SEEMS LIKE LARGE BTC HOLDERS TRYING TO KEEP PRICE AROUND $800

[MatTheCat]

do you even know what QE is?

I have a vague idea. Please enlighten me oh wise one with your American libertarian dogma on Fed money printing and explain it's relevance to this discussion.

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[adamstgBit]

do you even know what QE is?

I have a vague idea. Please enlighten me oh wise one with your American libertarian dogma on Fed money printing and explain it's relevance to this discussion.

well you keep saying bitcoin market is highly maniplauted

you think 1-3% interest rate is free market action?

QE is literally pumping billions of freshly created money out of thin air a week into the stock market to keep it from imploding.

that is manipulation!

[MatTheCat]

well you keep saying bitcoin market is highly maniplauted

you think 1-3% interest rate is free market action?

QE is literally pumping billions of freshly created money out of thin air a week into the stock market to keep it from imploding.

that is manipulation!

Damn right it is. It is manipulation on a immense scale that actually represents the foundations of the global petrodollar economy.

But how does that change the fact that Bitcoin is a cornered market and likely to become even more cornered as time goes on?

[adamstgBit]

well you keep saying bitcoin market is highly maniplauted

you think 1-3% interest rate is free market action?

QE is literally pumping billions of freshly created money out of thin air a week into the stock market to keep it from imploding.

that is manipulation!

Damn right it is. It is manipulation on a immense scale that actually represents the foundations of the global petrodollar economy.

But how does that change the fact that Bitcoin is a cornered market and likely to become even more cornered as time goes on?

death and taxes

[davidgdg]

Bitcoin can't be "manipulated". A lot of folks on here are pretty clueless about how the market works.

Wot are you talking about? If owned 100'000 BTC, and had 10 million USD liquidity on the exchanges are you trying to tell me that I couldn't pimp this market around like a bitch. I could ramp or crash this market however I saw fit, at least until some bigger whales came along and moved against me. But if I was the biggest whale (i.e. 'Satoshi'/NSA/CIA), then I push this market any way I wanted and nobody would have the power to stand in my way.

Or perhaps I am missing something. Perhaps you are a grade A Free Markets 101 student. Please enlighten me how the utterly cornered Bitcoin market can't be manipulated?

Undoubtedly a large holder of BTC (or anything else) can move the market by selling. And a large buyer can move it by buying. But how does the fact that they have moved the market enable them to make some special profit that is not available to the rest of us?

The only thing I can think of is that the big seller  takes out a separate leveraged short position before he starts selling  and closes it as he completes selling. Is that what you have in mind? (but how practical is that in the BTC market, given the lack of a developed futures market?)

[eoJ]

Bitcoin can't be "manipulated". A lot of folks on here are pretty clueless about how the market works.

The only thing I can think of is that the big seller  takes out a separate leveraged short position before he starts selling  and closes it as he completes selling. Is that what you have in mind? (but how practical is that in the BTC market, given the lack of a developed futures market?)

Well, there's stuff like Plus500, that's a legitimate company that offers leveraged Bitcoin/Litecoin shorting.

[MatTheCat]

Undoubtedly a large holder of BTC (or anything else) can move the market by selling. And a large buyer can move it by buying. But how does the fact that they have moved the market enable them to make some special profit that is not available to the rest of us?

The only thing I can think of is that the big seller  takes out a separate leveraged short position before he starts selling  and closes it as he completes selling. Is that what you have in mind? (but how practical is that in the BTC market, given the lack of a developed futures market?)

Investors are a bit like school playground arselickers, in that they always try to align themselves with the prevailing attitudes or fads (trade momentum). Often, there is a kid (or kids) who pack way heavier a punch than all the rest who have an entourage of supporters/arselickers, ready to bend and fold to suit the whims of this schoolyard bully, in order that they don't end up on the wrong side of him and take a beating. If all the other kids acted in unison against the school yard bully however, it would be he who took the whipping, but this tends not to happen in the schoolyard or in life in general. The only way the influence of a schoolyard bully can be normalised is if other equally heavy kids enter the school playground.

Going back to Bitcoin, using his much greater buying and selling power, a Bitcoin bully can easily sway the buying and selling decisions of all the market arse-lickers. He can trick the market arselickers into buying after he has ramped the market, selling after he has plunged the market, or into not selling or buying much at all, if that should suit his purposes. He can get away with this indefinitely, so long as no bigger bullies come into the market.

[mgburks77]

Know exactly what you mean

Try trading in one of the smaller exchanges with a pretty decent bankroll where you can move the price a bit. You can literally watch the exchange price being manipulated back to around what's on the other exchanges.

[igorr]

all mining company has left of the game, and bitcoin is lost investors, its game over

[mgburks77]

well one thing is for sure, there is a lot more than what meets the eye going on with crypto currencies. it's not as much of a free market as I'd hoped lol

[MatTheCat]

well one thing is for sure, there is a lot more than what meets the eye going on with crypto currencies. it's not as much of a free market as I'd hoped lol

Yeah...aside from Bitcoin being a totally cornered market. Aside from the possibility that Bitcoin is/was an NSA initiative to begin with, and aside from the fact that the exchanges (where the price is determined) are totally unregulated and for the most part all seem rather dodgy, there are these technical issues that very few people truly understand and the associated implications of Bitcoin being announced as 'hacked' in some way over night. Just cos some Bitcoin devs put out a public statement saying that everything is fine, doesn't necessarily make it so. History is littered with cases of collapsed institutions and reassuring public statements that preceded the event.

It would be a bit similar to the gold trade in the middle ages, if we could assume that there was ever any real fear amongst holders of Gold, of alchemists discovering the forumla to turn lead into gold. If there were ever any rumours in circulation that some alchemist had achieved this, the gold market would be awaiting events to occur (or not occur) with bated breath.

[mgburks77]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if crypto turns out to be a covert US effort to make the USD and the current failed reserve currency system obsolete and replace it with a digital currency protocol that they have built all kinds of controls and backdoors into.

That's pretty much what they did with electronic computer and phone networks, why not do the same thing with electronically implemented financial networks?

Why do this though?:

The Bitcoin could work in much the same way that the Keyne's Bancor was supposed to work to mitigate the Triffen dilemma. China has been pushing to institute special drawing rights to negate the negative effects on the rest of the world of using the US domestic currency as the world's reserve currency (possible only due to the so-called Triffen dilemma). The USD's use as the world's reserve currency allows the US to keep borrowing and printing dollars while the negative effects of doing so are diverted into various externalities that the rest of the world absorbs, thus allowing the USG and the economy it controls to benefit from devaluing it's own currency. However the jig is up and the world is demanding SDR.

However, what if instead of the Bancor or SDR, which the US would not control, a digital substitute that was controllable was instituted as the unit of international monetary exchange? China and Russia would never go for it unless the USG wasn't behind the currency. Thus the tale of Satoshi Nakamoto is born.

It would be a work of near-genius if that was what was going on.

[MatTheCat]

It would be a work of near-genius if that was what was going on.

Neat little alternative paradigm but that might just be one of many possible aspects or avenues for the NSA to put out a digital currency which they secretly control, be it through back doors or even simply by owning a controlling stake in the system.

We know that the crypto-algorithms used in Bitcoin were developed by US intelligence and we know that the NSA were researching crypto-currencies before most people had even heard of the internet. The more I think about it, the more likely I think it is that Bitcoin was created by a branch of NSA or something similar other than by some lone Japanese cryptographic maverick. As I have already said, these institutions have all the funding, all the expertise, all the resources, and all the motivation to continually be at the avant-garde of technological innovation.

[mgburks77]

It would be a work of near-genius if that was what was going on.

Neat little alternative paradigm but that might just be one of many possible aspects or avenues for the NSA to put out a digital currency which they secretly control, be it through back doors or even simply by owning a controlling stake in the system.

We know that the crypto-algorithms used in Bitcoin were developed by US intelligence and we know that the NSA were researching crypto-currencies before most people had even heard of the internet. The more I think about it, the more likely I think it is that Bitcoin was created by a branch of NSA or something similar other than by some lone Japanese cryptographic maverick. As I have already said, these institutions have all the funding, all the expertise, all the resources, and all the motivation to continually be at the avant-garde of technological innovation.

Yeah, cryptography is without a doubt the provenance of intelligence agencies and
one person can't create something like that, frankly the idea that an anonymous individual created it is ridiculous. Simply doing enough testing to get a barely functional prototype out in the wild would require 1000s of man hours. I dismiss that notion out of hand.

Consider this, economic activity is a form of communication, it's how one segment of society signals its needs for resources to another segment of society. Just as we aren't going back to the pony express to communicate over distance we aren't turning our back on the idea of digital currency. It's going to happen, just as the widespread adoption of other major technical developments was a foregone conclusion, the only question is how. Clearly very few organizations have or can acquire the specialized resources necessary for such an effort, this means a state is behind it.

I've been thinking about why an intelligence agency would do such a thing and I think the theory I outlined is a good possibility. We've been misusing keynesianism by using our own domestic currency, for the reasons previously stated, as the world's reserve currency instead of instituting an objective international unit of account, such as Keyne's Bancor. This allows us to devalue our own currency while continuing to borrow yet defer the negative effects to the rest of the world by imposing very expensive external costs on the rest of the world's economic development via repressive economic scheming coupled with interventionism to counter resistance. This "guns and butter" principle is the basis of our economic philosophy for domination of global markets. However, the new financial system that began with the Nixon shock and came out of the demise of Bretton Woods is starting to break down and has resulted in an economic meltdown of epic proportion. This is causing big problems to emerge, politically speaking.

Introducing a new electronic international unit of account that is rigged with backdoors would solve a host of problems in the the economic and diplomatic arenas, yet allow US to maintain covert control if things go south.

So...it's gotta be a gag, however, Russia and China obviously didn't buy it because both banned cryptos as soon as they figured out what was going on.

Still digital currency isn't going away, and for this I am extremely interested in it and think it can be of use. All this doesn't mean that cryptos don't have all of the possibilities being imagined now. We just need one that is provably not compromised by any state agency.

[davidgdg]

Undoubtedly a large holder of BTC (or anything else) can move the market by selling. And a large buyer can move it by buying. But how does the fact that they have moved the market enable them to make some special profit that is not available to the rest of us?

The only thing I can think of is that the big seller  takes out a separate leveraged short position before he starts selling  and closes it as he completes selling. Is that what you have in mind? (but how practical is that in the BTC market, given the lack of a developed futures market?)

Investors are a bit like school playground arselickers, in that they always try to align themselves with the prevailing attitudes or fads (trade momentum). Often, there is a kid (or kids) who pack way heavier a punch than all the rest who have an entourage of supporters/arselickers, ready to bend and fold to suit the whims of this schoolyard bully, in order that they don't end up on the wrong side of him and take a beating. If all the other kids acted in unison against the school yard bully however, it would be he who took the whipping, but this tends not to happen in the schoolyard or in life in general. The only way the influence of a schoolyard bully can be normalised is if other equally heavy kids enter the school playground.

Going back to Bitcoin, using his much greater buying and selling power, a Bitcoin bully can easily sway the buying and selling decisions of all the market arse-lickers. He can trick the market arselickers into buying after he has ramped the market, selling after he has plunged the market, or into not selling or buying much at all, if that should suit his purposes. He can get away with this indefinitely, so long as no bigger bullies come into the market.

I'm not sure the metaphor really explains anything.

[MatTheCat]

I'm not sure the metaphor really explains anything.

Markets follow the trend. In cornered markets, the big players are the trend. If they know this, and they know that they can use their buying or selling power to push all the small flies in a certain direction, they can do so and then take the rug out from under everyone elses feet.

Take the bounce back from $520. How do you know that the whale(s) who bought the first 3000 coins to take price up to $600, weren't selling them again all the way up to $712, to suckers who were piling in on the rally that the whales had created.

Is it really so hard to understand?

[igorr]

now 800 usd is history

[akujin]

I bought at 796.8 and i'm thinking about selling it now at 800... Just enough to pay for the 0.4% trading fee i lost.. LOL!
Seems like btc-e is not getting any higher than 800  

LOL! I'm glad I sold before the crash! Jajajaja! 

[chesthing]

I wish I was that quick, took me until $758 to wake up, good for you. Hope you bought back in the low 4's and doubled your coins.