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Author Topic: Happy free money day!  (Read 2965 times)
hugolp
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September 17, 2011, 07:50:22 AM
 #21

Because my worldview demands more equitable treatment for all, not just the monied classes.

Honestly, what Ive read from you would either benefit the rich people or make everybody poor. But lets assume for a moment that you dont do it because you are a heartless agressive bastard, lets assume you have been fooled.

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Some of the most acerbic pricks out there are unbelievably compassionate once you scratch the surface. Smiley It's the shell you build up being a compassionate person in a shitty consumerist society where the only thing that ever matters is money.

And now cheap philosphy...

Listen its very selfish from your part to not dedicate a bit of time to understand the basics of how this world works and just jump onto the first philosophy that promises you everything because it makes you feel good. You should stop being so selfish, think about your fellow men and learn a couple of things.
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rainingbitcoins
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September 17, 2011, 08:34:23 AM
 #22

Honestly, what Ive read from you would either benefit the rich people or make everybody poor. But lets assume for a moment that you dont do it because you are a heartless agressive bastard, lets assume you have been fooled.

Here's a fun fact: back in the '70s, American CEOs made 20-30 times more money than their average employee. Nowadays, they make 500 times what their employees make. Corporate profits went up 140% in the last 30 years but real wages have actually gone down 2% for regular workers. Executive salaries have soared exponentially. The rich are stealing our First World way of life away from us, and you think I'm the one who wants to make everyone poor? You think I'm the one who's aggressive and heartless? What the fuck is wrong with you?

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Listen its very selfish from your part to not dedicate a bit of time to understand the basics of how this world works and just jump onto the first philosophy that promises you everything because it makes you feel good. You should stop being so selfish, think about your fellow men and learn a couple of things.

I'm gonna go ahead and say that you're the one who needs to figure out how fucked-up this world is, and I'll say the same for anyone who still believes in the benevolent power of fairy-tale capitalism.

And when you, who will never ever ever bring up the plight of the poor, responds to one of my posts about exactly that with "You should stop being so selfish, think about your fellow men", like, I mean, how do you even respond to that? Seriously, what the fuck?
Jeremy West spendbitcoins.com
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September 17, 2011, 09:03:50 AM
 #23

Here's a fun fact: back in the '70s, American CEOs made 20-30 times more money than their average employee. Nowadays, they make 500 times what their employees make. Corporate profits went up 140% in the last 30 years but real wages have actually gone down 2% for regular workers. Executive salaries have soared exponentially. The rich are stealing our First World way of life away from us, and you think I'm the one who wants to make everyone poor?

Here's a fun fact: Since the 70s, the US has become far more corporatist at the expense of true free markets. Regulations (lobbied for by the very corporations which they supposedly keep in line) which cost can easily be absorbed by the large multi-national rich corporations have been piled on and piled on and have stopped new competitors from coming into those markets to knock those super rich off their pedestals and spread the wealth around a bit (in a free-market kind of way, rewarding hard-working, innovative people rather than just rewarding politicians' friends and punishing their enemies).

Fun fact. Wink

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September 17, 2011, 09:22:19 AM
 #24

And here's another fact: when those industries were even less regulated, they were even MORE brutal. How do you think all of those regulations and labor laws came about in the first place? You had 9-year-olds working in mines and dying of black lung by the time they hit 30!

And arguing that business corrupts politicians sounds like just another reason that capitalism cannot be tamed, and will always revert to a system where most of the people get screwed for the benefit of a lucky rich few. Thanks for making that point for me.

You seriously think that regulations are the primary barrier of entry that keeps you or me from building a billion-dollar factory or an interstate communications system? I could point out all of the examples of different businesses trending towards monopoly over and over and over, stopped only by anti-trust regulations, but, again, you'd try to find a way to blame the government for that, too. Or claim the market wasn't free enough.

Because it's never capital's fault. There was always some tiny regulation, that were it absent, would make busineses give their employees great benefits and pay instead of treating them like dogs in your mind. That's a fantasy so ridiculous that it still shocks me to hear people spout it. If it weren't a fantasy, we would have seen more generosity from business in the times of fewer regulations. Instead, we see only increased brutality and exploitation.  I can point you to the last 30 years of deregulation of half the damn industries in the U.S. and how the common worker has suffered as a result, and you'll somehow see that as an indictment of the fact that there are any regulations at all.  At a certain point, it just gets delusional.
hugolp
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September 17, 2011, 09:37:36 AM
 #25

Honestly, what Ive read from you would either benefit the rich people or make everybody poor. But lets assume for a moment that you dont do it because you are a heartless agressive bastard, lets assume you have been fooled.

Here's a fun fact: back in the '70s, American CEOs made 20-30 times more money than their average employee. Nowadays, they make 500 times what their employees make. Corporate profits went up 140% in the last 30 years but real wages have actually gone down 2% for regular workers. Executive salaries have soared exponentially. The rich are stealing our First World way of life away from us, and you think I'm the one who wants to make everyone poor? You think I'm the one who's aggressive and heartless? What the fuck is wrong with you?

Quote
Listen its very selfish from your part to not dedicate a bit of time to understand the basics of how this world works and just jump onto the first philosophy that promises you everything because it makes you feel good. You should stop being so selfish, think about your fellow men and learn a couple of things.

I'm gonna go ahead and say that you're the one who needs to figure out how fucked-up this world is, and I'll say the same for anyone who still believes in the benevolent power of fairy-tale capitalism.

And when you, who will never ever ever bring up the plight of the poor, responds to one of my posts about exactly that with "You should stop being so selfish, think about your fellow men", like, I mean, how do you even respond to that? Seriously, what the fuck?

Im not capitalist. Im anticapitalist. Ive said it repeteadly in this forum. It shows how shallow you are.

You are a seflish person that will believe whatever makes you feel good at the expense of the others.
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September 17, 2011, 09:48:15 AM
 #26

Im not capitalist. Im anticapitalist. Ive said it repeteadly in this forum. It shows how shallow you are.

You are a seflish person that will believe whatever makes you feel good at the expense of the others.

Well, see the thing is: I don't know what the fuck you are because all you've been doing is ignoring all of my arguments and making personal attacks against me.  You could just tell me what you are, but you haven't. You really haven't even made a single coherent argument in this thread that isn't some variation of "you're selfish/aggressive/mean/blahblahblah".

When I ask why you'd respond to a post about giving the poor equal opportunities by calling me selfish, your response is simply to call me selfish again!

I'm sorry that I don't keep enough track of the political opinions of every member of the Bitcoin forums to remember them all on sight, and that I assumed the moderator of a forum with an extremely heavy libertarian slant would be libertarian himself. But I guess not having an encylopedic knowledge of your political beliefs that you haven't shared with me makes me shallow in the same way that caring about the poor makes me selfish.
hugolp
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September 17, 2011, 10:35:56 AM
 #27

Im not capitalist. Im anticapitalist. Ive said it repeteadly in this forum. It shows how shallow you are.

You are a seflish person that will believe whatever makes you feel good at the expense of the others.

Well, see the thing is: I don't know what the fuck you are because all you've been doing is ignoring all of my arguments and making personal attacks against me.  You could just tell me what you are, but you haven't. You really haven't even made a single coherent argument in this thread that isn't some variation of "you're selfish/aggressive/mean/blahblahblah".

When I ask why you'd respond to a post about giving the poor equal opportunities by calling me selfish, your response is simply to call me selfish again!

I'm sorry that I don't keep enough track of the political opinions of every member of the Bitcoin forums to remember them all on sight, and that I assumed the moderator of a forum with an extremely heavy libertarian slant would be libertarian himself. But I guess not having an encylopedic knowledge of your political beliefs that you haven't shared with me makes me shallow in the same way that caring about the poor makes me selfish.

I am a libertarian. And I have answered about you caring for the poor. Ive told you that what you have said in this forum benefits the rich or makes everybody poor. Thats why you are a selfish person, because you dont care about the real consquences of what your preach, you only care about how the ideas make you feel.
rainingbitcoins
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September 17, 2011, 10:54:57 AM
 #28

I am a libertarian. And I have answered about you caring for the poor. Ive told you that what you have said in this forum benefits the rich or makes everybody poor. Thats why you are a selfish person, because you dont care about the real consquences of what your preach, you only care about how the ideas make you feel.

Well, first of all, I'm still trying to figure out how someone can be anti-capitalist, but favor a world in which government is so weakened that businesses will inevitably become the sole power in society (as if they aren't most of the way there already).

Second, you haven't told me how the things I advocate will only benefit the rich or make everyone poor. What do you base that on? The history of socialist countries that were dirt poor before socialism and are still dirt poor afterwards? That hardly seems fair.

Or we could look at the situation of richer Western European countries with a lot of regulation and mildly socialist (social democracy) political climates. The workers there get several weeks of paid vacation a year along with health care for everyone. They may pay slightly more in taxes, but they also don't have to deal with a $600 a month health insurance bill and massive deductibles on top of it. CEO salaries are also much closer to worker salaries (on the order of 10-20x instead of our 500x). I look at this and I see more equality and an objectively far better situation for workers. What do you see?

You accuse me of only caring about how the ideas make me feel, yet I am the one who's been posting statistics and reasoned arguments in this thread and you're the one who's spent most of it calling me a meanie-bobeenie. Again I have to ask: what the fuck?
hugolp
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September 18, 2011, 12:11:03 PM
 #29

You guys are all the same, like clones. The corporatists know how to indoctrinate:

Well, first of all, I'm still trying to figure out how someone can be anti-capitalist, but favor a world in which government is so weakened that businesses will inevitably become the sole power in society (as if they aren't most of the way there already).

Big business become big and powerfull to the point of abuse because of big government. Regulations protect big business and free them from competition allowing them to abuse their costumers. Social-democracy is nothing more than corporatism with nice words.

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Second, you haven't told me how the things I advocate will only benefit the rich or make everyone poor. What do you base that on?

See above.

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The history of socialist countries that were dirt poor before socialism and are still dirt poor afterwards? That hardly seems fair.

You are missing the new rich (and small) rich class that appeared, but that was not the point. It was for what I said above.

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Or we could look at the situation of richer Western European countries with a lot of regulation and mildly socialist (social democracy) political climates. The workers there get several weeks of paid vacation a year along with health care for everyone. They may pay slightly more in taxes, but they also don't have to deal with a $600 a month health insurance bill and massive deductibles on top of it. CEO salaries are also much closer to worker salaries (on the order of 10-20x instead of our 500x). I look at this and I see more equality and an objectively far better situation for workers. What do you see?

That you should come to live here in Europe and check for yourself instead of believing the rosy distorted image that some people promote and you buy without even checking. Im too tired of correcting mistakes so just some points:

- The USA had consistenly higher wages than the European countries. As the USA has been abandoning a more free market system and has become more a social-democracy, the wages in the USA have become worse and the difference with Europe has reduced. Also the difference between rich and poor has increased.

- The nordic countries had the social-democrats in the government during the 80's and their economies suffered, went into crisis, etc... So they started voting the conservatives who liberalized the market, etc... and their economies improved. In fact, the european nordic countries are used as example of neo-liberal policies working.

- Health care is not government run in all Europe. In fact a lot of european countries have renounced to government health and now implement some sort of mandated private insurance system, for example Germany or severeal nordic countries. In contrast, countries like England, Spain or Greece still have government run health care systems.

Etc...

I also dont continue because you are totally indoctrinated and dont give a fuck so facts wont work on you.

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You accuse me of only caring about how the ideas make me feel, yet I am the one who's been posting statistics and reasoned arguments in this thread and you're the one who's spent most of it calling me a meanie-bobeenie. Again I have to ask: what the fuck?

Yes, you are very selfish, because you dont give a fuck about the rest and study what is really good for society. You just jump into the first pseudo-philosophy that promises a lot and makes you feel good. Thats all you care about.
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September 20, 2011, 03:54:25 AM
 #30

Big business become big and powerfull to the point of abuse because of big government. Regulations protect big business and free them from competition allowing them to abuse their costumers.

Like I said, if this were the case, we'd see better treatment of employees in times of fewer regulations. Instead we see just the opposite. Please explain why that is.

In addition, you offer no actual mechanism to keep businesses in check - just an astonishingly naive assumption that the free market will wave a magic wand and everything will work out for the best. I've asked libertarians on this forum several times what keeps businesses whose sole purpose is making money from exploiting people to make money in your system, and the only answers I ever get have to do with the magic forces of the free market that are apparently so powerful and resilient that they all collapse into dust as soon as you introduce one tiny regulation.

Or I get the old canard about how informed customers will not shop at businesses that do bad things, as if that's ever worked out in the past. And, of course, when I point that out, I get told that that was somehow government's fault, too. Not sure how, exactly. But if everything is the government's fault and that falls under everything, then logically the government did it.

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Yes, you are very selfish, because you dont give a fuck about the rest and study what is really good for society. You just jump into the first pseudo-philosophy that promises a lot and makes you feel good. Thats all you care about.

Hearing a libertarian say this makes me laugh out loud IRL. The ideas that largely shaped the history of the 20th century are pseudo-philosophies, while your crazy GOVERNMENT-IS-THE-BOOGEYMAN-AND-RESPONSIBLE-FOR-LITERALLY-ANYTHING-BAD-YOU-CAN-THINK-OF shtick can't even find a morsel of support in the academic world, let alone the real one. It's telling that it's getting more popular only now that America is collectively freaking out and trying to find any way it can think of to get out of its problems that still involves sucking off its business heroes.
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September 20, 2011, 03:58:20 AM
 #31

Oh yeah, and here's a great example of your European privitization:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v33/n09/james-meek/in-the-sorting-office

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‘Today’s Wednesday, yeah?’ he said. ‘On Wednesday, we have at least six people coming to the door, all bringing some mail. First was the local paper. Then the other local paper. Then the postman comes. Three more will come later. I think that’s the basic defect of post office privatisation. What used to be done by one man is now done by six. They’re all underpaid, and the delivery hasn’t improved. It used to come in the morning, and now I’m still waiting.’
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September 20, 2011, 04:05:10 AM
 #32

A government sub-contracting work isn't a example of market desire performing by its own accord. In the case of the privatized postal services, each entity is highly dependent on the provisioning by the government in addition to government subsidies as opposed to services that form and sustain solely on meeting consumer desires.
rainingbitcoins
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September 20, 2011, 04:11:13 AM
 #33

Thanks Atlas. I was hoping for a different answer than the last 40 million times, but I see you're going with "it's the government's fault" again. Libertarians are the football coaches who run the ball up the middle on 3 and 10 because it's the only play they know.
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September 20, 2011, 04:13:49 AM
 #34

I may be blaming the government but it's a moot point. The fact is any incentive for a business to remain viable through profits and efficiency is destroyed when its success is guaranteed and/or limited by a government.
rainingbitcoins
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September 20, 2011, 04:19:46 AM
 #35

Wait, what the hell is WooLong financial? You're founding another business?
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September 20, 2011, 04:21:56 AM
 #36

No, actually. This is my first real venture that will be fully revealed all in good time.

Everything else was small projects and mere ideas. It seems my demeanor implies otherwise.
rainingbitcoins
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September 20, 2011, 04:30:06 AM
 #37

You should give it a good Texas name instead of Woolong Financial. Like "Alamo-st Wealthy" or "Holy Fuck It Takes 12 Hours to Drive Across This Shitty State Financial Services". Is it BTC-related?
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September 20, 2011, 04:33:38 AM
 #38

Heh, I like the cut of your jib.

It's centered around Bitcoin, very much so.
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