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Author Topic: I am selling some bitcoins on eBay and accepting PayPal...  (Read 2352 times)
casascius
Mike Caldwell
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September 18, 2011, 01:31:58 AM
 #1

... and am curious how long it will take for me to get burned by eBay or PayPal, or if I will at all.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170694965429?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1562.l2649

I'm selling physical bitcoins, insisting that I will only ship using a tracked method to a PayPal-confirmed address.  That, in theory, should be satisfactory, because it should be no different than selling gold coins.  But I will certainly leave an update if I happen to run into any roadblocks.

I don't ordinarily sell physical bitcoins for USD (I prefer to just accept bitcoins, which takes the exchange rate out of the equation).  It is also unfortunate that I must charge more to sell them on eBay with PayPal, just so I can cover their fees.  Wish me luck.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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September 18, 2011, 01:52:14 AM
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How unfortunate that the bitcards from 'global standard bank' show up prominently as an ebay 'suggestion' on your link.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/50-Bitcoin-BitCard-Digital-Currency-/120780930821?_trksid=p4340.m263#ht_500wt_1413

These guys: http://globalstandardbank.com/  look mighty suspicious to me.

These so-called bitcards can supposedly be 'converted back into digital form', but I suspect that the private key is not actually in the card and it relies on their database and website to convert.  That's if it's not an outright scam.  I haven't seen a presence from 'global standard bank' in the forums.

(edit: also - the 'activate' & 'authenticate' links on their website don't seem to work)

Good luck with the ebaying Casascius...  I hope people can recognise the value of legitimate BTC product such as your coins and bitbills compared to questionable things like the bitcards above.



@electricwings   BM-GtyD5exuDJ2kvEbr41XchkC8x9hPxdFd
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September 18, 2011, 02:28:47 AM
 #3

I suspect they're not selling much - they have no recent feedback (their feedback score consists of stuff from 2006 and says things like "love the book" etc.)... Part of it could be that 50 BTC costs $600, well over double its current value...

If they turn out to be for real, I can't imagine them being all that bad... if their address is correct, they're within reach of many of us, and their product would be no different than "Mt. Gox codes".  In the US you cannot use the word "bank" in your business unless you are a federally recognized bank... I wonder what the rule is in Canada.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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September 18, 2011, 03:07:14 AM
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Wow, $7.50/coin is a bit steep.
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September 18, 2011, 03:33:18 AM
 #5

Why didn't I think of selling on ebay earlier?
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l2736&_nkw=bitcoin
These auctions have time limits set to a week or so.  10 bitcoins are selling for $73, 100 for $610, 5 for $40 (reminder: these bids are BINDING)... the only downside is Paypal's disapproval of bitcoin.

(BFL)^2 < 0
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September 18, 2011, 04:05:41 AM
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paypal officially doesn't allow any digital currency trading you will get ripped eventually either by them seizing your account or a ripper on the site. if you have a paypal account w/a payoneer card you can withdraw from ATM it'd be safer, since if weakpal is connected to your bank account they can just reach in there and do bad things
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September 18, 2011, 04:24:38 AM
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These guys: http://globalstandardbank.com/  look mighty suspicious to me.

These so-called bitcards can supposedly be 'converted back into digital form', but I suspect that the private key is not actually in the card and it relies on their database and website to convert.  That's if it's not an outright scam.  I haven't seen a presence from 'global standard bank' in the forums.
They have been around since at least July and a lot of people thought it seemed 'off' back then, the cards are a newer development though. If only their 'buy' price of $10.XX applied to regular garden variety bitcoins and not just to their fancy cards you could make a killing buying them off other exchanges to sell to them.

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casascius
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September 18, 2011, 05:04:16 AM
 #8

I'm really interested to know if they'd approve of physical coins.  If they ask me to stop selling them, I will politely comply.

I looked in their list of prohibited items.  One thing that's noteworthy is you're allowed to sell gift cards - up to a fairly small amount - but no "electronic delivery" gift cards.  And you're only allowed to have one listing at a time.  By delivering physical coins, I have definitely hopped over the fence, at least to the extent this rule applies.  I don't see a separate section for "virtual currency" so I assume it will probably be not much different than selling a gift card.  Besides, most people buy this coin as a collector's item, not as a way of acquiring virtual currency.

eBay certainly isn't the most economical way to sell.  Just to list 10 physical bitcoins at $83 (incl. shipping), I was charged just over $10 with eBay and PayPal fees combined.  If that person had bought them on my website, they would have paid 13.50 BTC (incl. shipping).  Keep in mind that this is a physical collectible coin, not just digital BTC, so a premium above the trading price is reasonable.  That's equivalent to about $65 at the current market rate.  I collect just under $73, but I am also exposed to a likely possibility that BTC goes up and I have to sell on eBay at a below-market rate.  So after eBay takes its cut, I am not much ahead.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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September 18, 2011, 06:01:07 AM
 #9

So after eBay takes its cut, I am not much ahead.

It will pale in comparison to the losses you are going to experience once the charge backs by the scammers start to happen.. 

If the seller is able to prove he shipped a physical item via a USPS tracking number, will paypal not side with the seller on a dispute?   However on a digital-only transfer of bitcoins, I would expect paypal to side with the buyer

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September 18, 2011, 06:08:31 AM
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Between the scammers, chargebacks, and ebay/paypal terms, it's honestly not worth it lol.
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September 18, 2011, 06:32:53 AM
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So after eBay takes its cut, I am not much ahead.

It will pale in comparison to the losses you are going to experience once the charge backs by the scammers start to happen.. 

If the seller is able to prove he shipped a physical item via a USPS tracking number, will paypal not side with the seller on a dispute?   However on a digital-only transfer of bitcoins, I would expect paypal to side with the buyer

From my recent experience with PP they will side with the scammer almost every time out of the ten or so that did me one was rejected. What is guaranteed to happen is as soon as claim is filed the money comes out of your PP account till they decide if the scammers claim is valid with the most common claim being my account was hacked and I did not purchase the item this one gets approved by PP every time, again in my experience with it others may have a happier one than I had but I doubt it.

were you shipping a physical item and providing ebay/paypal with the tracking number?  or were you sending bitcoins digitally?

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September 18, 2011, 06:34:46 AM
 #12

A real physical bitcoin! Congrats  Grin
Since the value is in the coin it self, not in digital transaction like selling 'bitcoin certificate', you may be just about the only Bitcoin seller that Ebay can't touch.
If they still banned you... that's real douchebaggery.

In June, I tried and sold several Bitcoin certificates on Ebay.
I just got scammed in 1 occasion, by user 'jingkam'. Wipes out most of the profit.

Well, good luck!
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September 18, 2011, 08:05:05 AM
 #13

@Casascius

On your auction you should explain to newbies how to turn the private key into a digital bitcoin.


I give this a 1 out of 10 for troll effort.

Just in case you are being serious, it is quite the issue he would need to avoid in the mentioning of anything of the sale being for the purpose of acquiring a 'digital' good.....

If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter 'now', then you should come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system. - GA
It is being worked on by smart people. -DamienBlack
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September 18, 2011, 12:17:26 PM
 #14

I think you should be safe from ebays virtual currency (Bitcoin) policy, since you are supplying a physical coin that is properly listed.

If any charge-backs are attempted and because you are tracking the delivery of the physical token... I think you're going to be a-ok.

I personally would also sell them with no returns flag turned on, but your a nice guy it seems and have it set to allow returns Wink

These look so cool I think I will be buying some soon.



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September 18, 2011, 06:15:32 PM
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I think you should be safe from ebays virtual currency (Bitcoin) policy, since you are supplying a physical coin that is properly listed.

If any charge-backs are attempted and because you are tracking the delivery of the physical token... I think you're going to be a-ok.

I personally would also sell them with no returns flag turned on, but your a nice guy it seems and have it set to allow returns Wink

These look so cool I think I will be buying some soon.





Sooner, or later, you will be burned selling virtual currency on ebay.  If the amounts are smaller, there is less incentive to do fraud.  As the value of the virtual part of the sale rises, so will fraud. 

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September 18, 2011, 07:38:11 PM
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Mike,

I think this is a great way to start to distribute the idea of Bitcoins to the general public - that is, those not in the choir already.  I expect and I think you should expect to get burned by this so I would suggest you take steps to minimize the amount you do get burned (charge enough to cover the fraudulent charge backs you will most certainly get, etc.)  It would be so much easier for you to just sell out all your coins to those who already have Bitcoins as I suspect you could eventually do, but that would not serve the larger purpose of getting the word out, right?  I totally applaud your efforts here especially since they are being taken at such personal financial risk.
 
Keep up the fantastic work!

PS I am getting my next order together.  Will PM you with the details soon.

Burt

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
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September 18, 2011, 08:47:13 PM
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So after eBay takes its cut, I am not much ahead.

It will pale in comparison to the losses you are going to experience once the charge backs by the scammers start to happen.. 

If the seller is able to prove he shipped a physical item via a USPS tracking number, will paypal not side with the seller on a dispute?   However on a digital-only transfer of bitcoins, I would expect paypal to side with the buyer

From my recent experience with PP they will side with the scammer almost every time out of the ten or so that did me one was rejected. What is guaranteed to happen is as soon as claim is filed the money comes out of your PP account till they decide if the scammers claim is valid with the most common claim being my account was hacked and I did not purchase the item this one gets approved by PP every time, again in my experience with it others may have a happier one than I had but I doubt it.

were you shipping a physical item and providing ebay/paypal with the tracking number?  or were you sending bitcoins digitally?

I was selling one cent coin with bonus bitcoin with the purchase it does not matter to them they side with scammer like I have said you can provide them all the proof you want once scammer claims hacked account your toast and the money is gone.

Did you shipped the one cent and provide the tracking number? When Paypal raised the claim, you can just provide tracking number and shipping information. How did it went?
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September 18, 2011, 08:47:38 PM
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I sold almost 3k worth of bitcoins back in June when they peaked and never had one chargeback. I must have got lucky I guess.
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September 18, 2011, 09:53:13 PM
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Why not have them provide their address in eBay messages, then provide the blockexplorer link?
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September 19, 2011, 05:23:09 AM
 #20

Dream on that is not how it ends up working should be how it is but does not happen that way.

Sooner, or later, you will be burned selling virtual currency on ebay.  If the amounts are smaller, there is less incentive to do fraud.  As the value of the virtual part of the sale rises, so will fraud. 

That might be the way with a virtual currency, but I think he will be safe since he is selling a physical token... I personally think he should only deal with the product as a physical item with ebay... the fact that it has a BTC attached to it should never even come into play in any charge-back situations.
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