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Author Topic: Creating a guaranteed minimum income through crypto-coins  (Read 14690 times)
twiifm
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June 20, 2014, 01:20:27 AM
 #101

A robot bartender will cost lot more than a human one.   Makes no economic sense
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June 22, 2014, 08:14:04 PM
 #102

A robot bartender will cost lot more than a human one.   Makes no economic sense
It depends.

Robots you pay for once. Humans you pay for continuously. Once you buy the robot then it doesn't get tired, it doesn't ask for a salary or sleep.
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June 22, 2014, 08:23:41 PM
 #103

A robot bartender will cost lot more than a human one.   Makes no economic sense
It depends.

Robots you pay for once. Humans you pay for continuously. Once you buy the robot then it doesn't get tired, it doesn't ask for a salary or sleep.

Repair and maintenance cost of robot are expensive. You could argue health care cost is expensive also.


Hence, you have all the corporation outsourcing their entire production to 3rd world country where they don't have to pay for health care nor pay for polluting the environment.
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June 23, 2014, 03:41:59 AM
 #104

A robot bartender will cost lot more than a human one.   Makes no economic sense
It depends.

Robots you pay for once. Humans you pay for continuously. Once you buy the robot then it doesn't get tired, it doesn't ask for a salary or sleep.
If you use a robot for one year it will likely be more expensive then one years salary for a bartender.

You will still need to pay for things like repairs and electricity for the robot. If you are paying the bartender only $2.13 per hour then these expenses would potentially exceed what you would pay the bartender.

A robot will also not be able to effectively upsell and encourage additional sales the same ways that a human can. 

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June 24, 2014, 04:36:17 AM
 #105

A robot bartender will cost lot more than a human one.   Makes no economic sense
It depends.

Robots you pay for once. Humans you pay for continuously. Once you buy the robot then it doesn't get tired, it doesn't ask for a salary or sleep.
If you use a robot for one year it will likely be more expensive then one years salary for a bartender.

You will still need to pay for things like repairs and electricity for the robot. If you are paying the bartender only $2.13 per hour then these expenses would potentially exceed what you would pay the bartender.

A robot will also not be able to effectively upsell and encourage additional sales the same ways that a human can. 

Have you ever seen a robot steal office supplies?  Have you ever seen a robot take a smoke break without clocking out?  Have you ever seen a robot watch youtube cat videos on the boss' dime.

Man reigns supreme!
ShakyhandsBTCer
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June 24, 2014, 04:41:21 AM
 #106

A robot bartender will cost lot more than a human one.   Makes no economic sense
It depends.

Robots you pay for once. Humans you pay for continuously. Once you buy the robot then it doesn't get tired, it doesn't ask for a salary or sleep.
If you use a robot for one year it will likely be more expensive then one years salary for a bartender.

You will still need to pay for things like repairs and electricity for the robot. If you are paying the bartender only $2.13 per hour then these expenses would potentially exceed what you would pay the bartender.

A robot will also not be able to effectively upsell and encourage additional sales the same ways that a human can. 

Have you ever seen a robot steal office supplies?  Have you ever seen a robot take a smoke break without clocking out?  Have you ever seen a robot watch youtube cat videos on the boss' dime.

Man reigns supreme!
Even with these inefficiencies the cost of tipped service labor is likely to be less then that of the electric and maintenance costs of a robot.

Tipped labor has an incentive to attempt to sell the most product as their pay is linked directly to their sales as well as the level of service they provide. Tipped labor also has incentives not to be inefficient as in your examples as their level of service would decrease. 
thedarklight
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June 25, 2014, 09:23:29 PM
 #107

A robot bartender will cost lot more than a human one.   Makes no economic sense
It depends.

Robots you pay for once. Humans you pay for continuously. Once you buy the robot then it doesn't get tired, it doesn't ask for a salary or sleep.
If you use a robot for one year it will likely be more expensive then one years salary for a bartender.

You will still need to pay for things like repairs and electricity for the robot. If you are paying the bartender only $2.13 per hour then these expenses would potentially exceed what you would pay the bartender.

A robot will also not be able to effectively upsell and encourage additional sales the same ways that a human can. 

Solar electricity can power robots so I don't think electricity is the issue. I think repair can be made by letting robots make a profit and pay for its own repairs with its savings.

I do think robots eventually will be dramatically cheaper for the service industry. It will start with vending machines and slowly progress to robots.
ShakyhandsBTCer
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June 26, 2014, 10:58:26 PM
 #108

A robot bartender will cost lot more than a human one.   Makes no economic sense
It depends.

Robots you pay for once. Humans you pay for continuously. Once you buy the robot then it doesn't get tired, it doesn't ask for a salary or sleep.
If you use a robot for one year it will likely be more expensive then one years salary for a bartender.

You will still need to pay for things like repairs and electricity for the robot. If you are paying the bartender only $2.13 per hour then these expenses would potentially exceed what you would pay the bartender.

A robot will also not be able to effectively upsell and encourage additional sales the same ways that a human can. 

Solar electricity can power robots so I don't think electricity is the issue. I think repair can be made by letting robots make a profit and pay for its own repairs with its savings.

I do think robots eventually will be dramatically cheaper for the service industry. It will start with vending machines and slowly progress to robots.
We already have vending machines and they do not replace many jobs as they usually sell things that would not otherwise be sold at their locations.

Solar energy is not free or even cheap. Counting the costs to buy the solar panels and their expected useful life span solar energy is more expensive then other forms of energy, it is just that the government has chosen to subsidize the solar energy market temporarily
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June 27, 2014, 12:43:59 AM
 #109

Some sort of place where human input is needed that can provide a stable salary is known as a job
In cryto I guess it would be a miner but until we develop 3D engagement systems we probally won't need maintenance teams in the cloud where cryto coins would be useful.
A nice ideal though

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June 27, 2014, 03:45:34 AM
 #110

I've posted on this in another forum:  < https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=429437.0 >  but this one may be better suited to getting discussion going.

There is a concept of guaranteeing every person a free minimum income.  
- Advantages include countering extreme poverty and providing buffering against deep recessions/depressions.
- One justification is that a capitalist economy takes some value from all, by imposing externalities on all (pollution, loss of natural beauty, loss of access to formerly unowned land, etc).
- Probably the largest objection to guaranteed income is that it has always appeared that it would have to be created by a government, which would take from some in order to give to all.

My thesis here is that it might be possible to create a crypto-currency that provides a totally voluntary, non-governmental, world-wide guaranteed minimum income.
See the link above for some discussion of some technical attributes of such a coin system.

The biggest issue appears to be how to prevent fraud by double dipping - creating multiple fake accounts to generate multiple streams of free coins.
One approach would be to somehow tie participant accounts to their real identity.  Again, I've proposed a few ways that might be done in that other post.

Can anyone see any way to make this work, without tying coin creation to true identity?  Maybe some sort of "proof of work by a real human"?


There are already many coin similar to this, check out motocoin.

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August 02, 2014, 11:52:44 PM
 #111

One of the problems of guaranteed minimum income is that many people who are perfectly capable of working will refuse to do so because they do not feel the need to.

Ironically that is also the problem of capitalism, as people with enough money will just retire early (in fact that's the whole point of making money).

I think any system based on money will encourage some people to not contribute to society, that's why a society-based system would be so much better.

I remember seeing a threat about the danger of robots stealing our jobs. This is not a new topic either. When industrial revolution started some people predicted all jobs would be eventually outsourced to machines, but back than it was considered a good thing, and in fact it should be.

Some things require human thought and skills machines will never be able to perform, but most jobs can be perfectly handled by machines, fully automated, and much cheaper, faster, efficient and less wasteful than a human ever could. This would mean that no human would ever be required to work 40 hours a week, and leave us free to do what we desire most, while occasionally doing some light jobs that machines can't do. The whole world would benefit from it.

However in the current capitalistic world the only thing that would happen is that whoever replaced their workforce with robots will just safe a lot on wages and make a huge profit, but it will not directly benefit anyone other than the stakeholders of the company. In fact all the employees who got fired will be off way worse.

So even though the productivity and efficiency of the world increased, and by extension "true wealth" increased, relative wealth decreased for all but the very rich investors. That's one of the many things wrong with capitalism. Fiat money (and even gold/bitcoin) are not an accurate representation of true wealth, and people are more concerned about their own short term interest than about the long term interest of the world as a whole.

What a brilliant comment. I completely agree with you. I would much rather see a world without money. How about a world not based on money which breeds individualism but on unity. Imagine if we could combine the minds and skills of the people? How great would the world be?
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