What is your answer to "Bitcoin is a Ponzi Scheme" ?

[Tzupy]

It's not a ponzi scheme per se, but it can still turn out to be a scam if satoshi wants anything for his 2 million bitcoins.

It's a satoshi scheme.

Very good observation. Maybe in Wikipedia someone should start a new article on this 'Satoshi scheme'.

[600watt]

You are applying it directly to the definition of maybe a wikipedia on pyramid, you take that definition as if it's written in scripture and holy. Bitcoin does not have to be a business model to be a pyramid, no one has to promise payments or services for it to be a pyramid, you couldn't possibly know if Bitcoin is ultimately unsustainable or not. If you for one second took away your biased opinion, and actually read what i wrote earlier you would understand, you are just another cog in the wheel, or should i say block in the pyramid (lol). If it was this easy to conquer the world, because of the lack of IQ points from the masses, i'm going to gladly join the other side and sharpen the axe. Where do i sign up?

No, I do not take that definition as if it is holy. Yet, definitions are important because words are how we interact with other people. If I'm talking about a furry, four legged animal, and you are thinking cat, when I actually mean dog, we are going to have a hard time seeing eye to eye.

We can use investopedia's definition if you wish:

A pyramid scheme is a fraudulent investing plan that has unfortunately cost many people worldwide their hard-earned savings. The concept behind the pyramid scheme is simple and should be easy to identify; however, it is often presented to potential investors in a disguised or slightly altered form. For this reason, it is important to not only understand how pyramid schemes work, but also to be familiar with the many different shapes and sizes they can take.

The Scheme
As its name indicates, the pyramid scheme is structured like a pyramid. It starts with one person - the initial recruiter - who is on top, at the apex of the pyramid. This person recruits a second person, who is required to "invest" $100 which is paid to the initial recruiter. In order to make his or her money back, the new recruit must recruit more people under him or her, each of whom will also have to invest $100. If the recruit gets 10 more people to invest, this person will make $900 with just a $100 investment.

The 10 new people become recruiters and each one is in turn required to enlist an additional 10 people, resulting in a total of 100 more people. Each of those 100 new recruits is also obligated to pay $100 to the person who recruited him or her; recruiters get a profit of all of the money received minus the initial $100 paid to the person who recruited them. The process continues until the base of the pyramid is no longer strong enough to support the upper structure (meaning there are no more recruits).

The differences between that and Bitcoin are glaring. Bitcoin is not an investment, it's a digital currency. Bitcoin is not fraudulent, there is nothing hidden from the users, everything is open and available for everyone to see.

Bitcoins do have an exchange rate, and I can see how an increasing exchange rate would lead some people to think that it's all a scheme to make the early adopters rich, yet it doesn't play out like a pyramid scheme at all. Bitcoins are bought and sold at market value. If you purchase a bitcoin, there is no promise or guarantee that you are going to be able to sell it for more in the future. Many, many people have sold their bitcoins for less than what they paid for them. There is also the scenario where an individual purchases a bitcoin, and never sells it for fiat. They've moved from one type of money to another. They will never receive any fiat from later investors. Bitcoin can and will continue to function even if no new people get involved from this point forward.

Obviously, I can point out these differences until I am blue in the face. We can get deeper and deeper into details, basically wasting a lot of time. It's clear that you are going to ignore these glaring differences and shrug off these fine details because you've already painted the picture in your mind. You are focusing on the aspects of Bitcoin that look like an investment and ignoring the aspects of bitcoin that look like an asset and a value transfer network.

Ultimately, a Ponzi/pyramid scheme is based on a fraudulent investment. Those involved never receive any product or service. Early investors get returns paid out from the investments of later investors.

There is no fraud with Bitcoin. When you buy a bitcoin, you receive a new form of digital currency, which has been proven to function exactly as described in the white paper. I can, right now, send value across the world, using bitcoins (the distributed decentralized currency and the value transfer network) without asking for help from a middleman or permission from an authority. There is an actual use case, which is being used everyday by people around the world.

I'm finished with this thread. It's up to an individual to decide for themselves. You are either stuck in the box or you aren't. I will continue using Bitcoin to improve the way I am able to store and transfer value. The rest of the world can stretch definitions of words until chimpanzees turn into elephants for all I care.

very good post. that should do it.
ponzi schemes collapse when no new money gets in. when no one buys btc, price goes sideways and does not collapse.

the fairy tale of the bitcoin ponzi made to the centralbanks:
http://www.coindesk.com/estonian-central-bank-warns-bitcoin-ponzi-scheme/

i have a hard time to believe those guys don´t know the difference. they must really hate/fear bitcoin to roll out this obvious crap.

[Holliday]

The satoshi deserves this and that argument is hogwash.

Bitcoin, even if it fails tomorrow, revolutionized the way we store and transfer value. Money will never be the same.

I think a large fortune for giving this to the world is not too much to ask.

The thing is, our opinions don't really matter all that much. Bitcoin has value and he has a whole lot of them.

[oxfardk]

Satoshi was arrested, and never seen again. That alone should tell you if it's a ponzi scheme. >_>

what is the source?

just thanks him to spread whatever because it's probably a FUD

[Anon136]

bitcoin is a scheme, but its an open source scheme and ponzi schemes require secrecy.

[chessnut]

if you know about bitcoin, you know it's not a ponzi scheme. If they call it a ponzi scheme then they must be ignorant. How can one argue with an ignorant person? I would love to have a witty answer but it simply doesn't work no matter how valid it is.
I reserve ad hominem for all these special people.

[windjc]

"What is your answer to "Bitcoin is a Ponzi Scheme" ? "

Answer: Scoreboard.

[zerk89]

Lol at the ignorant kids on this forum. Please rename the domain to highschoolbitcoincirclejerk.com,

[chessnut]

Lol at the ignorant kids on this forum. Please rename the domain to highschoolbitcoincirclejerk.com,

you're not gonna make friends with anybody talking like that.
if you got nothing to say just say nothing.

[TERA]

[chessnut]

does this mean......... Bitcoin is gonna go up forever??!

[zerk89]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Sierpinski_zoom_2.gif

does this mean......... Bitcoin is gonna go up forever??!

Yes, too the moon. Until it eats up every single fiat dollar, every single asset, in every country. Then it becomes a global currency. If not then it will collapse at some point. The dollar was a ponzi, look at the US dollar bill. Tell me what do you see?

[JimboToronto]

does this mean......... Bitcoin is gonna go up forever??!

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmoid_function

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHUPPYzzZrI

Just for a number of more years.

[600watt]

that is a nice visualization of what you percieve when you look deeper into the new technical possibilities of the bitcoin protocol ..

[porcupine87]

The coins they bought at a $1 or even less are now worth over $800.

Well, yes.

Yes, I bought 10 000btc for $100 (1Cent each). When the price was at 1$ people called it Ponzi Scheme and it was. I got scared that more and more people would find out. So I sold all for 11 000$. Nice profit, 11 000%.

But no police caught me and the buyer of my bitcoins got scammed really hard. Because he was so stupid. Hahaha

[DieJohnny]

Other people call Bitcoin a "Pyramid bubble"


Wikipedia
A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from existing capital or new capital paid by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. The perpetuation of the high returns requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors to sustain the scheme.[1]

When a Ponzi scheme is not stopped by the authorities, it sooner or later falls apart for one of the following reasons:[1]
The promoter vanishes.

Satoshi Nakamoto vanished

The differences between a Ponzi scheme and a legitimate business are actually more subtle than people realize. When a public company makes enormous profits and those profits are not invested in the infrastructure, financial responsiblities, or growth needs of a business then that business collapses. We don't call those types of businesses Ponzi schemes but in fact they are no different.

The simplest and most obvious Ponzi schemes are when the owner of the funds makes zero attempt to actually manage the funds in a legitimate fashion, he spends the money on what he wants. These type of Ponzi schemes always collapse when the investors ask for their deposits back and a run on the fake bank ensues, exposing the scheme.

Bitcoin is an investment only supported by 1) actual usage of the coin as a transaction medium and store of value 2) investor confidence that the controls in place can secure that value

Both of these attributes are almost non-existent in any Ponzi scheme. #2 for a little while, but there is no way for Ponzi sheme's to recover if #2 ever collapses.

Bitcoin has one other magic bullet up its sleeve that makes it almost eternal, barring a world ban and barring world war, that magic bullet is that regardless of the value you place on Bitcoin, you can always buy it and sell it for the current market price. Ponzi shemes don't have this eternal nature and it is what makes Nokamoto's disappearance irrelevant. He can sell all of his bitcoins if he wants, so can the FBI. The price may go down to 10 dollars, but the market will still exist, as will the users and the people that are now willing to buy in at $10.

You might better describe Bitcoin as perpetual bubble wave whose end of days is correlated to the end of humanity.

[piramida]

Lol at the ignorant kids on this forum. Please rename the domain to highschoolbitcoincirclejerk.com,

more like bitcoinmillionaireswhofinditamusingtotalktodummies.com

[JimboToronto]

Lol at the ignorant kids on this forum. Please rename the domain to highschoolbitcoincirclejerk.com,

more like bitcoinmillionaireswhofinditamusingtotalktodummies.com

 

[600watt]

The coins they bought at a $1 or even less are now worth over $800.

Well, yes.

Yes, I bought 10 000btc for $100 (1Cent each). When the price was at 1$ people called it Ponzi Scheme and it was. I got scared that more and more people would find out. So I sold all for 11 000$. Nice profit, 11 000%.

But no police caught me and the buyer of my bitcoins got scammed really hard. Because he was so stupid. Hahaha

wow. 10k btc. 

[ElectricMucus]

The satoshi deserves this and that argument is hogwash.

Bitcoin, even if it fails tomorrow, revolutionized the way we store and transfer value. Money will never be the same.

I think a large fortune for giving this to the world is not too much to ask.

The thing is, our opinions don't really matter all that much. Bitcoin has value and he has a whole lot of them.

I don't see any revolutionary changes. The only thing is some people, especially satoshi have revolutionary capital gains... on paper.

Revolutionary would be to see the level of economic growth happening which is implied by it's price. A revolutionary currency could for example provide a closed loop economy instantly, or have each unit correspond to the same amount of value every time, or....