BFL ASIC REFUNDS - Why? NOT FCC APPROVED! Class action?

[georgeberz]

Here is the officail complaint
You can file your own at
https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/kdb/index.cfm
on left click on "submit an inquiry"
then after filling your information select complaint
then non compliant equipment

This is the Federal Government folks, each and every complaint HAS to be followed up on!

--
 

I spoke with Jim Szeliga re: Butterfly Labs www.butterflylabs.com
He said to file a complaint and to ask it get routed to him if needed to speed things up since he is up to speed a bit.

The company has terrible customer service which has lead me to start digging looking for problems with the company I was reading
http://transition.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/bulletins/oet62/oet62rev.pdf

and my intrepration of a external periphial computing device requires some form of written authorization and the company will not provide it and deleted me access to their discussion forums.

Butterfly Labs
has been marketing / selling these products for nearly 2 years
they told me they do not need any FCC approval

They are selling a essentially a math co processor for a computer that is a external periphial running at over 9mhz their devices plug into a computer and do complex math problems, they market and sell online to residential customers and have been for some time.

I have spent over $8,000.00 with them and want my money back. Many others have been affected, there are thousands of customers and they are coming out with a new product as well a internal card to process computations as well.

Please look into their 10 Giga Hash and 50 GH products those are the ones I bought and I'd be happy to submit a device for quick enforcement action.

Please look at their website to confirm marketing to anyone and offering equipment for sale without any FCC approvals or authorizations. Also I believe one of the main people in the corporation is an ex felon if that makes any difference.

Contact info follows, they have NEVER returned my phone calls!

http://www.butterflylabs.com/

Their address is

Butterfly Labs
10770 El Monte #101
Leawood, KS 6621
800-809-6463

PS I could not find any corporation listed at that address or name by the
Kansas Business Entity Search
https[Suspicious link removed]cution=e1s2
the only thing that comes up is BF Labs at a different address. it looks like I need to address that as well with the Kansas dept of corporations, that will be my next complaint.

[georgeberz]

Forgot to mention
when submitting your complaint, after initial submission but before sending there is a place to attach PDF copies of your invoices, scan and attach your invoices as well so they can see it is not just me lets flood them with complaints and get a quick enforcement action!

You will get a conformation number after everything is submitted!

Inquiry Tracking Number:   275835
Date of Original Submission:   01/30/2014
Date of Submission:   01/30/2014

George

[georgeberz]

Anyone who still has an account at BFL forums, they have deleted mine rather than answer my questions and they are editing their troll box and forum postings!

Please go there and get people to come here to this forum, give them a link in the troll box

[Red_Wolf_2]

Just wondering, has anyone considered the possible further reaching ramifications of this? If the FCC find against BFL and fine them, they will immediately start looking for other possible avenues in the same line to follow, namely any other bitcoin mining equipment that isn't FCC certified.

While it is unlikely given the design of the bfl gear (all metal cases, no large gaps anywhere, proper grounding through the case to the USB port shield, etc), if they are found to interfere with lawful radio transmissions, the FCC could issue orders for all users of BFL gear to shut them down or risk hefty fines. This would mean all customers under FCC jurisdiction.

So. That would mean a large bunch of people having to stop mining. But why would it stop there? Other equipment would become a target too. If it has issues then it too could be ordered to be shut down. Particularly the kind of equipment that is operated without cases, as these have little to no shielding to prevent RF noise being propagated.

This could be a very interesting and dangerous can of worms to open. It will be interesting to see where this ends up going. I must admit, I will laugh if it ends up biting any of the complainants in the bum.

[georgeberz]

Also I cannot find a listing with the Kansas Department of Corporations for them either and they claim to be incorporated on their website

Perhaps you can find a listing...

https://www.kansas.gov/bess/flow/main?execution=e2s1


I think it is against corporate law to not have a filing in the name you do business as , as well as listing your correct address on the form. Again I dont know but I am digging into it.

[georgeberz]

Red Wolf
I saw you were on BFL chatbox when someone posted a link to here this topic and then it was amazingly gone...
Can you testify to seeing something appear about FCC and link to here then it being quickly deleted by moderators?

[georgeberz]

I heard somewhere that BFL is making 75,000 of the monarchs I dont know if true or not, I hope this does not stand in their way as I told Jim Szeliga to get on it quick or a bunch of i think illegal products could or may hit the market

[georgeberz]

Gosh this is getting interesting...

I wonder if the postal authorities would be concerned about possible illegal goods being shipped through the US mails?

And I wonder about the FBI for the interstate commerce trafficking in possibly illegal hardware.



Many calls and WRITTEN complaints to be made.

[georgeberz]

Local BBB  Better Business Breau has given BF Labs Butterfly Labs ButterflyLabs a "F" rating

http://www.bbb.org/kansas-city/business-reviews/electronic-equipment-and-supplies-wholesale-and-manufacturers/bf-labs-inc-in-overland-park-ks-1000002011

[Red_Wolf_2]

Red Wolf
I saw you were on BFL chatbox when someone posted a link to here this topic and then it was amazingly gone...
Can you testify to seeing something appear about FCC and link to here then it being quickly deleted by moderators?

Can confirm, two or three lines pointing to this topic, refreshed the chat window and they had vanished. No idea who was around to actually do it though.

[georgeberz]

You cant delete your own chat stuff there so, an admin must have done it?... makes you think hummmm...

[empoweoqwj]

Local BBB  Better Business Breau has given BF Labs Butterfly Labs ButterflyLabs a "F" rating

http://www.bbb.org/kansas-city/business-reviews/electronic-equipment-and-supplies-wholesale-and-manufacturers/bf-labs-inc-in-overland-park-ks-1000002011

Is "F" as low as it goes? What's the scale?

[Evan]

Talked with Jim, the FCC stuff is a self-declaration, and a Non issue, the worst that can happen is BFL gets a fine form the enforcement group.

And frankly there are MUCH more important issues with outdoor lighting cause RF interference than for the FCC to chase down John and Sonny, At best there is no jail time, and BFL states they didnt know they needed to get an FCC auth on these items.

All they care about is RF leakage, and potential to put nose back on to the power grid.


After googling the BETTER route might be doing to UL, and getting the declared illegal or a safety hazard, as we all KNOW many of them have caught on fire.

[Red_Wolf_2]

Talked with Jim, the FCC stuff is a self-declaration, and a Non issue, the worst that can happen is BFL gets a fine form the enforcement group.

And frankly there are MUCH more important issues with outdoor lighting cause RF interference than for the FCC to chase down John and Sonny, At best there is no jail time, and BFL states they didnt know they needed to get an FCC auth on these items.

All they care about is RF leakage, and potential to put nose back on to the power grid.


After googling the BETTER route might be doing to UL, and getting the declared illegal or a safety hazard, as we all KNOW many of them have caught on fire.

This, this and this. Whether deliberate or not, those metal box cases are almost the perfect shield for any RF interference the gear could create. I even tested my gear with some of the radio equipment I have access to and found more RF hash coming from the host PC than the jalapeno I tested against (I used a battery as PSU for the jalapeno).

As for catching on fire, the real hazard is those godawful PSUs that came with the Jalapenos. Those things are horrendous. Only time I've lost any USB connected gear was thanks to one of them. What is interesting about them is the label shows them as having both CE and FCC marks. If they were found to be non-compliant, I'd expect BFL to be able to go back to its supplier for compensation instead as the product was not fit for the purpose, nor compliant even though it claimed to be (misrepresented by the manufacturer).

[Bicknellski]

Where is that forum post where Inaba says BFL sent the product in for FCC testing and then there is NO RECORD of it ever going to the facility for testing?

Oh and hey... look at the Monarch... see the ETL, CE and FCC logos. Think this thing will get tested? Add that to the list.




http://www.intertek.com/marks/etl/
http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/policies/single-market-goods/cemarking/about-ce-marking/index_en.htm

Silkscreening it on a board doesn't mean much if they haven't been tested properly.

There have been 0 documents produced from BFL to show they agree to conform or conform to EC, ETL or FCC requirements. Maybe someone could get the testing done independently and then make a complaint. They might then have to recall the units.

What is a manufacturer's Declaration of Conformity?

The EU Declaration of Conformity (DoC) is a document in which the manufacturer, or his authorised representative within the European Economic Area (EEA), indicates that the product meets all the necessary requirements laid down in the applicable directives. The DoC must also contain the name and address of the manufacturer along with information about the product, such as the brand and serial number. The DoC must be signed by an individual working for the manufacturer or his/her authorised representative, and the employee's function must also be indicated. Whether a Notified Body has been involved or not, the manufacturer must draw up and sign the EC Declaration of Conformity.

[Evan]

Again, UNLESS BFL is billing these are Class A electronics, and even then, THIS IS A NON ISSUE, and IS ONLY GOING TO BE A FINE.

ALL THEY CARE ABOUT IS RF, LEAKAGE.

If its not broadcasting (a transmitter) then the FCC has NO FUCKS GIVEN.

Guy drop this, I hate BFL just as much as the rest of you.

IF  A class action is going to happen its going to be based on:

Advertising/Sales Issues (aka under performance, selling refurbished units as new)
Billing/Collection Issues    (aka refusal to refund in violation with federal guidelines)
Delivery Issues    (the famous delays)
Guarantee/Warranty Issues    (RMA process not being outlines)
Problems with Product/Service  (Catching on FIRE)




Again this the FCC stuff at this point is a Self deceleration. And unless its leaking again a massive ammountof RF (again don't tkae your apart and stick a meter on top of the chip) from what i understand this test is something like  4-6 inches away and then on the power cords and other devices connected to it (EG the USB cable)

[georgeberz]

He said she said, it is in my opinion these devices are computers, they have a ASIC processor that runs x GHZ and uses the usb cable to get data. Where a periphial to me is more like a xbox controller. but we will see, I made a written complaint and it has to be follower up in writing. I will post the answer here one way or another. so lets see what happens.

I dont think self declaration will work with these, I have offered to send them a couple one 10 GH and one 50 GH for their evaluation.

As far as I know a class A computing device it cant be marketed to hobbyist or consumers only to business and they have to implement policies not to sell to individuals.

They do not list a suite number on their website only when you get a RMA #101
I cant find a listing for Butterfly labs on the state corporations website in KS Im fIling complaint w/ state atty general on monday, i did find one that said BF labs at a different address and as far as I understand they cant advertise under a different name than their corporate registration.

Lets see where all this goes...

[Evan]

He said she said, it is in my opinion these devices are computers, they have a ASIC processor that runs x GHZ and uses the usb cable to get data. Where a periphial to me is more like a xbox controller. but we will see, I made a written complaint and it has to be follower up in writing. I will post the answer here one way or another. so lets see what happens.

I dont think self declaration will work with these, I have offered to send them a couple one 10 GH and one 50 GH for their evaluation.

As far as I know a class A computing device it cant be marketed to hobbyist or consumers only to business and they have to implement policies not to sell to individuals.

They do not list a suite number on their website only when you get a RMA #101
I cant find a listing for Butterfly labs on the state corporations website in KS Im fIling complaint w/ state atty general on monday, i did find one that said BF labs at a different address and as far as I understand they cant advertise under a different name than their corporate registration.

Lets see where all this goes...

Georgie my boy, again,   Self dec. I spoke with your guy on firday, these devices operate at a COMBINED total of 10 or 60 GH/s I believe we are talking 16 engines @ 250mhz nominal (300mhz max)  The GIGAHASH speed has NOTHING (there is a propotionality to chip speed and hashes yes in theory) to do with the Mhz or Ghz, or RF leakage, if you file, let me know I'd LOVE to use that in my personal law suit against BFL. so the leakage is not coming from microwave range or any special protected ranges, also its NOT like an xbox controller as it contains a transmitters, (if these were wireless or self contained (LIKE the 600GH units that might be different), this is more or less akin to a USB wired video car or a math coprocessor.

Nail them by going to UL, and proving the device is no underwritten and is a fire hazard.

http://www.butterflylabs.com/contact/
Location map

Find us at
Address: 10770 El Monte, Leawood, KS 66211 United States of America
Voicemail: 1-800-809-MINE (6463)
Fax: 1-800-809-MINE (6463)
Skype: butterflylabs


Also here is some ammo for you: http://www.bbb.org/kansas-city/business-reviews/electronic-equipment-and-supplies-wholesale-and-manufacturers/bf-labs-inc-in-overland-park-ks-1000002011