. Your conspiracy theory isn't original or entertaining. Or maybe it is entertaining and I just have an underdeveloped sense of schadenfreude.

I am not whinging about my inability to predict the future.

I am making an observation of forces at work in the market. I have tried to keep the rationalising to a minimum because I really don't know 'why' these forces are at work but I do know that they are present. I would consider that being aware of the existence of these hidden hands is quite important for anyone trading Bitcoin.

Also, I would just like to point out that I netted over $1000 overall for that evenings/nights trading. So I did 'win'....just not as much as I would have liked.

[billyjoeallen]

I am not whinging about my inability to predict the future.

I am making an observation of forces at work in the market. I have tried to keep the rationalising to a minimum because I really don't know 'why' these forces are at work but I do know that they are present.

Also, I would just like to point out that I netted over $1000 overall for that evenings/nights trading. So I did 'win'....just not as much as I would have liked.
[/quote]

So you don't know why they are at work but you know that they are "bad" forces, right? That makes sense 

and whining that you did win, but not as much as you wanted, makes you look even worse than if you had lost. 

[MatTheCat]

So you don't know why they are at work but you know that they are "bad" forces, right? That makes sense  

and whining that you did win, but not as much as you wanted, makes you look even worse than if you had lost.  

Obviously when you are playing a game and you discover that the rules to the game aren't quite as they seem, it causes a bit of disgruntlement. A period of mental adjustment is required to absorb that cheating and manipulation is part of the rules.

The manipulation is 'bad' because it is only done in the interest of the manipulator. The manipulation is not my friend and only benefits me if I can align my bets with the manipulators desires. Since I have no charts or statistical indicators that provide me with insight into  the workings of the manipulators heads, this is easier said than done. Therefore, it is good to have an idea of what the policy is. Had I knew, what I now know, then I would have came out my short at the $765 support as I would have known that this would not be allowed to be broken, no matter what.

[Ibian]

The rules are: You can buy and sell at the price someone else will agree to. That's all of the rules. Rants about cheating and rigging just look silly.

As for why a whale would want to spend money to support the price, it might be a simple matter of long term adoption. If the price falls to a third or a tenth or something similarly perverse, as some people dream of, bitcoin is not going to see the same level of adoption as it otherwise would. The price itself doesn't matter if you get the same long term ROI at $1000 as you would at $300.

[MatTheCat]

The rules are: You can buy and sell at the price someone else will agree to. That's all of the rules. Rants about cheating and rigging just look silly.

As for why a whale would want to spend money to support the price, it might be a simple matter of long term adoption. If the price falls to a third or a tenth or something similarly perverse, as some people dream of, bitcoin is not going to see the same level of adoption as it otherwise would. The price itself doesn't matter if you get the same long term ROI at $1000 as you would at $300.

How many Bitcoins do you own?

You may be quite happy with the efforts being made to uphold the price as it protects the nominal value of your wealth. You may also like to think that this is all being done for the long term strength of the Bitcoin market because again, that would be all kind of beneficial to the long term nominal value of your Bitcoin wealth. However, what if this price fixing was part of a Dunkirk evacuation operation allowing whales to get a certain amount of Bitcoin into cash at artificially high prices? Been a whole lot of cashing out recently. I seen an 800 BTC order knocking the Stamp price down $4. How much do you think the price would be knocked down if you or I tried to offload 800 BTC in one order. $50, $75, probably more?

[aminorex]

You may be quite happy with the efforts ...

Actually, I'm quite happy with your efforts, felix.  I've concluded that your paranoid theories are being promulgated to shake weak hands, in order to make the market less volatile and more robust, in the manner of an innoculation against a life-threatening virus.  Indeed it's not just you, but an entire conspiratorial army of ersatz bears who spread FUD in order to prevent a sequence of increasingly frequent blow-off tops from leading to a finite-time singularity prematurely.  For that matter, even if I knew without a shred of doubt that you honestly believed in your entire parade of boogey-men, I would still be convinced that you were doing strategic holders exactly that service, albiet unwittingly.  So... thank you.

[MatTheCat]

Actually, I'm quite happy with your efforts, felix.  I've concluded that your paranoid theories are being promulgated to shake weak hands, in order to make the market less volatile and more robust, in the manner of an innoculation against a life-threatening virus.  Indeed it's not just you, but an entire conspiratorial army of ersatz bears who spread FUD in order to prevent a sequence of increasingly frequent blow-off tops from leading to a finite-time singularity prematurely.  For that matter, even if I knew without a shred of doubt that you honestly believed in your entire parade of boogey-men, I would still be convinced that you were doing strategic holders exactly that service, albiet unwittingly.  So... thank you.

What is a strategic holder?

Someone who is too stupid to trade Bitcoin and turn a profit, but through phenomenal luck has amassed great riches?

Is a 'strategic holder' the same sort of person who will likely hold onto his Bitcoins as they one day turn to dust, too stupid to do anything else with them?

Is a 'strategic holder' the Bitcoin equivalent of 'Silver Stacker' in the precious metals investing community. They did quite well for a while didn't they, believing in all their circle jerk silver propaganda stories, until one day it stopped working out so well. You reckon Bitcoinland is going to be immune from that?

[billyjoeallen]

Actually, I'm quite happy with your efforts, felix.  I've concluded that your paranoid theories are being promulgated to shake weak hands, in order to make the market less volatile and more robust, in the manner of an innoculation against a life-threatening virus.  Indeed it's not just you, but an entire conspiratorial army of ersatz bears who spread FUD in order to prevent a sequence of increasingly frequent blow-off tops from leading to a finite-time singularity prematurely.  For that matter, even if I knew without a shred of doubt that you honestly believed in your entire parade of boogey-men, I would still be convinced that you were doing strategic holders exactly that service, albiet unwittingly.  So... thank you.

What is a strategic holder?

Someone who is too stupid to trade Bitcoin and turn a profit, but through phenomenal luck has amassed great riches?

Is a 'strategic holder' the same sort of person who will likely hold onto his Bitcoins as they one day turn to dust, too stupid to do anything else with them?

Is a 'strategic holder' the Bitcoin equivalent of 'Silver Stacker' in the precious metals investing community. They did quite well for a while didn't they, believing in all their circle jerk silver propaganda stories, until one day it stopped working out so well. You reckon Bitcoinland is going to be immune from that?

Yeah, that's it. It's gotta be luck. The one thing that that is common among all losers is a victim mentality. They were unlucky. Someone was out to get them. It's never their fault they are losers.

[MatTheCat]

Yeah, that's it. It's gotta be luck. The one thing that that is common among all losers is a victim mentality. They were unlucky. Someone was out to get them. It's never their fault they are losers.

In Bitcoin, I have missed the boat thus far (although I have still made thousands), despite being down at the harbour in very good time, seeing the boat and telling everyone, anyone riding that boat could be in for a great trip.

In life in general however, I done very well. Looking back, I can't honestly say that the way things have all fallen into place was down to my own personal brilliance or intelligence....twas all just fucking luck. Thing is, I am smart and self aware enough to know this. But other people, people with a weakness for padding up their own egos, need to somehow attribute anything good they have got as being a result of something inherently great about themselves.

You are not great and I can tell by the way you communicate that you are not even that smart. Lucky? Most definitely.

For obvious reasons, this forum is full of fkn idiots like yourself who have gotten seriously lucky, resulting in a whole lot of people around this place with a hyper inflated sense of self significance. It is enough to make me wish that Bitcoins goes down in flames (and it definitely will one day within our lifetimes and probably a lot sooner than that) just to see all you guys getting wiped out.....but I won't wish that cos I will probably be riding on it when it does.

[Ibian]

You are kind of an ass, mat. What's up with that?

[MatTheCat]

You are kind of an ass, mat. What's up with that?

It is called deliberate antagonisation. You can find it all over this place. I like to take it step further than most....but only with those whose vibe is not to my liking.

[billyjoeallen]

You are kind of an ass, mat. What's up with that?

It is called deliberate antagonisation. You can find it all over this place. I like to take it step further than most....but only with those whose vibe is not to my liking.

Dude, you got problems.

[raid_n]

In life in general however, I done very well. Looking back, I can't honestly say that the way things have all fallen into place was down to my own personal brilliance or intelligence....twas all just fucking luck. Thing is, I am smart and self aware enough to know this. But other people, people with a weakness for padding up their own egos, need to somehow attribute anything good they have got as being a result of something inherently great about themselves.

You are not great and I can tell by the way you communicate that you are not even that smart. Lucky? Most definitely.

So by your logic your greatness comes from the fact that you know you were lucky while others who don't attribute their (good) decisions to luck are idiots?

I'm sorry but the fact is that just because you personally don't believe that bitcoin as a technology will succeed doesn't mean it won't.
People hodling because they believe in the technology are not idiots. They are speculating on something other than what you believe in.
At this stage history is mostly in their favour. If that will remain so is to be seen.

[MatTheCat]

So by your logic your greatness comes from the fact that you know you were lucky while others who don't attribute their (good) decisions to luck are idiots?

I'm sorry but the fact is that just because you personally don't believe that bitcoin as a technology will succeed doesn't mean it won't.
People hodling because they believe in the technology are not idiots. They are speculating on something other than what you believe in.
At this stage history is mostly in their favour. If that will remain so is to be seen.

No.

By my logic people who start personally ridiculing anyone who happens to say beep against Bitcoins or the market, get the same back, and then some.

Believe in Bitcoins?

I used to, but these days Bitcoin smells more and more of death to me. Whether that is because with Bitcoin being the first of its kind, its a near statistical certainty that some kind of technological headache will crop that may just render it untenable, or because greed if not outright avarice are central tenets of the Bitcoin ethos I don't know.

The Bitcoin world consists of a pyramid heap of rats vying with one another to get the top, and I include myself with that. I hate Bitcoin, but I will continue to make money trading it, because I can.

[raid_n]

The Bitcoin world consists of a pyramid heap of rats vying with one another to get the top, and I include myself with that. I hate Bitcoin, but I will continue to make money trading it, because I can.

To the top of what? I have a minuscule amount of BTC because I believe in the concept and that it could go up in value.

You are projecting your character and motivation onto a very diversified group of people.
In my eyes you are only interested in the short to medium term value swings and have no real notion of how significant this technology is.
For what it is worth you'd probably invest in Tulips if they were as volatile.

Cryptocurrencies will change the world, like it or not.

[MatTheCat]

The Bitcoin world consists of a pyramid heap of rats vying with one another to get the top, and I include myself with that. I hate Bitcoin, but I will continue to make money trading it, because I can.

To the top of what? I have a minuscule amount of BTC because I believe in the concept and that it could go up in value.

You are projecting your character and motivation onto a very diversified group of people.
In my eyes you are only interested in the short to medium term value swings and have no real notion of how significant this technology is.
For what it is worth you'd probably invest in Tulips if they were as volatile.

Cryptocurrencies will change the world, like it or not.

You are passive fodder on the very bottom of the pile that the rats will happily feed on. Anyone with a semi-significant stake in Bitcoin is not thinking or acting like you do, although you did state yourself, that you own BTC because it could go up in value. Perhaps your saving grace is that you don't have enough of a stake to get in a tizzy about.

[Dalmar]

Why do bitcointalk users always assume that bears are bitter or missed out on previous runs? Many of us actually bought in very low and are still way up in profit. Nevertheless, you can still be pessimistic about the BTC price for the near term (weeks/months).

[shmadz]

We're trying not to spook the merchants that are the key to wider adoption. If this interferes with your day-trading, so be it. You aligned your interests against the greater good of the community, so seems kind of a douche move to bitch about it now. Hell, you might even get your way, But I'll be fighting it. It's not manipulation. It's betting on Bitcoin's future. Workin' pretty good for me so far.

You know,if I believed that the Bitcoin market is being held up by a society of benevolent market manipulators, who really believe that they are doing what they are doing for the greater good of mankind, then I would happily go long. Not just to make money but because I am like that. Problem is that I don't think this. I think that the Bitcoin market price is being held up by a society of malevolent sharks and who knows what interests they have mind but they certainly don't have my interests at heart. I wouldn't be surprised if Bitcoin is artificially supported up until a certain point in time when a certain objective is achieved, and then that support is either removed, or the manipulators actually make moves to crash it themselves......

.....if big Wall St capital wants in on Bitcoin, they are going to take their positions as cheaply as possible.

In the meantime, I don't know whether I can short Bitcoin cos I don't know what price targets the whales are looking to maintain and I can't go long cos if this artificial support is removed, then Bitcoin crashes through the floor boards because it is still wildly over extended without the fairy godmothers floating about working their magic to keep the thing up.

For the past few hours the exact opposite has been happening.  Sellers appear on BFX and hold the price down on Bitstamp.  Fact is, people buy and sell coins.  Sometimes big buyers want to buy.  Sometimes big sellers want to sell.  Why do you get your knickers in a twist?  Fat lot you're going to do about it by whingeing.

Those large sell offs aren't damaging the spot price. The large buys have totally saved the Bitcoin market price from freefall. The sell-offs are possibly the whales liquidising their market intervention purchases. I have watched the Bitcoin markets like a guard hound the past few days (getting addicted to it) and I have a pretty good sense of the market management policy in place on the USD exchanges.

Thank you for this Mat, I was struggling to see why our subconscious minds were at such polar opposites. Now I understand completely.

I appreciate your sharing of your dreams and your feelings about this market, so I thought I'd share mine.

My feeling is that "big Wall St capital" can go get fucked.

I am completely out of this market for the time being. I took all my bitcoin and left the casino. Lets me sleep at night. This thing could drop to 600, 300? who knows? but in my not-so-subconscious, this is a binary bet.

what will go to 0 first? bicoin? or the dollar?