Bring back the newbie jail with changes

[AverageGlabella]

I think it is time to bring back newbie jail even though it was removed for being ineffective in the past I think we have the framework and features to now moderate it effectively as well as the merit system to assure only good people get out. In the past you had to wait for 4 hours and you would automatically get out of the newbie jail. Of course it failed as a spammer with the promise of free coins from bounties or the prospect of getting accepted on a signature campaign does not mind waiting 4 hours.

Instead I propose we replace this 4 hour criteria with merit instead. The merit is the perfect solution to finding good quality members who deserve to get out of the beginners board and be allowed to participate as a normal member. With this proposed change I would also propose setting a merit requirement for becoming a jr member. 5 merits would be reasonable I think and would allow them then to leave the newbie jail. I think this could not only prevent the spam from being spread out in diverse boards and prevent this annoyance that we are currently having with the bump bots and bumping services but it would only allow quality members out. Yes the newbie board will likely be bombarded by shit posts but I'm sure a few merit sources would be willing to adventure in there and find good quality posters and reward them.

I think introducing two newbie jails one for the main forum and another for the alt coin section to prevent mixing of topics. Would this not solve all the problems with the altcoin section? We would no longer have bump bots or bumping services without them having to at least contribute to the community and lets be honest the people who are registering these accounts for bumping aren't the type to contribute at all and will take the path thats easiest for them.

5 merits is not too hard to achieve but it will prevent the majority of people who are here just for bounties and contribute nothing. The restrictions that were set before were annoying but I do not think thats the reason they the newbie jail was removed it was removed because it was ineffective. I really do think that this approach would have an immediate impact on the spam.

Having just two sections could result in a lot of posts in these sections and it might be difficult to find good quality posters but what we could do is include child boards in these newbie jails too. It would operate just like any other part of the forum but would be predominantly newbies. I would suggest not adding any bounties, announcements or anything like that as child boards.  

I have made my thoughts clear with some previous posts of mine that the Bitcoin Discussion and other boards are completely irrelevant now and posting there is just useless. Posting interesting discussion there just gets buried because it takes more than 5 minutes to think of a reply and address all the points so it just gets buried by these simple question threads or threads which say "x celebrity endorses bitcoin" and it then proceeds to get spammed with "this guy knows what hes talking about" or "to the moon"

We need to be actively looking for a solution because Serious Discussion just is not active enough to have any meaningful discussion with enough diverse opinions which I assume is because of how much of an impact signature campaigns are on the members of this forums posting habits. There is just no incentive to post there for people who want to make money and this might just be me but I want to earn off people who are earning in signature campaigns but excluding a select few it just does not happen because they could be elsewhere on the forum posting to earn money.

Whats everyones opinion on this?


EDIT: Polls can't be added to an existing topic?

[AverageGlabella]

I'm just going to include SaltySpitoon's post here as I think he highlights what was wrong with the newbie jail before.

There is no reasonable limit that we could place that would prevent spam. Newbie jail would create a 4 hour bottleneck, and I dont mean that everytime a spammer/scammer wanted to create a new account, it would take them an additional 4 hours, I mean as a whole working system, 4 hours after it was implemented, things would be back to how they are. Its just creating a que line which means that spammer who created 5 accounts, will just have to wait a few hours, and while they are waiting, why not make some more accounts so there is a steady stream?

The reason it wont be implemented back again, is it has provably done nothing to prevent people from making new accounts for a malicious purposes, but it does discourage actual new members to join.

Replacing these restrictions with a merit requirement would be a better way of going about it I think. It wouldn't discourage actual users that want to contribute and would prevent new accounts being created for malicious purposes.

He highlights perfectly why the last newbie jail was flawed it required a queue as he refers to it for people to just idle and then continue on their spamming ways. At least with my suggestion we would have people actively trying to contribute to the forum in order to get out and hopefully they continue along that line.

This would absolutely reduce moderation and encourage good quality posts from the get go. Even if this only prevents 10% of our current problems I think its something worth implementing.  

This would prevent 90% of bumping bots and those that do get through and bump topics would then be banned and they would have to start over again.

[pugman]

Topic has been discussed many a times and has been turned down.

- Not every poster is a good poster from beginning. They don't always post "quality" stuff.

- It is safe to say that half of them don't know what bitcoin is,they hardly know/care about this forum.

- Even a lot of experienced members don't know the basics.

- Merit has been introduced for reducing spamming and there has been a little improvement.

- There are only 80 merit sources. They don't have the time to read each and every post. They just merit a good post if they come across one.

The idea won't be effective. It would a pain in the ass.

[AverageGlabella]

Topic has been discussed many a times and has been turned down.

- Not every poster is a good poster from beginning. They don't always post "quality" stuff.

- It is safe to say that half of them don't know what bitcoin is,they hardly know/care about this forum.

- Even a lot of experienced members don't know the basics.

- Merit has been introduced for reducing spamming and there has been a little improvement.

- There are only 80 merit sources. They don't have the time to read each and every post. They just merit a good post if they come across one.

The idea won't be effective. It would a pain in the ass.

1. Then they shall remain there until they are good enough.

2. Then why do we want them posting garbage in the main areas of the forum?

3. Thats an existing issue which we can't really fix.

4. Exactly and combining this with a newbie jail would mean that only quality members get out.

5. This should probably be improved but having the potential of good quality posts in the newbie jail could mean they don't have to scour through numerous different boards in order to find quality posts.  


Why do you not find it would be effective? The only reason issues that you have brought up are number 3 and 4. I do not think that number 3 is really related to this specific problem and anyone who does not know the basics will be found out by not receiving any merit and if they are spamming will eventually get banned.

Number 4 is probably the biggest issue. We would probably need more merit sources able to determine a good quality poster from a good one for this to be effective but I do believe that the merit sources are constantly being added to and anyone is allowed to make an application to become one.

[alani123]

My suggestion is to remove bumping powers from newbies and potentially Jr. Members. This way they will be able to respond but it won't shoot threads up so no new accounts will be created for spam-promotion through spam-bumping. Currently such accounts are created faster than the mods can ban them.

Also introduce reCaptchas per each post for newbies. Because automated tools can easily beat time restrictions. Such posts are made much faster than the bots can delete them.

[AverageGlabella]

My suggestion is to remove bumping powers from newbies and potentially Jr. Members. This way they will be able to respond but it won't shoot threads up so no new accounts will be created for spam-promotion through spam-bumping. Currently such accounts are created faster than the mods can ban them.

Also introduce reCaptchas per each post for newbies. Because automated tools can easily beat time restrictions. Such posts are made much faster than the bots can delete them.

Bumping bots are a problem but they are really only part of the problem. I think bringing back the newbie jail with these modifications would address the bumping bots as well as those who are spamming in various different areas. Bitcoin Discussion is worthless right now you just can't have a decent discussion and not enough people are participating in the serious discussion section rendering that pretty useless. Just go there and check and you will find that its the same people with the same opinions and views there all the time. I came to the forum for diverse opinions and hopefully new knowledge which currently you just can't get anywhere either because of the spam or because not enough people are interested in not earning from their posts.

Recaptchas could be added but I don't it would be necessary with the proposed changes and besides if we really wanted to we could combine the two to have a fort knox of a newbie jail.  

[pugman]

1. Then they shall remain there until they are good enough.

2. Then why do we want them posting garbage in the main areas of the forum?

3. Thats an existing issue which we can't really fix.

4. Exactly and combining this with a newbie jail would mean that only quality members get out.

5. This should probably be improved but having the potential of good quality posts in the newbie jail could mean they don't have to scour through numerous different boards in order to find quality posts.  

1. That is horrible. Some users come here in search of help. Everyone doesn't know what a bounty is.

2. Not everyone posts garbage. They just might be new to the concept of posting. Give them a break. A newbie jail won't bring any good posters. People would rather stay away from the forum than trying to impress people who they don't know at all, and it is most importantly all for nothing. 

3. You can. Use the "Report to Moderator" button.

4. This would make things worse. Imagine number of people sulking about it. People still haven't gotten over from the merit grenade which was 5 months ago.

5. theymos chooses merit sources very wisely and improving it would take a lot of time.

Why do you not find it would be effective? The only reason issues that you have brought up are number 3 and 4. I do not think that number 3 is really related to this specific problem and anyone who does not know the basics will be found out by not receiving any merit and if they are spamming will eventually get banned.

Number 4 is probably the biggest issue. We would probably need more merit sources able to determine a good quality poster from a good one for this to be effective but I do believe that the merit sources are constantly being added to and anyone is allowed to make an application to become one.

Read above. I have explained why. Spamming won't lead to a ban. Had that been the case, the forum would have been clean.

Also people merit posts that are either good or they like it. They don't usually merit the average posts. So one in every hundred would rank up.

[AverageGlabella]

1. That is horrible. Some users come here in search of help. Everyone doesn't know what a bounty is.

2. Not everyone posts garbage. They just might be new to the concept of posting. Give them a break. A newbie jail won't bring any good posters. People would rather stay away from the forum than trying to impress people who they don't know at all, and it is most importantly all for nothing. 

3. You can. Use the "Report to Moderator" button.

4. This would make things worse. Imagine number of people sulking about it. People still haven't gotten over from the merit grenade which was 5 months ago.

5. theymos chooses merit sources very wisely and improving it would take a lot of time.

Read above. I have explained why. Spamming won't lead to a ban. Had that been the case, the forum would have been clean.

Also people merit posts that are either good or they like it. They don't usually merit the average posts. So one in every hundred would rank up.

1. How is it horrible? If they want to come here for help then they can do that in the newbies board which would  then result in helpful replies by hopefully other newbies which would lead to them receiving merit and be on their way of getting out.

2. Its not about impressing people either. Not everyone posts garbage is safe to say but we have a real problem here in the forum which is resulting in older members from disappearing. Its been said time and time again that the forum is declining and I'm not blaming the moderation theres just too many people interested in Bitcoin and altcoins. The ICO boom has contributed a lot to the problem that we are having to deal with. Currently several boards are rendered useless due to the spam.

3. Sure but hundreds if thousands of posts go undetected each day. Reporting is currently doing nothing absolutely nothing. I do not really report myself but I know theres several people like bitart and loyvce that dedicate their time in reporting but its just not enough. Theres probably others doing it too but its not working. At least a newbie jail would mean that the main sections would be usable because they currently are not.

4. People are going to sulk about anything that hinders them which in my opinion is a good thing. People whining about how the new system sucks because they cant rank up just goes to show that its working as intended. Why do we care if people are complaining because they aren't contributing. Sure we care about the legitimate concerns voiced but currently the meta board is filled with people sulking about the condition of the forum and I'm one of them. I do believe it's perfectly fair to complain about this though as the forum is becoming unusable at this point.

5. That's fair enough but the newbie jail would not have to be implemented right away but could be put on the back burner and eventually introduced when theres enough merit sources. To be fair though to be able to identify merit sources suitable for the newbie jail it would likely have to be implemented before to determine good people for the job. 

[pugman]

1. How is it horrible? If they want to come here for help then they can do that in the newbies board which would  then result in helpful replies by hopefully other newbies which would lead to them receiving merit and be on their way of getting out.

2. Its not about impressing people either. Not everyone posts garbage is safe to say but we have a real problem here in the forum which is resulting in older members from disappearing. Its been said time and time again that the forum is declining and I'm not blaming the moderation theres just too many people interested in Bitcoin and altcoins. The ICO boom has contributed a lot to the problem that we are having to deal with. Currently several boards are rendered useless due to the spam.

3. Sure but hundreds if thousands of posts go undetected each day. Reporting is currently doing nothing absolutely nothing. I do not really report myself but I know theres several people like bitart and loyvce that dedicate their time in reporting but its just not enough. Theres probably others doing it too but its not working. At least a newbie jail would mean that the main sections would be usable because they currently are not.

4. People are going to sulk about anything that hinders them which in my opinion is a good thing. People whining about how the new system sucks because they cant rank up just goes to show that its working as intended. Why do we care if people are complaining because they aren't contributing. Sure we care about the legitimate concerns voiced but currently the meta board is filled with people sulking about the condition of the forum and I'm one of them. I do believe it's perfectly fair to complain about this though as the forum is becoming unusable at this point.

5. That's fair enough but the newbie jail would not have to be implemented right away but could be put on the back burner and eventually introduced when theres enough merit sources. To be fair though to be able to identify merit sources suitable for the newbie jail it would likely have to be implemented before to determine good people for the job. 

1. I guess that is plausible but I doubt theymos would like this.

2. Dude, the members left in 2014 itself. There are hardly any real posters here, there were some awesome posters, better than nullius too. Well even he has disappeared.

3. Yeah just 2 people reporting won't do anything. Just go visit the altcoins section and you'll see for yourself.

4. That's true. No one cares about the shitposters and its good and bad at the same time. I feel sorry for people who can't speak good enough English and they are discriminated for it. But guess they have to deal with it. Your arguments are very well structured but theymos decided to take down newbie jail because a lot of users felt burdened by it not because it didn't work. People shouldn't be forced to do such things.

5. Well then the newbie jail shall be introduced once the new forum is set up, so wait till 3018. 

[AverageGlabella]

I'm sure a lot of people feel burdened by merit itself and indirectly it acts as a newbie jail or rank jail. I do not see the issue of creating a section with child boards to suit all the needs of newbies to participate in. I would argue that their questions and queries would be easier to find and be answered better this way.

The newbie board right now is just rammed pack full of random topics relating to all sorts and introducing child boards and providing them with an entirely functional section wouldn't prevent them from engaging in the forum too much. theymos has already acknowledged that the spam right now is out of control and thats why serious discussion was introduced but I think that serious discussions quality should be seen everywhere and I think a newbie jail is the way to go about it.

Members are going to come and go regardless of the forums quality but I do think that the decline has a little bit of an impact on some of the more thoughtful members leaving. There still remains a few posters that take their time and come up with a response but they are normally drowned out by the numerous newbies spamming.

I attempted to make a thread in the altcoin boards and quite swiftly decided against the idea and that it was just pointless trying to have a meaningful discusson there as all people want to do is join bounties and know which projects are going to the "moon"

[BTCforJoe]

We all know newbies are annoying most of the time, but there are some that outshine others. When I first came to these forums, I mimicked my posting habits in other forums... Mainly short simple posts with a flair of sarcasm. I came to learn more about Bitcoin, as I was already late to the gravy train. Then I discovered that I could earn some of it as a reward for posting. You'll see, based on my history, that I started off in the micro earnings section, and then progressed towards the shitposting sections. At some point, I realized that I was actually learning more and more about cryptocurrency, and my focus shifted from solely posting to earn to more actively becoming engaged in topics about bitcoin and other altcoins.

If this newbie jail was implemented at the time, I wouldn't have had the opportunity to progress to the forum member I am today. In fact, given your proposal for this merit milestone, it would have encouraged me to spam more throughout the boards in search of merit rewards.

I think the solution is counterproductive, and the merit system that was implemented is finally starting to take effect. Yeah, we're getting a shit ton of newbies asking the same questions about how to earn merit, but the introduction of this newbie jail will create even more spam, albeit isolated spam within the newbie jail.

Honestly, an implementation like this would an extreme amount of unnecessary burden on current mods, given that they now have to weed out the newbies' posts alongside shit posts.

I think just a few more months of the merit system will truly show us how effective it is, so for now, I prefer to remain patient and deal with the gradual decline of alt accounts.

[qwertyup23]

It's like your applying negative reinforcement upon the newbies instead of actually rewarding them due to having good quality posts (which is the merit system). Given your proposal, newbies would tend to spam even more in order to get out of the 'newbie jail'.
I mean, when the merit system was implemented, a lot of users spammed and made similar threads in order to gain merit. Punishing them with a newbie jail system would only make the situations a lot worse since the merit system is actually taking into effect slowly.

Not to mention, the jail system would entail conflicts and its actual process may take into the opposite effect from what you stated.

[MainIbem]

What about pre-enrollment of members?  We should create a pre-enrollment to newbie. It should be a board for training,  so to speak, of new and old members needing to improve the quality of their posts instead of a jail. What do you think?

[AverageGlabella]

We all know newbies are annoying most of the time, but there are some that outshine others. When I first came to these forums, I mimicked my posting habits in other forums... Mainly short simple posts with a flair of sarcasm. I came to learn more about Bitcoin, as I was already late to the gravy train. Then I discovered that I could earn some of it as a reward for posting. You'll see, based on my history, that I started off in the micro earnings section, and then progressed towards the shitposting sections. At some point, I realized that I was actually learning more and more about cryptocurrency, and my focus shifted from solely posting to earn to more actively becoming engaged in topics about bitcoin and other altcoins.

If this newbie jail was implemented at the time, I wouldn't have had the opportunity to progress to the forum member I am today. In fact, given your proposal for this merit milestone, it would have encouraged me to spam more throughout the boards in search of merit rewards.

I think the solution is counterproductive, and the merit system that was implemented is finally starting to take effect. Yeah, we're getting a shit ton of newbies asking the same questions about how to earn merit, but the introduction of this newbie jail will create even more spam, albeit isolated spam within the newbie jail.

Honestly, an implementation like this would an extreme amount of unnecessary burden on current mods, given that they now have to weed out the newbies' posts alongside shit posts.

I think just a few more months of the merit system will truly show us how effective it is, so for now, I prefer to remain patient and deal with the gradual decline of alt accounts.

I don't know why it would encourage more spam? Currently we have an issue with bump bots which several topics per week are being opened about and theres just no stopping them no matter how much you report them. Do you really think an increase in newbie spam will be worse than the bump bots? Besides newbies spam currently now in the hope of getting merit. It's no different other than it would be confined to one section. The newbie jail would reward quality users and if child boards were introduced for like newbie technical support they could still get answers without burying more complex matters in the main boards.

It's like your applying negative reinforcement upon the newbies instead of actually rewarding them due to having good quality posts (which is the merit system). Given your proposal, newbies would tend to spam even more in order to get out of the 'newbie jail'.
I mean, when the merit system was implemented, a lot of users spammed and made similar threads in order to gain merit. Punishing them with a newbie jail system would only make the situations a lot worse since the merit system is actually taking into effect slowly.

Not to mention, the jail system would entail conflicts and its actual process may take into the opposite effect from what you stated.

How? I don't understand the assumption that newbies would spam more than they already are. They still need merit to earn more rewards and that means they spam in order to get merits anyway. The merit system is taking into effect sure but this wouldn't punish those who earn merit anyway as merit is an insignificant number of merit which is easily achieved.

And it does reward good quality posts so I'm not sure why you believe it doesn't thats literally the suggestion to weed out the poor posters of the main sections and reward those who are willing to put thought into their replies.

What conflicts are you talking about? What like the ones where theres several newbies running around breaking the rules via bot bumping and people are calling out ICOs for using bot bumping which leads to more spam down the line.

Newbie jail is not an actual jail you know theres not going to drug wars.

What about pre-enrollment of members?  We should create a pre-enrollment to newbie. It should be a board for training,  so to speak, of new and old members needing to improve the quality of their posts instead of a jail. What do you think?

Thats just changing the word jail from training though. How would they progress out of their pre enrollment area? Merits I assume which is literally what I am proposing. If you make it voluntary then the majority of people are not going to use it like they do not actively seek out to improve their posts now and bumping bots would still be allowed to roam around freely. 

[krishnaverma]

My suggestion is to remove bumping powers from newbies and potentially Jr. Members. This way they will be able to respond but it won't shoot threads up so no new accounts will be created for spam-promotion through spam-bumping. Currently such accounts are created faster than the mods can ban them.

Also introduce reCaptchas per each post for newbies. Because automated tools can easily beat time restrictions. Such posts are made much faster than the bots can delete them.

This is a good suggestion in my opinion. The preventive measures should not require personal intervention from staff as  it will  consumes a lot of time and is impractical. However, I am not in much favor of too much restrictions on new members because that may cause them to move to other platforms. There are spammers but we cannot punish all new members for this including members joining this forum with good intentions.