Why people buy not profitable hardware?

[cczerouno]

I'm a Bitcoin noob, and I was digging ebay auctions (mainly EU).
I don't understand why ASICs sell at a price well over profitability.
I used this calculator: http://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/calculator

Each bid price always escalate, with tens of bidders. People currently ends buying Red-Fury 2.5 GH/s at 80 Euro, Bi-Fury 5 GH/s at 160 Euro, and so on. For example:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/Bi-Fury-BiFury-USB-Bitcoin-ASIC-Miner-bis-wahnsinnigen-5-GH-s-Sofort-Lieferung-/251434458313

Assume having already in hand 5 GH/s. With difficulty increment step of only 30%, zero electricity cost, zero pool fee, it will never gain more than 40 Euro maintaining current BTC/EUR exchange rate.

IMHO:
1. ASIC buyers feel BTC will skyrocket to more than 10,000 USD.
2. ASIC buyers mine some weeks, and then resell the hardware, so they hope to end with a profit from sell+mining-buy.
3. Buyers are antique collectors  

Or maybe there is something a noob can't understand.
Any hint?
Thanks,
Piero

[Meuh6879]

Well ... you don't understand the "value" of a community work (to stay alive a tool).

It's like you buy a gamer PC to play at game.
A noob don't understand why because he has bid a TV with PS4 game plateform.

P2P file sharing is like bitcoin mining philosophy ... you stay alive 1To of files in a 24h/24 PC desktop for just a few guy like you.
It's a community work.

---

I have not bid a 12GH/s miner (462 USD) to win 0,01 BTC every 5 days ... i have bid this to support the network.

[cczerouno]

Meuh, I'm sure there are some sentimental people out there, but I don't think the majority of ASIC buyers are philanthropists.

[Markov]

It might be because many people don't know where to find information and are a bit gullible. Many don't understand how much hashes you need to generate even a decent amount. I'm not saying everyone is like that but if you buy on eBay some ASIC then you obviously didn't do any research. I think it is wrong to profit from such people but that my tuppence.

[hopey]

I bought my 5GH/s asic miner some time ago. It has already paid itself couple times. I would have made more money by just buying the coins though. I actually guessed this might be the case when buying the miner.

The main reasons I bought it were:

- I liked the bitcoin idea very much and I wanted to support the community. It was same thing for me when p2p filesharing started.
- I just love the idea that I have my own money making machine. Black box that makes money. It is almost like owning sampo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampo


- Lastly this: "3. Buyers are antique collectors  Grin"

I want to be able to tell my kid someday that I was part of this movement. And to prove it I have my own miner

[5thStreetResearch]

Well ... you don't understand the "value" of a community work (to stay alive a tool).

It's like you buy a gamer PC to play at game.
A noob don't understand why because he has bid a TV with PS4 game plateform.

P2P file sharing is like bitcoin mining philosophy ... you stay alive 1To of files in a 24h/24 PC desktop for just a few guy like you.
It's a community work.

---

I have not bid a 12GH/s miner (462 USD) to win 0,01 BTC every 5 days ... i have bid this to support the network.

lol how many people do you really think are burning money for the sake of the community?

[fsparv]

Media hype, good old fashioned ego, and likely some multiple-account bid-up schemes is my guess. I hope there aren't a lot of folks buying to "support the community" as those folks are just getting themselves fleeced and making bitcoin less attractive to new comers and reducing the size of the community. I have not bought significant bit coin nor mining hardware because the former is clearly very risky, and the later is only possible at a guaranteed 50-80% loss given stable prices. I've seen a few rigs out there at the higher price ranges that are more like 25% guaranteed loss given stable prices.

The maximum intrinsic value of a miner should be considered as total lifetime bitcoins calculated by the miner before it becomes more expensive to run than the bitcoins it generates given stable prices. Considering anything other than stable prices is market speculation, which is more efficiently done by buying coins directly. Even the stable price assumption might be a speculation given the trend in the last 1.5 months.

The only good reason to buy a miner is to make a profit, or for entertainment. Bad reasons might include laundering money, or for market speculation. Buying the miner for speculation is particularly bad because it ties up your money in a non-liquid form that takes days to recover (resell on ebay) or months to convert to bitcoins (mining).

So Every week or so I check prices and someday when there are miners for sale at a price far enough below intrinsic value to account for the market risk and lack of liquidity I may buy one. I don't expect that to be soon, because there are still many fools out there who heard about it on CNN, and don't do the math, probably many of them are buying second or third miners at larger sizes convinced that the problem was they didn't "go big" enough...

I have noticed that usb miner prices are improving, the going rate for an ant miner worth 15 dollars is about 50, whereas a month ago a 333 usb miner was 60 and worth about $5-7 lifetime intrinsic value...

End analysis you are right, nobody buying miners is making money right now, only the people selling them. Folks who got on early pre-order probably made money, but with the present hype and no new round of (very risky) pre-orders for next gen tech, there's no money to be made, just entertainment to be had, which is why one of my spare computers is mining trivial amounts using it's graphics card at a loss... just for fun, at a small cost.

[cczerouno]

I agree with fsparv.
I think one can spend a couple of hundred bucks "as a game", or even for the sake of community, but who spend many thousands of dollars must see some profit in it.

I saw even more priced ebay bids than these:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/Bitcoin-Miner-Bitmain-Antminer-S1-180-GH-s-1-3-KnC-Jupiter-Standalone-ohne-USB-/251432818710
http://www.ebay.it/itm/Bitcoin-Miner-Bitmain-Antminer-S1-180-GH-s-1-3-KnC-Jupiter-Standalone-ohne-USB-/251432829377

Maybe they buy ASICs, mine some week, and then resell the items.
IMHO it's one of the many ways to make profit with BC.

[AmericanBit]

I agree with fsparv.
I think one can spend a couple of hundred bucks "as a game", or even for the sake of community, but who spend many thousands of dollars must see some profit in it.

I saw even more priced ebay bids than these:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/Bitcoin-Miner-Bitmain-Antminer-S1-180-GH-s-1-3-KnC-Jupiter-Standalone-ohne-USB-/251432818710
http://www.ebay.it/itm/Bitcoin-Miner-Bitmain-Antminer-S1-180-GH-s-1-3-KnC-Jupiter-Standalone-ohne-USB-/251432829377

Maybe they buy ASICs, mine some week, and then resell the items.
IMHO it's one of the many ways to make profit with BC.

Did you factor in that bitcoin isnt necessarily always the most profitable sha coin to mine, and there might be other sha coins that come out in the future like unobtanium?

[empoweoqwj]

Because they are eBayers.

[cdog]

People are bad at math. Like, really bad

[kokojie]

I'm a Bitcoin noob, and I was digging ebay auctions (mainly EU).
I don't understand why ASICs sell at a price well over profitability.
I used this calculator: http://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/calculator

Each bid price always escalate, with tens of bidders. People currently ends buying Red-Fury 2.5 GH/s at 80 Euro, Bi-Fury 5 GH/s at 160 Euro, and so on. For example:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/Bi-Fury-BiFury-USB-Bitcoin-ASIC-Miner-bis-wahnsinnigen-5-GH-s-Sofort-Lieferung-/251434458313

Assume having already in hand 5 GH/s. With difficulty increment step of only 30%, zero electricity cost, zero pool fee, it will never gain more than 40 Euro maintaining current BTC/EUR exchange rate.

IMHO:
1. ASIC buyers feel BTC will skyrocket to more than 10,000 USD.
2. ASIC buyers mine some weeks, and then resell the hardware, so they hope to end with a profit from sell+mining-buy.
3. Buyers are antique collectors  

Or maybe there is something a noob can't understand.
Any hint?
Thanks,
Piero

Difficulty increment of "only 30%"? why would you assume that? it's impossible to perpetually increase difficulty by 30%, in fact we may see significantly lower difficulty increases soon.

[empoweoqwj]

I'm a Bitcoin noob, and I was digging ebay auctions (mainly EU).
I don't understand why ASICs sell at a price well over profitability.
I used this calculator: http://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/calculator

Each bid price always escalate, with tens of bidders. People currently ends buying Red-Fury 2.5 GH/s at 80 Euro, Bi-Fury 5 GH/s at 160 Euro, and so on. For example:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/Bi-Fury-BiFury-USB-Bitcoin-ASIC-Miner-bis-wahnsinnigen-5-GH-s-Sofort-Lieferung-/251434458313

Assume having already in hand 5 GH/s. With difficulty increment step of only 30%, zero electricity cost, zero pool fee, it will never gain more than 40 Euro maintaining current BTC/EUR exchange rate.

IMHO:
1. ASIC buyers feel BTC will skyrocket to more than 10,000 USD.
2. ASIC buyers mine some weeks, and then resell the hardware, so they hope to end with a profit from sell+mining-buy.
3. Buyers are antique collectors  

Or maybe there is something a noob can't understand.
Any hint?
Thanks,
Piero

Difficulty increment of "only 30%"? why would you assume that? it's impossible to perpetually increase difficulty by 30%, in fact we may see significantly lower difficulty increases soon.

1) Why is it impossible? At least for the next year or more, 30% is easily attainable and IMHO, very likely.
2) Where's the evidence to suggest lower difficulty increase "soon"?

[kokojie]

I'm a Bitcoin noob, and I was digging ebay auctions (mainly EU).
I don't understand why ASICs sell at a price well over profitability.
I used this calculator: http://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/calculator

Each bid price always escalate, with tens of bidders. People currently ends buying Red-Fury 2.5 GH/s at 80 Euro, Bi-Fury 5 GH/s at 160 Euro, and so on. For example:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/Bi-Fury-BiFury-USB-Bitcoin-ASIC-Miner-bis-wahnsinnigen-5-GH-s-Sofort-Lieferung-/251434458313

Assume having already in hand 5 GH/s. With difficulty increment step of only 30%, zero electricity cost, zero pool fee, it will never gain more than 40 Euro maintaining current BTC/EUR exchange rate.

IMHO:
1. ASIC buyers feel BTC will skyrocket to more than 10,000 USD.
2. ASIC buyers mine some weeks, and then resell the hardware, so they hope to end with a profit from sell+mining-buy.
3. Buyers are antique collectors  

Or maybe there is something a noob can't understand.
Any hint?
Thanks,
Piero

Difficulty increment of "only 30%"? why would you assume that? it's impossible to perpetually increase difficulty by 30%, in fact we may see significantly lower difficulty increases soon.

1) Why is it impossible? At least for the next year or more, 30% is easily attainable and IMHO, very likely.
2) Where's the evidence to suggest lower difficulty increase "soon"?

We are already nearly at the maximum performance of the asic hardware development, 20nm is pretty cutting edge. There can be no more significant improvements after this point.

If we increase by 30% all year, at the end of the year, a 3000GH asic miner, will be making $20 a month at current BTC prices. It won't be enough to cover electricity.

Also, last 3 diff increases were:

Jan 24 2014    2,193,847,870    22.59%    15,704,175 GH/s
Jan 13 2014    1,789,546,951    26.16%    12,810,076 GH/s
Jan 02 2014    1,418,481,395    20.12%    10,153,885 GH/s

In fact, I think we may NEVER see a 30% diff increase again.

[empoweoqwj]

I'm a Bitcoin noob, and I was digging ebay auctions (mainly EU).
I don't understand why ASICs sell at a price well over profitability.
I used this calculator: http://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/calculator

Each bid price always escalate, with tens of bidders. People currently ends buying Red-Fury 2.5 GH/s at 80 Euro, Bi-Fury 5 GH/s at 160 Euro, and so on. For example:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/Bi-Fury-BiFury-USB-Bitcoin-ASIC-Miner-bis-wahnsinnigen-5-GH-s-Sofort-Lieferung-/251434458313

Assume having already in hand 5 GH/s. With difficulty increment step of only 30%, zero electricity cost, zero pool fee, it will never gain more than 40 Euro maintaining current BTC/EUR exchange rate.

IMHO:
1. ASIC buyers feel BTC will skyrocket to more than 10,000 USD.
2. ASIC buyers mine some weeks, and then resell the hardware, so they hope to end with a profit from sell+mining-buy.
3. Buyers are antique collectors  

Or maybe there is something a noob can't understand.
Any hint?
Thanks,
Piero

Difficulty increment of "only 30%"? why would you assume that? it's impossible to perpetually increase difficulty by 30%, in fact we may see significantly lower difficulty increases soon.

1) Why is it impossible? At least for the next year or more, 30% is easily attainable and IMHO, very likely.
2) Where's the evidence to suggest lower difficulty increase "soon"?

We are already nearly at the maximum performance of the asic hardware development, 20nm is pretty cutting edge. There can be no more significant improvements after this point.

If we increase by 30% all year, at the end of the year, a 3000GH asic miner, will be making $20 a month at current BTC prices. It won't be enough to cover electricity.

Also, last 3 diff increases were:

Jan 24 2014    2,193,847,870    22.59%    15,704,175 GH/s
Jan 13 2014    1,789,546,951    26.16%    12,810,076 GH/s
Jan 02 2014    1,418,481,395    20.12%    10,153,885 GH/s

In fact, I think we may NEVER see a 30% diff increase again.

1) Lots of people don't pay electricity
2) Whilst faster machines *might* be more difficult to make in the future, and that's a very big *might*, people can always make lots more chips with current technology
3) Mining equipment is going to come out that is a lot more energy efficient than current gen.

If you learn one thing from technology, is that it never stands still. There are always innovations when there is money to be made and people competing for that money.

[BTCisthefuture]

Simply put , it comes down to lack of knowledge and understanding.

If you have children or if you can remember back to your childhood I'm sure we've all experienced situations where a kid wants something thats "new and cool" and the parent accidently buys the wrong thing.  The intentions are right but they simply arent that educated on that topic or item.

I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to minning.... especially with all the mainstream press coverage it's gotten. It's quite easy to understand how someone can think simply buying a minning rig will make them profits without knowing to figure out the math behind it first.

[Bobsurplus]

Same reason why people buy a 10BTC Cassicus coin for 30+BTC


Because there crazy.

[kokojie]

1) Lots of people don't pay electricity
2) Whilst faster machines *might* be more difficult to make in the future, and that's a very big *might*, people can always make lots more chips with current technology
3) Mining equipment is going to come out that is a lot more energy efficient than current gen.

If you learn one thing from technology, is that it never stands still. There are always innovations when there is money to be made and people competing for that money.

1. Somebody always pay electricity, it maybe included in your rent (ur still paying for it), or ur leeching off your parent/employer, but somebody always pays. There's no such thing as free electricity.

2. Yes you can make more chips, but who will buy them if the profit can not even cover electricity?

3. no, there will be equipment that is slightly more energy efficient than current gen, but not "a lot more". We are already at 22nm, there can be no more significant improvements, or do you think asic manufacturers will develop better manufacturing than Intel? because intel CPU from 3 years ago (for example i7-2600k, has nearly identical performance as current gen equivalent i7-4770k, ok 4770k is slightly better, by like 3%)

[Sonny]

1) Lots of people don't pay electricity
2) Whilst faster machines *might* be more difficult to make in the future, and that's a very big *might*, people can always make lots more chips with current technology
3) Mining equipment is going to come out that is a lot more energy efficient than current gen.

If you learn one thing from technology, is that it never stands still. There are always innovations when there is money to be made and people competing for that money.

1. Somebody always pay electricity, it maybe included in your rent (ur still paying for it), or ur leeching off your parent/employer, but somebody always pays. There's no such thing as free electricity.

I don't think people care about the electricity bills of their boss or their university.
Yes, someone has to pay the bill, but as long as it is not the miner himself, he don't really care.

[IamCANADIAN013]

I bought into some of the 333 mh/z cards to learn.  I knew I wasn't going to make money off them, but its been a worth while learning experience.

Then there are some that only see dollar signs without doing the math.